1. #1261
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    That went over your head. He is saying you shouldn't expect to progress in Normals by just logging into the game. Pretty much what this entire thread has been going on for over 60 pages about.
    Nope.

    He's said "dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game". And I said, "When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds."

    No one is saying " I should be competitive with other guilds by virtue of knowing my login password". The guilds that want to progress for fun aren't trying to be competitive.

  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Not if you talk about the very top content, heroic raids. But yes, everyone that tries enough should be able to complete NORMAL raidsd, NORMAL, as for NORMAL people, you know, that MDEIUDM difficulty.

    Funny that you try to compare NORMAL raids to GLADIATOR in arena.
    You are basically saying that if you can log into the game you should be able to down normal modes. No entitlement there, you must really miss Wrath.

  3. #1263
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Do you know what that is P R I D E? It's something people usually take in their hobbies especially social ones.
    The problem is that for bad players its not a social game. The things available to them have zero social interaction or sense of progression. They have no opportunity to take pride in their hobby.

    Unlike a lot of people here I'm not asking for a new raid mode. I'm asking for a different difficulty curve. Honestly, the curve presented in Wrath worked very well. I know that when I was new, but managed to kill 6 bosses in ICC 25 I was happy and proud. And I wanted more, and wanted to become a better player. It was great, and I eventually did become a better player.

  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Not if you talk about the very top content, heroic raids. But yes, everyone that tries enough should be able to complete NORMAL raidsd, NORMAL, as for NORMAL people, you know, that MDEIUDM difficulty.

    Funny that you try to compare NORMAL raids to GLADIATOR in arena.
    The problem is they don't try.

  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Likewise, you buy a game not to complete it but to TRY to complete it.
    yes for the challenge which is why you ask your friends if the game is any good. They say hell yes, its so damn hard but fun and you buy it. Or they say no its boring i beat it in 2 days and you dont buy it.

  6. #1266
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    What if I wanted 5 mans that were harder than the current ones, but not as difficult as challenge modes?

    What would the answer to that be?
    They gave you the answer in cata. It drove millons of people away.

  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    What I meant was after 5.3 bump Tier 14 ilvl to 510ish.
    Why?
    Normal Throne is tuned for people in 489-496 gear
    Throne LFR drops 502
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Nope.

    He's said "dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game". And I said, "When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds."

    No one is saying " I should be competitive with other guilds by virtue of knowing my login password". The guilds that want to progress for fun aren't trying to be competitive.
    And if you are raiding for FUN why does it matter how many bosses you down? Isnt all of it fun?

  9. #1269
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    If you want unfair restictions on raiding there should be more insane shit like. To start ToT normal you must beat an ingame emulation of Battletoads. Holy shit Lei Shien Normal wouldn't even be started yet.

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    people take pride in how terrible they are?
    Seems to be like it in this thread.Some people going out of their way to prove (while refusing to give arguments of course) that most casuals are so bad it's actually unreasonable to expect them to do normal raiding.
    elitism used to be about raiders treating casuals like noobs,oh do times have changed,now it's casuals/normal raiders going out of their way to treat the majority of the playerbase like tards.

  11. #1271
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm pointing out those people did organized raiding at a difficulty level between LFR and current normal, and were apparently happy with it. Yes, some would be ok with LFR, but there were SO MANY of them (compared to the current crop of normal/heroic raiders) that if even a fraction of those players wanted something between LFR and normal, it could be significant.

    This is an argument against your unsupported assertion that few people would want that kind of tuning. So, given that there exists evidence that appears to work against your assertion, can you come up with some to bolster it?
    Things greatly changed when they were given a choice to choose between clearing normal content and LFR. How does your evidence works against my assumption?
    Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some quit the game from reasons not involved because raiding was too hard/too easy.
    Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some are still raiding normals and heroics.
    Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some have switched to LFR.
    Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some want beer league.

    I say that number of beer league players is not big. I am all for giving 4th difficulty but let's not pretend that it's a decision which will be for majority.

    Oh, yeah, out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH and 12 million players 4 million players quit. It's safe to say that people who quit are mostly people who DON'T raid.

  12. #1272
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Again stating stuff.But no explanation.What exactly makes raiding so hard?On top of that a personal attack,because that's the only way to give ''worth'' to your opinion,it's not like you have arguments right?
    Too many mechanics for average raiders to learn. Several of them being raid wide one shot (or almost one shot). For xample, Garalon crush, Wind Lord Wind bombs, Ambershaper amber explosion, horridon venom priests, council frost king skill, etc, etc, etc.

    And i am giving plenty of arguments, and data to back them up. You are just saying Normal raiding is easy and ppl should suck it up.

    So before asking for arguments, you should start looking in a mirror and do something besides giving your subjective impression.

  13. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Why?
    Normal Throne is tuned for people in 489-496 gear
    Throne LFR drops 502
    nevermind battlefield barrens allows them to solo facebleed grind out full 502 armor guaranteed at their own pace.

  14. #1274
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    So if i buy a new game and im not good at it then it should be nerfed?
    No - it should be designed with a better difficulty curve in the first place. Its a problem when over three fourths of your playerbase considers it too difficult.

  15. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    The problem is that for bad players its not a social game. The things available to them have zero social interaction or sense of progression. They have no opportunity to take pride in their hobby.

    Unlike a lot of people here I'm not asking for a new raid mode. I'm asking for a different difficulty curve. Honestly, the curve presented in Wrath worked very well. I know that when I was new, but managed to kill 6 bosses in ICC 25 I was happy and proud. And I wanted more, and wanted to become a better player. It was great, and I eventually did become a better player.
    Myself, i had a choice between becoming a better player and raiding heroics or doing normal raiding. I chose to get better and i got better because it was hard, i had no choice but to get better.

    With nerfs, there is no reason to get better, even if you feel like you got better, you didnt. You merely pull better numbers because of a nerf or being able to stand in fire without dying or having more gear because of the nerfed bosses you downed. You do not get better by nerfing content, the way to motivate a RAIDER is to give them a challenge and they will improve. Or like many on here they will quit citing it is not humanly possible for them.

  16. #1276
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You are basically saying that if you can log into the game you should be able to down normal modes. No entitlement there, you must really miss Wrath.
    You left out a part....

    Log into the game AND - wait for it - try

    No one is asking for a handout. What people are asking for is a version that they down that matches the skill and effort they can are are willing to put into it.

    See how that's different than your strawman? It was a half decent attempt though, I would still give you a golf clap for effort.

  17. #1277
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    LFR isn't raiding. It's solo play in a raid instance. They aren't the same thing. If you think that the LFR experience is the same as Normal mode or Heroic modes then I would submit you've never participated in LFR or progression raiding or both.
    What the hell are you talking about. I actually agree that LFR isn't raiding. But Blizzard counts people who do LFR as raiders, either we like it or not.
    And yes, you and me agree that LFR isn't raiding. But I bet there are loads of ppl who think LFR is raiding because then there wouldn't be millions of ppl in LFR.

  18. #1278
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Why?
    Normal Throne is tuned for people in 489-496 gear
    Throne LFR drops 502
    Because blizzard stupidly made LFR drop 502 gear when it really shouldn't, it makes the previous tier completely pointless. The previous tier really should have dropped 502 gear or 503 gear which is what ToT is currently tuned towards.

    One of the blues (might've been GC) already stated the first four bosses are tuned for 503? or 502, then it goes up after that because most raiders had valor upgrade 496 gear. Currently now new raiders do not have that luxury.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Myself, i had a choice between becoming a better player and raiding heroics or doing normal raiding. I chose to get better and i got better because it was hard, i had no choice but to get better.

    With nerfs, there is no reason to get better, even if you feel like you got better, you didnt. You merely pull better numbers because of a nerf or being able to stand in fire without dying or having more gear because of the nerfed bosses you downed. You do not get better by nerfing content, the way to motivate a RAIDER is to give them a challenge and they will improve. Or like many on here they will quit citing it is not humanly possible for them.
    I am not asking for nerfs. I am asking for future raids to have a better difficulty curve in future raids.

  20. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Too many mechanics for average raiders to learn. Several of them being raid wide one shot (or almost one shot). For xample, Garalon crush, Wind Lord Wind bombs, Ambershaper amber explosion, horridon venom priests, council frost king skill, etc, etc, etc.

    And i am giving plenty of arguments, and data to back them up. You are just saying Normal raiding is easy and ppl should suck it up.

    So before asking for arguments, you should start looking in a mirror and do something besides giving your subjective impression.
    Well fuck lets just remove all boss abiltiies and have them stand their doing a perma /cower emote at the big and powerful raiders threatening him with further nerfs unless he rolls over and dies like a good ol boy.

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