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  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I'm not sure that's true at all.

    Then again, we're discussing raiding, which only a minority of players even gives a shit about to begin with.
    In Wrath, there were 90k 10 man guilds and 60k 25 man guilds raiding. This was also the glory days of pugging. Also note that after wrath, when the game started becoming harder, the population started to steadily fall. Now with ToT, which is arguably the least forgiving normal mode raid ever, WoW loses 1.3 million subs. I don't think its a coincidence.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And you have absolutely no data on the skill level of the folks who left, or why they left for that matter.
    Except for Blizzard's shareholder press release saying casuals are the ones quitting, and blizzard tends to use casual as a synonym for bad.

  2. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Some people are unable to brush their own teeth. Some people will always be excluded. It simply depends on where you place the "cutoff". It is also fairly arguable that the level of skill required to become a doctor is far beyond that of being able to raid the normal modes, so I don't see it as a very good comparison.
    Please don't insult my intelligence. This constant attempt by some people to reduce arguments to absurdities is foolish in the extreme and frankly tired. The best part is that were actually asking for content HARDER than lfr and all we get from players is NO WHY YOU WANT TO DUMB MY GAME DOWN. It's a very good comparison but any comparison if you stretch it to it's extreme it naturally shows some wear and tear.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Dude, people are not going to be satisfied with LFR just because you scream that they should.
    and they are going to be satisfied with normal raiding?
    Maybe you havent noticed but its the same exact raid/enviorment/and bosses
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and they are going to be satisfied with normal raiding?
    Maybe you havent noticed but its the same exact raid/enviorment/and bosses
    Minus the sense of progression, the sense of community, and social interaction.

    For bad players, WoW has turned into a solo game.

    By the way, using your logic, heroic raider that have been satisfied with recent heroics should also be satisfied with LFR. Its the same raid/environment/bosses, right?

  5. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I compared the limits of players ability to aquire "skill" to perform a task. Some people will just never be doctors. Some people will just never be world professional wrestlers. Raiding has nothing to do with that. It's far more apt then you compairing logging and lvling to the skill required to raid. That's an even BIGGER gap I mean are you kidding. I mean I know people who lvld click to play diablo style. Raiding is not simple relative to logging in or lvling and if you think it is I doubt that you play this game.
    Your comparison is beyond horrible because no WoW player with a lvl90 char is unable to do a normal raid.That's how easy they are.They require no special skills,of any kind,nor do they require hard work,of any kind so again your comparison is horrible.

    So far you talk but you can't manage to give practical examples,what makes raiding so different that you'd need more skill then just be able to lvl your character to max level?
    People who have leveled to 90 understand the basics of a rotation and the concept of fighting bosses,they surely did a few dungeons on the way.
    A rotation can easily be improved by reading the damn skills and with the help of some veteran in the guild.
    What's needed more for raiding?A working ear/brain to listen to your raid leader who tells you when you have to use cooldowns or when you to move to a certain point.
    Understanding the concept of time for the timings,I don't think that's too hard.
    So far if you posses average intelligence and some kind of gaming experience (hello leveling-to-90-process) you can raid.

    Now talk what's so fkin difficult about this that some people don't have the ''skill'?
    Last edited by mmocba4f7a59a4; 2013-05-11 at 03:06 AM.

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and they are going to be satisfied with normal raiding?
    Maybe you havent noticed but its the same exact raid/enviorment/and bosses
    Please go back and think about what you just wrote. Identify the error and get back to us.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and they are going to be satisfied with normal raiding?
    Maybe you havent noticed but its the same exact raid/enviorment/and bosses
    Were you? Did you just stay in normals or did you go to heroics? What happened? it's the same exact raid/environment and bosses
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The best part is that were actually asking for content HARDER than lfr .
    content that already exists...
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    We have already established that they don't care to. T H E Y - D O N T - C A R E - T O - G E T - T H E - S K I L L - T O - R A I D - A T - T H E - S A M E - L E V E L - A S - Y O U. They care enough to play at the skill and effort level that they want to put forth.
    So again, whats the problem? That all guilds won't get 12/12 in ToT before the next tier drops? Do you honestly think this is something new? Do you think every guild out there finished Ulduar before ToC showed up? Or finished LK before the holdover tier (or even Cata) started, cleared FL before DS? No.

    Play to your capacity, and if you want to get better and go further, do so. If you don't care to, then don't. There isn't a decent video game on the planet where this doesn't hold true.

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Your comparison is beyond horrible because no WoW player with a lvl90 char is unable to do a normal raid.That's how easy they are.They require no special skills,of any kind,nor do they require hard work,of any kind so again your comparison is horrible.

    So far you talk but you can't manage to give practical examples,what makes raiding so different that you'd need more skill then just be able to lvl your character to max level?
    People who have leveled to 90 understand the basics of a rotation and the concept of fighting bosses,they surely did a few dungeons on the way.
    A rotation can easily be improved by reading the damn skills and with the help of some veteran in the guild.
    What's needed more for raiding?A working ear/brain to listen to your raid leader who tells you when you have to use cooldowns or when you to move to a certain point.
    Understanding the concept of time for the timings,I don't think that's too hard.
    So far if you posses average intelligence and some kind of gaming experience (hello leveling-to-90-process) you can raid?

    Now talk what's so fkin difficult about this that some people don't have the ''skill'?
    YES THEY ARE. That's the fucking point. In fact in addition to that THEY ARE ALSO SIMPLE DON"t HAVE THE STOMACH FOR IT. Now you want a list of what exactly they can't accomplish? Well I posted it earlier but this guys thread on the official forums explains their difficulties and failings in better detail.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=13#246

    Educate yourself. I'm tired of fucking doing it.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter though, all you need to know is that they can't and the aren't by and large and the developers are already talking about addressing this.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    For bad players, WoW has turned into a solo game.
    do they have the capability for anything else?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    content that already exists...
    You really are stuck on stupid, aren't you? There's no arguing with a person so intent on deliberately missing the point.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #1113
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    So again, whats the problem? That all guilds won't get 12/12 in ToT before the next tier drops? Do you honestly think this is something new? Do you think every guild out there finished Ulduar before ToC showed up? Or finished LK before the holdover tier (or even Cata) started, cleared FL before DS? No.

    Play to your capacity, and if you want to get better and go further, do so. If you don't care to, then don't. There isn't a decent video game on the planet where this doesn't hold true.
    The problem is that they fail at raiding and then they quit, no they don't improve, quit.

  14. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    content that already exists...
    that is also TO HARD. Dial it back a bit but crank it up from lfr. MEDIUM.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You really are stuck on stupid, aren't you? There's no arguing with a person so intent on deliberately missing the point.
    Dude wtf? How do you argue with them? Their like poorly designed script that's just stuck on some fucking loop. I don't get it.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Nobody said everyone has the same lvl of skill.The fact is if you can manage to buy WoW,log onto the game,and level your character to max level then there's no excuse.
    What's so hard about following a few timers and putting your character at the right place with the help of your raid leader?There's no level of skill needed.Normals are easy.

    Also seriously don't compare this to usain bolt.No,just no.
    No, the fact is that most people that buty the game, long, level their char, gear their char and TRY to do the normal raids fail miserably.

    THAT is the fact. Normal raiding is too hard for the average player. T14 was finished by 20% of those that tried, even after 6 months and with item upgrades.

    THAT is the situation, not the one that lives in your imagination.

  16. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by thigan View Post
    The problem is that they fail at raiding and then they quit, no they don't improve, quit.
    And nothing encourages them to improve or get better ASSUMING they have the capacity to do so. LFR sure as hell doesn't. Normal raiding doesn't and isn't. I'm not sure it's possible they can but either way that doesn't fucking matter. They need something appropriate for them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    do they have the capability for anything else?
    If easier raids, or raids starting a much lower difficulty are made with them in mind, yes.

  18. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    do they have the capability for anything else?
    REALLY? YOU SEEM TO THINK THEY DO. After all ANYBODY CAN GET THE SKILL RIGHT? NORMAL RAIDING FOR ANYBODY. Do you even read what you fucking type.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Dude wtf? How do you argue with them? Their like poorly designed script that's just stuck on some fucking loop. I don't get it.

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    If people want to do content that a nut-less monkey can do then...um..LFR!!!! Do you understand that part?

    What about people who want content that is too difficult for a nut-less monkey, but not as difficult as Normal modes?

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