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  1. #1221
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    It's not less skilled. It's time investment. You know what happens to guilds that raid more in a week then some players do in a month or even two months? .
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #1222
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I've seen him explain the same points to the same people asking the same dumb questions for 60 pages now.

    While my statements to you are tongue-in-cheek making a point to illustrate your rediculousness - my honest opinion is that you already know the information you are looking for and get excited playing the obtuse poster to see how infuriated you can make a complete stranger. It seems kinda psychotic to me, but hey, I'm no doctor.
    Asking you to explain yourself on a forum is a dumb question?What a bland personal attack.

    Somehow you know with certainty I already know what his arguments are?Since I do not you are being delusional.
    But in the end you actually agree it's ok to ask someone to scan a 60+ page thread for someone's post while that poster could just refer the person to the post directly or just type out his arguments...well this is over I already have a troll to deal with.

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    Skill and having the drive to get it done. Get together 30-35 people who are driven to down progression is a beastly machine when they have all the time and motivation to get shit done. Of course it really wouldnt matter how much time they had if they werent great players but it is similiar to this. If people would just learn the basics of their toons and the guild would actually operate as a raiding guild, bosses would die.

  5. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    ToT has a gear check, so people will need to get their 500+ ilvl or whatever before doing it, but for the most part it's pretty managable .
    Agreed
    I completely refuse to believe when people say that thr absolute best of humanly possible of certain players can only get them as far as LFR.
    If you cant even go into normal mode its very obvious they arnt playing to their max potential

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?
    where did i say that?
    If the maximum capaibility of certain players can only get them as far as LFR? i mean that isnt even be humanly possible
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  6. #1226
    What I think actually might be better (I was fine with an easy mode btw) is to just nerf the previous tier even more then it currently is, to lets say 20%ish (instead of 10%, 10% is barely noticible). Make it very pug friendly/new player friendly except make some of the very bad mechanics still bad (Sha's breath still kills you etc). Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.

    Or better yet just remove all the hard enrages and buff the ilvl, that would solve a lot of issues and keep the 10% nerf. It's hard to justify going back there with alts when valor gear is 522 and LFR gear is 503.

    With the crappy 496 ilvl from the previous tier and the first couple of bosses from ToT being tuned for 503ilvl+ I could see how new raiders could hit several walls especially on gear checks like Horridon and Tortos.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-11 at 04:15 AM.

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?
    Do you think that the majority of people are simply limited by their skill cap being low? You can raise that cap to at least normals with guildes, forums, and having your guild operate as a real raiding guild. Everything you change is a boost in your chances in downing a boss, look at WOL, find out what numbers people are pulling and who is doing what. Try to fix your friends dps/hps, talk to him tell him why. Yet if people dont care to change anything at all, then no other change is going to matter.

    Instead of pushing themselves they actually only do what they have to do to get into the raid and nothing else more.

  8. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you've gone from "there aren't enough" to "we don't know the numbers". Progress of a sort.
    And what progress did you make? You apparently know something I don't since there is LARGE group of players stuck in between LFR & normals? I said we don't know numbers of ppl who are unhappy with LFR and want beer league but we sure know that number is small, not LARGE like you said. Because LFR increased numbers of "raiders". If there is LARGE number who is unhappy with LFR and want beer league how the hell was LFR so successful?

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I don't understand why you haven't put the effort into killing him with less gear like the world first guilds downed him with. The clearly earned the kill, while you will have a hollow very nerfed overgeared kill. It you can't put the effort into killing him within the first couple weeks he's available, why do you think you deserve the chance to?
    There is this thing called progression in raiding where players learn and overcome challenges. No, not overcome by crying for the boss to get their difficulty steamrolled some players have pride. Do you know what that is P R I D E? It's something people usually take in their hobbies especially social ones.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    And what progress did you make? You apparently know something I don't since there is LARGE group of players stuck in between LFR & normals? I said we don't know numbers why they quit or are they unhappy with LFR. Because LFR increased numbers of "raiders". If they there is LARGE number who is unhappy with LFR and want beer league how the hell was LFR so successful?
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #1231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.
    .
    a create a shit ton new problems.
    So now all legit raiders have to go through another tier of raiding before getting to normal?

    Blizzard just solve the whole not having actual raiders needing to run LFRs
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    What I think actually might be better (I was fine with an easy mode btw) is to just nerf the previous tier even more then it currently is, to lets say 20%ish (instead of 10%, 10% is barely noticible). Make it very pug friendly/new player friendly except make some of the very bad mechanics still bad (Sha's breath still kills you etc). Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.

    With the crappy 496 ilvl from the previous tier and the first couple of bosses being tuned for 503ilvl+ I could see how new raiders could hit several walls especially on gear checks like Horridon and Tortos.
    But they wont actaully become better players which is the biggest problem of all. Each time bosses are nerfed and they down that boss they feel like they are better players. 30% nerf in DS then Cata hits and the forums are raging with people saying its too hard because they no longer have the 30% nerf carrying them. Nerfs are not productive means to making a better community, they make players feel ten times better than they really are so they never actually improve and fix the various things wrong with their gameplay.

  13. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Do you know what that is P R I D E? It's something people usually take in their hobbies especially social ones.
    apprantly not
    Since people have been saying that the absolute maximum playing capability that they can humanly achieve can only get them to complete LFR
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    Thats not evidence of anything but possibilities as to why less people are raiding. That is all it is. LFR takes a ton of people away from normal raiding, people growing old of the game, not being able to afford it anymore, and a million other reasons that i dont care to list.

  15. #1235
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    I am sorry, what does your evidence prove except there are less people raiding normals? You are comparing 1.5 million of ppl raiding in WRATH with today where probably 2 000 000 raids LFR. Try and think. Is it possible that some of those 1.5 switched to LFR and they are happy there?

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    But they wont actaully become better players which is the biggest problem of all.
    They are declining to be molded into the kinds of players you want them to become. Why should they care what you want them to be? This is a problem for you, because they will pull the game design in a direction you don't want it to go. Not clear why any of us should care about that either.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Do you think that the majority of people are simply limited by their skill cap being low? You can raise that cap to at least normals with guildes, forums, and having your guild operate as a real raiding guild. Everything you change is a boost in your chances in downing a boss, look at WOL, find out what numbers people are pulling and who is doing what. Try to fix your friends dps/hps, talk to him tell him why. Yet if people dont care to change anything at all, then no other change is going to matter.

    Instead of pushing themselves they actually only do what they have to do to get into the raid and nothing else more.
    Actually, I do. Our off tank's wife is a good example of this. She reads guides, asks for help from more experienced players of her class, knows strategies, has a good clean ui and a good computer, but we can't bring her to raids. She dies on mechanics all too often, and is by far the bottom dps, despite trying her best. She's a good friend to everyone in the raid, but we cannot take her to raids if we want to progress. It sucks, especially for her.

    These players do exist. And they're human too, and want to do real raiding, just like all of us.

  18. #1238
    Regardless of anyones opinions keep this thread rolling. It's pretty hilarious material if you can deal with the busted blood vessels in your brain afterwards.

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am sorry, what does your evidence prove except there are less people raiding normals? You are comparing 1.5 million of ppl raiding in WRATH with today where probably 2 000 000 raids LFR. Try and think. Is it possible that some of those 1.5 switched to LFR and they are happy there?
    I'm pointing out those people did organized raiding at a difficulty level between LFR and current normal, and were apparently happy with it. Yes, some would be ok with LFR, but there were SO MANY of them (compared to the current crop of normal/heroic raiders) that if even a fraction of those players wanted something between LFR and normal, it could be significant.

    This is an argument against your unsupported assertion that few people would want that kind of tuning. So, given that there exists evidence that appears to work against your assertion, can you come up with some to bolster it?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    That is fine but dont confuse raiding for fun with raiding for progression. You can do both but dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game.
    I'm not confused. Sounds like you are.

    When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds.

    Progression means fighting a challenging boss until your group is good enough to down it, then moving to the next boss and over the course of week to months completing the instance.

    There are guilds that compete over who's the furthest progressed, but you can progress without competing. The are two different things.

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