4th raid difficulty, Easy Mode, should it happen?

[isadorr]

Nope.

He's said "dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game". And I said, "When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds."

No one is saying " I should be competitive with other guilds by virtue of knowing my login password". The guilds that want to progress for fun aren't trying to be competitive.

And if you are raiding for FUN why does it matter how many bosses you down? Isnt all of it fun?

[anaxie]

If you want unfair restictions on raiding there should be more insane shit like. To start ToT normal you must beat an ingame emulation of Battletoads. Holy shit Lei Shien Normal wouldn't even be started yet.

[Deleted]

people take pride in how terrible they are?

Seems to be like it in this thread.Some people going out of their way to prove (while refusing to give arguments of course) that most casuals are so bad it's actually unreasonable to expect them to do normal raiding.
elitism used to be about raiders treating casuals like noobs,oh do times have changed,now it's casuals/normal raiders going out of their way to treat the majority of the playerbase like tards.

[Deleted]

I'm pointing out those people did organized raiding at a difficulty level between LFR and current normal, and were apparently happy with it. Yes, some would be ok with LFR, but there were SO MANY of them (compared to the current crop of normal/heroic raiders) that if even a fraction of those players wanted something between LFR and normal, it could be significant.

This is an argument against your unsupported assertion that few people would want that kind of tuning. So, given that there exists evidence that appears to work against your assertion, can you come up with some to bolster it?

Things greatly changed when they were given a choice to choose between clearing normal content and LFR. How does your evidence works against my assumption?
Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some quit the game from reasons not involved because raiding was too hard/too easy.
Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some are still raiding normals and heroics.
Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some have switched to LFR.
Out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH some want beer league.

I say that number of beer league players is not big. I am all for giving 4th difficulty but let's not pretend that it's a decision which will be for majority.

Oh, yeah, out of 1.5 million raiders in WRATH and 12 million players 4 million players quit. It's safe to say that people who quit are mostly people who DON'T raid.

[Crashdummy]

Again stating stuff.But no explanation.What exactly makes raiding so hard?On top of that a personal attack,because that's the only way to give ''worth'' to your opinion,it's not like you have arguments right?

Too many mechanics for average raiders to learn. Several of them being raid wide one shot (or almost one shot). For xample, Garalon crush, Wind Lord Wind bombs, Ambershaper amber explosion, horridon venom priests, council frost king skill, etc, etc, etc.

And i am giving plenty of arguments, and data to back them up. You are just saying Normal raiding is easy and ppl should suck it up.

So before asking for arguments, you should start looking in a mirror and do something besides giving your subjective impression.

[anaxie]

Why?
Normal Throne is tuned for people in 489-496 gear
Throne LFR drops 502

nevermind battlefield barrens allows them to solo facebleed grind out full 502 armor guaranteed at their own pace.

[Maelstrom51]

So if i buy a new game and im not good at it then it should be nerfed?

No - it should be designed with a better difficulty curve in the first place. Its a problem when over three fourths of your playerbase considers it too difficult.

[isadorr]

The problem is that for bad players its not a social game. The things available to them have zero social interaction or sense of progression. They have no opportunity to take pride in their hobby.

Unlike a lot of people here I'm not asking for a new raid mode. I'm asking for a different difficulty curve. Honestly, the curve presented in Wrath worked very well. I know that when I was new, but managed to kill 6 bosses in ICC 25 I was happy and proud. And I wanted more, and wanted to become a better player. It was great, and I eventually did become a better player.

Myself, i had a choice between becoming a better player and raiding heroics or doing normal raiding. I chose to get better and i got better because it was hard, i had no choice but to get better.

With nerfs, there is no reason to get better, even if you feel like you got better, you didnt. You merely pull better numbers because of a nerf or being able to stand in fire without dying or having more gear because of the nerfed bosses you downed. You do not get better by nerfing content, the way to motivate a RAIDER is to give them a challenge and they will improve. Or like many on here they will quit citing it is not humanly possible for them.

[Ragedaug]

You are basically saying that if you can log into the game you should be able to down normal modes. No entitlement there, you must really miss Wrath.

You left out a part....

Log into the game AND - wait for it - try

No one is asking for a handout. What people are asking for is a version that they down that matches the skill and effort they can are are willing to put into it.

See how that's different than your strawman? It was a half decent attempt though, I would still give you a golf clap for effort.

[Deleted]

LFR isn't raiding. It's solo play in a raid instance. They aren't the same thing. If you think that the LFR experience is the same as Normal mode or Heroic modes then I would submit you've never participated in LFR or progression raiding or both.

What the hell are you talking about. I actually agree that LFR isn't raiding. But Blizzard counts people who do LFR as raiders, either we like it or not.
And yes, you and me agree that LFR isn't raiding. But I bet there are loads of ppl who think LFR is raiding because then there wouldn't be millions of ppl in LFR.

[Raone]

Why?
Normal Throne is tuned for people in 489-496 gear
Throne LFR drops 502

Because blizzard stupidly made LFR drop 502 gear when it really shouldn't, it makes the previous tier completely pointless. The previous tier really should have dropped 502 gear or 503 gear which is what ToT is currently tuned towards.

One of the blues (might've been GC) already stated the first four bosses are tuned for 503? or 502, then it goes up after that because most raiders had valor upgrade 496 gear. Currently now new raiders do not have that luxury.

[Maelstrom51]

Myself, i had a choice between becoming a better player and raiding heroics or doing normal raiding. I chose to get better and i got better because it was hard, i had no choice but to get better.

With nerfs, there is no reason to get better, even if you feel like you got better, you didnt. You merely pull better numbers because of a nerf or being able to stand in fire without dying or having more gear because of the nerfed bosses you downed. You do not get better by nerfing content, the way to motivate a RAIDER is to give them a challenge and they will improve. Or like many on here they will quit citing it is not humanly possible for them.

I am not asking for nerfs. I am asking for future raids to have a better difficulty curve in future raids.

[anaxie]

Too many mechanics for average raiders to learn. Several of them being raid wide one shot (or almost one shot). For xample, Garalon crush, Wind Lord Wind bombs, Ambershaper amber explosion, horridon venom priests, council frost king skill, etc, etc, etc.

And i am giving plenty of arguments, and data to back them up. You are just saying Normal raiding is easy and ppl should suck it up.

So before asking for arguments, you should start looking in a mirror and do something besides giving your subjective impression.

Well fuck lets just remove all boss abiltiies and have them stand their doing a perma /cower emote at the big and powerful raiders threatening him with further nerfs unless he rolls over and dies like a good ol boy.

[isadorr]

No - it should be designed with a better difficulty curve in the first place. Its a problem when over three fourths of your playerbase considers it too difficult.

Yes and it is the direct result of nerfing content in the first place. Your playerbase is lazy and whiny, they have grown that way because if they pout enough they will get a nerf making them feel like a raider again. Instead of getting better, looking at WOL and fixing shit, they just whine. Wrath babies, ever heard that term? There is ar eason for that term existing.

[Osmeric]

The problem is they don't try.

I want to point out that to Blizzard, a player that has a high skill cap but doesn't try, and a player with a low skill cap that does try, are indistinguishable. And really, the mental resources to push oneself are just another inherent attribute, like fast reflexes, large working memory, intelligence, or good vision. It's just that this drive gets polluted with moral overtones, leading to spurious notions of "deserving" to be catered to by the game designers.

[Ragedaug]

nevermind battlefield barrens allows them to solo facebleed grind out full 502 armor guaranteed at their own pace.

sweet!!! more solo content for the bads that continues to destroy any semblance of community! just the shot in the arm the MMO needs!

[Deleted]

Too many mechanics for average raiders to learn. Several of them being raid wide one shot (or almost one shot). For xample, Garalon crush, Wind Lord Wind bombs, Ambershaper amber explosion, horridon venom priests, council frost king skill, etc, etc, etc.

If a guilds starts slowly with one boss,learning the encounter wipe through wipe what's to stop someone with an average intelligence to learn the mechanics of the encounter?
Not to mention you have a whole guild to help and answer your questions?
A single encounter requires what..reading up on a few mechanics,in the extreme case if you actually spend an entire day just watching youtube vids and reading about the spells you'll get the encounter under control.And that's only a day of work.Reminds me of that Glorious comparing normal raiding to becoming a doctor....just stating how ridiculous that was again.

[isadorr]

No - it should be designed with a better difficulty curve in the first place. Its a problem when over three fourths of your playerbase considers it too difficult.

This may amaze you but most people that buy a game actually want the challenge. A game with a rep of being too easy isnt purchased by most but a game that is known to be really hard and challenging is a top seller. Pop into most games and you will see that there is no one to hold your hand or lower the challenge for you.

[anaxie]

You left out a part....

Log into the game AND - wait for it - try

No one is asking for a handout. What people are asking for is a version that they down that matches the skill and effort they can are are willing to put into it.

See how that's different than your strawman? It was a half decent attempt though, I would still give you a golf clap for effort.

Majority of guilds in TBC did T4 Kara while peak guilds cleared T6.5 sunwell. Guess what? T14 is nerfed and it is waiting for you. T15 too hard. Whelp guess T14 is the place for you. Or you know the other place where the LARGEST portion of the playerbase considers actual raiding for themselves. Yes the largest portion considers LFR for them to be raiding. What you say doesn't matter because to them you are also a minority. Hell the three/four of you have zero voice when you say for them and their content path isn't viable.

[Ragedaug]

What the hell are you talking about. I actually agree that LFR isn't raiding. But Blizzard counts people who do LFR as raiders, either we like it or not.
And yes, you and me agree that LFR isn't raiding. But I bet there are loads of ppl who think LFR is raiding because then there wouldn't be millions of ppl in LFR.

The heck that I'm talking about is what you agree with. At first I thought you were confused, then I read the 2nd sentence you wrote and realized you got it, so that made me happy.

What doesn't matter is what Blizzard calls it. They can call it whatever they want, but you and I, and all the people quitting know it's not raiding. So Blizzard can keep putting their heads in the same while they post LFR numbers to board members, while behind the scenes the subs keep dropping.