Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    ...our druid always 3rd and behind
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    ...our druid always 3rd and behind
    Sorry there aren't any helpful posts about how to help your druid. Here's hoping this one will be of service.

    Looking at your most recent logs, your druid used Nourish 518 times over about 17 fights on Tuesday. That number should be close to zero. The ONLY reason to use Nourish right now is to extend Lifebloom if the tank isn't 100% topped off, but also is taking very light damage and has no chance to take damage spikes, plus the entire raid is 100% topped off. So bascially never. Glyphed Regrowth is a faster cast skill and does more more heals per mana than Nourish. This isn't Cata- he needs to take nourish off his bar. His Regrowth + Living Seed averaged about 105k heals per cast, while Nourish averaged about 36k per cast- Regrowth mana cost > 3x Nourish mana cost, so using nourish period is a HPS, HPM, and net mana loss.

    To sum up: In order to get 105k healing out of Nourish, it costs 30.6% base mana and 7.5s of casting (before haste). To get 105k healing out of Regrowth, it costs 29.7% base mana and 1.5s of casting (before haste).

    He also didn't use Wild Mushrooms a single time. It's already incredibly powerful for what it does, [edit] in a couple weeks in 5.3, it's getting a range increase and a 100% buff [/edit], with Rejuv on the raid during heavy periods of damage, this can sometimes give out (smart) pulses of healing as powerful as Revival with a 12 second cool down. With the dozens of GCDs he'll free up by taking Nourish off his bar, he'll be able to place mushrooms strategically and have some burst AOE heals available when needed. Wild Growth use is pretty low too, I personally almost never glyph it, but my druid is also MS Guardian, so most of my healing is done outside of raiding. Resto Druids are performing better than Holy Priests and Resto Shamans in both normal and heroic 10m these days. Weaving in Cenarion Ward (massive buff in 5.2) on some fights with very regular, predictable damage can also be a helpful tool-like Tortos stomps, Dark Animus' Interrupting Jolts, and Ji Kun's pool soaking and Quills.
    Last edited by Hilltopperpete; 2013-05-10 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Latest Wild Mushroom buff not live yet!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    Surprised no-ones commented on this to be honest, lol.

    He could be the worst player in the world and it still wouldn't entitle you to loot anymore than he is. The very nature of DKP means it rewards loyal players, not good ones. You say you understand that raiding is a group mechanic, but your entire post sounds conceited and egotistical; raiding isn't about you, or what loot you want/think you deserve, it's about people collaborating to achieve their goals. He's obviously attended far more raids than you have/been a loyal member longer, thus enabling the guild to raid, thus he isn't 'stealing' your loot, like your whole post implies he's doing.

    And your question reeks of being unaware to the plight of the raid composition; Druids suck right now. They're so dead last that Prot Paladins are out healing them. And nearly just as bad are Shamans. So no, with no disrespect, it isn't that you have amazing skillz and deserve all the loot before them. It's because their speccs are in a bad way, and in the future if I was you, I'd research your healing composition to discover how you can improve your own play style to adjust to the players around you.
    Disagree with this. If this monk is outhealing this druid, and the druid wins loots over the monk even though the monk is using 483 and 463 ilevel gear, that isn't helping the group in any way, shape or form. DKP is a shit system in a lot of ways. Other than the fact that it rewards people who continuously show up on time, every time (which is a good thing) it doesn't really take into account things like actual performance and the NEED for an item. If I had more dkp than this monk, but had a 522 trinket while he was using a 463, I would let the trinket go to HIM first. It would be an upgrade for me, sure, but it would be a HUGE upgrade for him, and if he healed the fight and beat me by as much as he says he beat this druid by? Fuck. Let the loot go to him. THAT'S real team spirit. Knowing who will have the larger upgrade and realizing it will benefit the group MORE by letting that person get the loot first. If the item is only a fractional upgrade for the druid, and the druid isn't even doing his job to the best of his ability, then give it to someone who will actually USE it.

    And P.S. There are always going to be healers "at the bottom," of the healing chain, but to say that any class is "useless" or "healing less than a protection paladin" is just plain moronic. There are representations of all 5 healing classes in many high end guilds, and they aren't struggling as you say they should be.

    Stop blaming FOTM for your badness.
    Last edited by Servasus; 2013-05-10 at 03:04 AM.

  3. #23
    Checking over the logs for 07-05, his lifebloom and harmony uptimes are good but one thing that's quite striking is his use of swiftmend.

    On most fights he is not using swiftmend enough and mainly relying on Nourish as his filler spell (and to keep harmony up) which is handicapping him quite a bit. This also ties in with his talent choice "Soul of the Forest" which increases the haste of the resto druids next spelll cast by 75% after using swiftmend (commonly used in conjunction with wild growth for amazing healing).

    On the issue with gear, why not talk to him about which pieces you would prefer and try to reach a compromise. Of course, there are some items you will be inevitably sharing (belt, boots, etc excluding VP items) but resto druids prefer spirit / mastery items while monks prefer spirit / crit or mastery / crit items so me and a friend in the guild happily passed items the other needed and I'm sure you can do the same.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithfin View Post
    Resto druids are dead last in the healers' food-chain. ALL other healers snipe their hps.
    Heals getting sniped is just highlighting why meters showing HPS are a poor measure of healer performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  5. #25
    Field Marshal
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedave View Post
    There's not a single fight where a resto druid will be better than a MW. I say this with considerable sadness, as my druid was my main from 2005 up until September 2012, when I quickly realized that MW mechanics will always outperform a resto druid.
    Is it possible that your play style just works better with a monk? Resto Druids should outheal monks on Horridon, Council of Elders, ji'Kun, Durumu and Primordius, 10N. I have healed 10 and 25 with my monk and can tell you that a good Resto Druid can and should beat an equally geared monk on some of the fights.

    Don't take my word for it though. Here is your proof.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Horridon/...14/60/default/

    Also check out Cannotbetamed.com They have a nice quick guide on how to evaluate if your Resto Druid is doing their job properly. Pull logs from a fight where he should beat you and make sure he is doing what he is supposed to. Some of the other posters have started you on your way.
    Vivirei | Immortalis | US-Zul'Jin
    Do you want to be number one, or do you want to work hard enough to be number one?

  6. #26
    According to my count, the shaman has been third more than the druid. That's across the last 11 fights. He's not horribly behind (mostly) either even when he is. It gives the impression a little that the complaint really comes from him sharing the same loot. He doesn't seem to be out-rightly the worst healer and now he's even the lowest geared healer.

    As others have said, his wild growth usage needs work since he took SotF and he shouldn't be using nourish.

    But to answer your topic, absolutely. Right now, a monk should always beat a resto druid with similar gear levels. Any situation a druid will shine, a monk will shine brighter (continuous raid damage). Druids have a bit better control and more smart healing but that's not going to show on the meters. The amount you're above him is around the expected difference.

  7. #27
    High Overlord D-Balthalzar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    England
    Posts
    118
    Disagree with this. If this monk is outhealing this druid, and the druid wins loots over the monk even though the monk is using 483 and 463 ilevel gear, that isn't helping the group in any way, shape or form. DKP is a shit system in a lot of ways. Other than the fact that it rewards people who continuously show up on time, every time (which is a good thing) it doesn't really take into account things like actual performance and the NEED for an item. If I had more dkp than this monk, but had a 522 trinket while he was using a 463, I would let the trinket go to HIM first. It would be an upgrade for me, sure, but it would be a HUGE upgrade for him, and if he healed the fight and beat me by as much as he says he beat this druid by? Fuck. Let the loot go to him. THAT'S real team spirit. Knowing who will have the larger upgrade and realizing it will benefit the group MORE by letting that person get the loot first. If the item is only a fractional upgrade for the druid, and the druid isn't even doing his job to the best of his ability, then give it to someone who will actually USE it.
    I didn't say I agreed with DKP as a system, so all this is pretty useless, no disrespect. I agree with you on a lot of points, it would be nice if the Druid passed on items that would be a massive upgrade for the OP. But it isn't required, and the simple fact of the matter is, if he's got more DKP he can buy more shit.

    It'd be like a McDonalds worker complaining that a top end business worker gets paid more, when the McDonalds worker works harder. The system simply doesn't work like that; it rewards loyalty and time, and truthfully if the OP was in my raid bitching about the druid to the other healers, I'd have a serious word with him because it'd simply reduce raid morale. (Remember, he did indeed state that he and an ex paladin 'agreed' that the Druid was shit; to me, that doesn't sound like it's promoting a healthy raid atmosphere at all.)

    And P.S. There are always going to be healers "at the bottom," of the healing chain, but to say that any class is "useless" or "healing less than a protection paladin" is just plain moronic. There are representations of all 5 healing classes in many high end guilds, and they aren't struggling as you say they should be.
    Is that why that there's been a huge up cry from high end Druids about main changing? I mean, I'm not even being hyperbolic. Resto Druids are so bad that Protection Paladins are seriously on the verge of competing with their own heals. They simply haven't aged well with the game; the nature of HoTs is dying, and what's worse, it's been completely replaced by monks. In conjunction, they have no burst healing spells and absorbs clusterfuck the shit out of them. Resto Druids are simply bad, and like I said in my previous post, it doesn't matter if the Druid was playing 100% correctly, unless other contextual features are involved, the monk will always outheal the druid.

    So really, isn't that the point of this thread? The OP is asking why the Druid is last. It's been answered by multiple people; he's not healing optimally and his spec is severely under powered.

    Stop blaming FOTM for your badness.
    Is that directed at me? 'cause my main isn't even a healer anymore, lol. And my main healing alt is my priest, followed by my shaman and then my druid. So...

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Well's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,172
    Please don't derail the thread. I generally want to make sure that my suspicions are correct (I also play a druid, and have read extensively on them), for his constant use of nourish, lack of WG with SotF etc.

    I really don't care that much for loot: even if he gets the item 1st, I will get it 2nd, I don't care. I just vented.

    I appreciate all of your answers (with obvious exceptions), but this thread is about MWs potential sniping of druid heals, and if that's the case, how much does it account for in the meters?

    About Horridon and Primordius. At horridon, he is generally 1st the last times (although I am the only one dispeling from the 3: I hate it. Told them so many times to dispel shit), but when we reach war-god phase I just sky-rocket foward for obvious reasons.

    At primordius, I am so foward, it's funny: I even get records at this fight.


    Pokemon X FC: 1435-4739-8696 Trainer Name: Evershade

  9. #29
    I'd have thought the mechanics of a MW healing be be MORE friendly to a druid what with the extensive use of renewing mist as a HoT to complement druid HoTs. Now sheilding classes like a disc priest and to a lesser extent holy paly - now they will hinder your druid right of the bottom of the chart.

  10. #30
    Simply put: Yes, we snipe heal very effectively. Spamming Uplift tops the raid off pretty quickly. Druids can only pull HPS if their HoTs can tick without much overheal (like Tortos heroic). Currently running with 2 disc, 1-2 hpally and 1 MW really annoys our rdruid. Most of the damage is being absorbed/reduced by discs and hpallies. The damage that actually needs healing is sniped by Uplift Uplift and ReM ...

    Also being able to align our healing CDs (45/40s and 90s CD) perfectly with many boss abilities puts us way ahead of them.
    Oh.. and druids are seriously in need for buffs (especially in 25man).
    Quote Originally Posted by moogogaipan View Post
    Bro do you even Uplift? ^_^

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by rakkar View Post
    I'd have thought the mechanics of a MW healing be be MORE friendly to a druid what with the extensive use of renewing mist as a HoT to complement druid HoTs. Now sheilding classes like a disc priest and to a lesser extent holy paly - now they will hinder your druid right of the bottom of the chart.
    Absorbs are worse, but MW monks simply fit into a similar niche as druids and do it faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viveka View Post
    Is it possible that your play style just works better with a monk? Resto Druids should outheal monks on Horridon, Council of Elders, ji'Kun, Durumu and Primordius, 10N. I have healed 10 and 25 with my monk and can tell you that a good Resto Druid can and should beat an equally geared monk on some of the fights.
    This is true though. Heavy raid damage is where both these classes shine. Monks can't be touched when it comes to blanket raid healing, but druid heals are smarter and more controlled.
    Therefore in fights like the one viveka mentions (at least some), druids do get an advantage, simply because the damage is constant but not on everyone.

    In other cases, a monk will snipe druid heals. They are meter hogs, only behind the absorbs. Looking at healing meters isn't bad, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Uplift usually heals what wild growth would have.
    In fights like council and horridon, it's the opposite. Druid hots are smarter so rejuv and wild growth will top everyone off before renewing mists figures itself out.

    Also for Horridon, druids can dispel everything if they symbiosis a paladin. You've got a pally but he only has 5 dispels for the that fight. That doesn't seem right.

  12. #32
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Not nearly out of the way enough
    Posts
    4,495
    This has way more to do with druids than monks, so it's getting sent over to the Druid forum.

  13. #33
    Tell your druid to take nourish off his bar its terrible and should never be used and the glyph of rejuv doesnt help it become better its just bad. I'd suggest glyph of wild growth but it doesn't matter id also suggest for him to try the t14+ settings on askmrrobot because he is playing soul of the forest and it helps a lot

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltopperpete View Post
    snip

    He also didn't use Wild Mushrooms a single time. It's incredibly powerful for what it does, just a couple weeks ago it got a range increase and a 100% buff, with Rejuv on the raid during heavy periods of damage, this can sometimes give out (smart) pulses of healing as powerful as Revival with a 12 second cool down.
    This change is live already? I was under the impression that the new Wild Mushroom: Bloom and Tranquility changes were scheduled for 5.3.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    This change is live already? I was under the impression that the new Wild Mushroom: Bloom and Tranquility changes were scheduled for 5.3.
    they already buffed wild mushrooms once they are buffing it again

  16. #36
    I heal 25 man's and a 10 man clean up group. Druids have some issues atm but he should not be as far behind as you say he is. Our biggest issue is not hps but raid utility. Especially with no hpally or dpriest his heals should be up with yours.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by nghtmr View Post
    they already buffed wild mushrooms once they are buffing it again
    I know they buffed Wild Mushroom: Bloom by adding in the Rejuv overcharging. However I was under the impression that the increase in bloom radius as well as Tranquility targeting 12 people in 25 man raids wasn't going live until 5.3.

    Edit: Here's the link to the proposed 5.3 changes.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2013-05-10 at 02:48 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Heals getting sniped is just highlighting why meters showing HPS are a poor measure of healer performance.
    This is my thinking as well, though to be fair I don't heal our main group much (more of a tank guy) and only heal alt runs.
    If you're getting sniped then the incoming damage isn't enough for it to matter who heals what.

    If your complaint is that none of your heals are actually doing anything because the person is already healed by the time they land, then I would suggest respec'ing to Boomkin for that fight or something...

  19. #39
    High Overlord Grinia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    143
    Also, you're 3 healing. The only fight that should be 3 healed on normal is maybe Megaera provided your dps is low. All 12 fights are two healable. In an encounter where raid's being topped off with any consistency, a resto druid will almost always lose when healing meters are concerned.

  20. #40
    Looking quickly at your last days logs, he is leading on tank heals by a very large margin.

    Maybe you did not realize this, but he is enabling you to soak up all the raid healing by carrying the tank heals.

    If he was not constantly refreshing LB and topping of the tank, and spamming rejuv on the raid instead, it would look much different.
    Last edited by Sprucelee; 2013-05-10 at 10:18 PM.
    Fangthorn <Temerity> Windrunner - US

    US #15 @ 3 Days - 12 Hours / Week

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •