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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Stridur's Avatar
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    He says that he would have to move another primary button off of his keybinds to use it and does not want to do it.

    If somebody could post a fairly detailed reasoning behind an argument for or against using a level 90 talent, it would be appreciated. He is the type that needs a detailed and logical explanation, not just a "because its a level 90 talent" type response. He does like to theorycraft which made me very surprised that he is using NO level 90 talent.

    Thank you
    -snip-
    Please don't just post images/gifs as a response to a thread. ~eschatological
    Last edited by eschatological; 2013-05-12 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #22
    i feel like this Punk'd or we're being troll'd

  3. #23
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    I find this astonishing as well. Glaive Toss is a rotational ability on single target, and Barrage is *wrecking* some fights with a need for heavy burst AoE. Horridon, H-Megaera adds, Tortos bats if you DPS them, Ji-kun nests, ICe walls on H-Durumu, ball lightning on Lei Shen - they all melt when you MS (to apply and get SrS rolling), barrage, then MS again.

    To not use a level 90 talent is mind-boggling. Sure, it'll be a DPS loss if you try and prioritize it over ES, but GT is clearly better than an AS, and Barrage is clearly better than MS+Imp SrS, if you already have SrS rolling on all those targets (from a previous MS).

  4. #24
    Makes me sad to read stuff like this.... How do people that clueless (or just lazy) about their class get to be killing heroic bosses.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by aHeeRo View Post
    i feel like this Punk'd or we're being troll'd
    Yeah, I'd love to see this guys armory/logs before i give any further validity to this.
    My hunter is the genetic love child of Liam Neeson, the Dos Equis guy and Chuck Norris. You lose.


  6. #26
    The only reasoning I see behind this is the 4 piece t15 set bonus. I haven't been able to get my 4 piece yet so I can't say how good it is. Maybe using AS over GT is giving him nice procs thus simming it close.

    Which makes me wonder what if you pair it with thrill of the hunt? 2 less bottoms to press. Idk I'm just talking out my ass with no math behind it.
    Last edited by Shockymonkey; 2013-05-10 at 03:25 PM.

  7. #27
    A shame how every single person talks down on him, yet all of them are worse, if the description of him is accurate. Just because something it common or popular doesn't mean it's right or true. If he's beating, in parses, other hunters who use the 90 talents, then he is either right, or he is just that much of a baller than them.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaizze View Post
    Hey all just looking for a little advice about one of my raiders.

    We are currently 8/13 HM and run a 10 Man raid. I have a Hunter who plays excellent and is always in the 80th - 90th percentile on fights, and also has multiple high parsing ranks. I never thought to scan through his rotation until I found out that he does not use ANY of his level 90 talents.

    Playing Survival, he says that Glaive Toss will be a DPS Loss than if he does not use it.

    I have never thought to question what he does because he plays at a high level, however, to me it seems like it would be a DPS loss to not use a 90 talent.

    Simulations come out about 4000-5000 DPS higher, however he disputes the accuracy of them for that.


    So is he sacrificing higher DPS by not using this talent? On single target / and on AOE fights (Barrage?)

    I believe Glaive Toss to be the highest DPET for Hunters.

    He says that he would have to move another primary button off of his keybinds to use it and does not want to do it.

    If somebody could post a fairly detailed reasoning behind an argument for or against using a level 90 talent, it would be appreciated. He is the type that needs a detailed and logical explanation, not just a "because its a level 90 talent" type response. He does like to theorycraft which made me very surprised that he is using NO level 90 talent.

    Thank you
    I normally wouldn't post in a thread like this, but I couldn't help myself.

    There's so much horrid tunnelvision advice here, I couldn't let you hang out there.

    Consider what you are doing:

    1. You're 8/13 HM, putting you among the top guilds in the world.
    2. Your hunter is a very good DPS player by your admission, and has multiple high ranked parses.
    3. You asked the hunter to use the lvl 90 talent, and he's resistant because his setup works for him.
    4. The DPS difference we're talking about is relatively marginal by your estimation - 4-5000 DPS.

    And here's the kicker:
    5. You're thinking about trying to force your high performing hunter to use an ability that he doesn't want to use for an extremely small gain.

    Why?

    No, seriously, why?

    If your answer is "well he should be doing XXX because it's the right way to play", that's a horrible answer if you look at the assumptions above. It would be different if he were a mediocre player (every guild has them). But he's not, you've said he's one of your top players. And you're one of the top guilds in the world.

    My friend, as a fellow RL, there's this great old expression that comes to mind:

    "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

    Let those good RL instincts save you from yourself here.

    EDIT: For those non-RL's who don't understand what I'm getting at, be glad you don't. RL's are part leader, part strategist, part babysitter, part psychologist, part arbitrator, part authority figure, and mostly nuts for taking the job. :-)

    You don't upset that apple cart for a 2.5% DPS increase from one of your best players.

    Go spend your time and energy working on a low performer, I'm sure you've got plenty (we all do).
    Last edited by jason1975; 2013-05-10 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #29
    jason1975
    Why?
    Why would you want to loose 2.5-3.5mil damage (as minimum) on every fight?
    Just imagine 1% wipe, boss is at 3mil hp and you are dead, boom!
    Stupid right?

  10. #30
    I would actually like to see some of these logs he's ranking in.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Find a new hunter.

    If you are unwilling to change something for a gain YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. If you don't use something that is a DPS gain because you "don't want to" YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Less when it's a very very minor gain (say 40k damage over the course of a 8 minute fight) more so when it's huge.

    Than again I know of lots of people who are bad players in good guilds/do good numbers. But they could be so much more.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-05-10 at 08:28 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    And here's the kicker:
    5. You're thinking about trying to force your high performing hunter to use an ability that he doesn't want to use for an extremely small gain.
    I wasn't even going to bother posting because enough people have answered OP's question, but that's just flat out wrong.

    Not using glaive toss is a 4k DPS loss on single target fights and even more on cleave fights. There's no way to romanticize around that -- this game is a math equation. You can't just magically make up for doing things wrong because you're an otherwise skilled player. He will never do as much DPS as an equally skilled hunter playing correctly.

    The fact that he apparently parses fine just means that he outgears the competition enough that he's able to brute force his way to the top. He isn't high performing if he plays his class wrong.

    If the raid leader doesn't want to micromanage and just wants to casually down content and have fun, then I completely understand letting small things slide. But there's no use sidestepping around the issue and acting like there's no problem at all.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Naggash View Post
    jason1975
    Why?
    Why would you want to loose 2.5-3.5mil damage (as minimum) on every fight?
    Just imagine 1% wipe, boss is at 3mil hp and you are dead, boom!
    Stupid right?
    Why would you pick a fight with one of your top DPS players over such a small difference?

    Let's examine possible outcomes from a RL perspective:

    Dream Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent and picks up 5k DPS average on many fights. Player accepts it willingly with no drama.

    Possible Good Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent and while their DPS drops slightly in the first week or so (new keybinds/rotation issues), it steadily rises until it's about 2500 DPS higher than before after 3 weeks. Player does so willingly with no drama.

    Possible Neutral Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent. No appreciable DPS gain.

    Possible Bad Scenario 1: Player begins using L90 talent. DPS drops a bit as they integrate it into their rotation unsuccessfully. Their DPS shows no measurable gain over the long term, but their raid awareness definitely goes down and RL notices Player seems to die a bit more often on fights. Also, while Player never says anything, RL thinks Player is a little pissed to be singled out for a coaching while outperforming a lot of other raiders.

    Possible Bad Scenario 2: Player is told to use L90 talent. Player responds that he'll do less DPS because he has to rekeybind and learn new rotation. RL tells him doesn't matter do it, you'll get used to it and we need the DPS. Player tells RL that he doesn't understand why he's being singled out, he's top DPS on fights A, B, and C, and has high ranked parses. He's played a hunter since TBC and knows the class better than some random posters on MMO that RL is listening to. He gives reason A, B, and C why the MMO players are wrong. RL, not having a 100% grasp of the class, is now put in an awkward position of trying to respond to him but basically either going with "because I said so" or trying a really weak reasoning of hunter mechanics that gets picked apart. Player wonders why RL isn't working on Raider 8, who everyone knows is carried or Raider 3 who struggles with movement fights and Player is always above them on the DPS meters. Player rightly points out that RL would probably get a lot more DPS out of working with them than trying to squeeze it out of his best DPS. Fight may or may not ensue. Drama may or may not ensue. Resentment may or may not ensue.

    These are things that RL's have to think about. Now, this may or may not pertain to the OP, only the OP can tell us. But even the most harmonious raid group has issues.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 02:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    I wasn't even going to bother posting because enough people have answered OP's question, but that's just flat out wrong.

    Not using glaive toss is a 4k DPS loss on single target fights and even more on cleave fights. There's no way to romanticize around that -- this game is a math equation. You can't just magically make up for doing things wrong because you're an otherwise skilled player. He will never do as much DPS as an equally skilled hunter playing correctly.

    The fact that he apparently parses fine just means that he outgears the competition enough that he's able to brute force his way to the top. He isn't high performing if he plays his class wrong.

    If the raid leader doesn't want to micromanage and just wants to casually down content and have fun, then I completely understand letting small things slide. But there's no use sidestepping around the issue and acting like there's no problem at all.
    It is a math problem and you left out raid awareness, reaction time, latency, player system hardware, the player's psychological state, the morale of the raid team, the restedness/fatigue of the team, etc.

    This hunter is good. Let's not be ridiculous about this. They play on a world class guild and is one of the top DPS for them. The fact that they do not push a button you think they should push when they should push it doesn't change that.

    But if RL was as easy as micromanaging the DPS rotation, everyone would be 13/13 H. But they aren't.

    This was already brought to the attention of the player. The player pushed back and basically said it would change their playstyle and lower their DPS. You might feel the player is full of crap, that's fine. The question is, are you now going to enforce your will on the Player?

    Bad things can happen when you do that, especially when you do it to a high performing player who feels what you want to do is going to hurt their performance.

    At that point, only the OP can tell us what those kinds of circumstances are. But that's what we're talking about.
    Last edited by jason1975; 2013-05-10 at 09:23 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Why would you pick a fight with one of your top DPS players over such a small difference?

    Let's examine possible outcomes from a RL perspective:

    Dream Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent and picks up 5k DPS average on many fights. Player accepts it willingly with no drama.

    Possible Good Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent and while their DPS drops slightly in the first week or so (new keybinds/rotation issues), it steadily rises until it's about 2500 DPS higher than before after 3 weeks. Player does so willingly with no drama.

    Possible Neutral Scenario: Player begins using L90 talent. No appreciable DPS gain.

    Possible Bad Scenario 1: Player begins using L90 talent. DPS drops a bit as they integrate it into their rotation unsuccessfully. Their DPS shows no measurable gain over the long term, but their raid awareness definitely goes down and RL notices Player seems to die a bit more often on fights. Also, while Player never says anything, RL thinks Player is a little pissed to be singled out for a coaching while outperforming a lot of other raiders.

    Possible Bad Scenario 2: Player is told to use L90 talent. Player responds that he'll do less DPS because he has to rekeybind and learn new rotation. RL tells him doesn't matter do it, you'll get used to it and we need the DPS. Player tells RL that he doesn't understand why he's being singled out, he's top DPS on fights A, B, and C, and has high ranked parses. He's played a hunter since TBC and knows the class better than some random posters on MMO that RL is listening to. He gives reason A, B, and C why the MMO players are wrong. RL, not having a 100% grasp of the class, is now put in an awkward position of trying to respond to him but basically either going with "because I said so" or trying a really weak reasoning of hunter mechanics that gets picked apart. Player wonders why RL isn't working on Raider 8, who everyone knows is carried or Raider 3 who struggles with movement fights and Player is always above them on the DPS meters. Player rightly points out that RL would probably get a lot more DPS out of working with them than trying to squeeze it out of his best DPS. Fight may or may not ensue. Drama may or may not ensue. Resentment may or may not ensue.

    These are things that RL's have to think about. Now, this may or may not pertain to the OP, only the OP can tell us. But even the most harmonious raid group has issues.
    I kinda don't get your point of view.

    Glaive Toss, for example, is BENEFICIAL thing. In a single player game there is no difference whatsoever. Like, you are playing Far Cry 3, and you decide to handicap yourself by never using a Sniper Rifle, which helps in many situations. Or never skinning an animal. Who cares, right? It's just your game, your doing it for yourself, have fun playing.

    When playing a multiplayer game, you shouldn't have a careless attitude about how beneficial you are to your team. Other 9 (or 24) people in the raid are, in fact, living beings, right? Since they team up with you, the reason is probably that they trust you will do your best to help them out.

    And do you? Here is one example. Tortos bats. Those adds are very, very hard for a tank to pick up fast, and they should be burned down ASAP, so waiting for threat generation isn't an efficient way. There is, however, one, I reapeat one, thing in the game that makes this easy. Hunter using MD. And level 90 talent - Barrage. With a single macro, mindless click, all bats are flying right towards the tank. Elimination of one of the most annoying things in the fight with a single click.

    And now, we have a hunter that REFUSES to use a level 90 talent. How many wipes did you have on Tortos thanks to inability to aggro all bats at once, or lack of focused AoE dps? If you have had even one, your hunter is the sole reason that caused it. Your hunter with his elitist attitude of "I decide not to use something so here we go, I won't use it for no exact reason".

    Next step is Brewmaster Monk not using Blackout Kick. What, Breath of Fire causes more damage and is way cooler. Our healers seem to be decently geared, they should handle some additional damage on me. If I die, it's their fault.

  15. #35
    The Patient CrenVerdis's Avatar
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    First off: I've read many comments on mmo lately that boggle my mind. Mostly purely because misinformed players share misinformation.

    Same as the haste vs crit thread here I _MAY_ see some evidence that it _MIGHT_ be beneficial to forgo GT for an additional AS. The reason being 4-set scales well with haste (RPPM procc) and mastery (arcane damage). So there could be a breaking point of haste and mastery which leads to a better overall AS.
    I highly doubt it but I don't pull forks and torches either. So, dear op, I would look over your fellow hunter and numbercrunch his values to check. Otherwise I would like to assume you are trolling and I will follow this trace of thought when my hunter (ex main - now twink) reaches the itemlevel where this phenomena could be a concern. You could pm me his profile for discreteness.


    Before I finish this post:
    @jason1975: Why would you accept that you COULD perform better. When theorycrafting like most "serious" raider you consider even gains in the 1% area. That should be the intention of the player. If he did it then he should have some mathematical proof to back it up, especially because he is in one of the better guilds. I'm checking a few parses now to see if this is a common thought in the elite top .5%. Where so far, it doesn't look like it.
    At the end of the day you don't force people. You simply can't, but chances are, when you jerk around with fellow guildies that theorycrafting is getting a topic where you could place this argument.
    And yes. I RL partitially. I RL'd on progress. I know that feel, but I also know the mentality you and your guild as a community go into raids like this. But otherwise I agree with you! ^^

    Greetings from good ol' Germany,
    Cren Verdis
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    I kinda don't get your point of view.

    Glaive Toss, for example, is BENEFICIAL thing. In a single player game there is no difference whatsoever. Like, you are playing Far Cry 3, and you decide to handicap yourself by never using a Sniper Rifle, which helps in many situations. Or never skinning an animal. Who cares, right? It's just your game, your doing it for yourself, have fun playing.

    When playing a multiplayer game, you shouldn't have a careless attitude about how beneficial you are to your team. Other 9 (or 24) people in the raid are, in fact, living beings, right? Since they team up with you, the reason is probably that they trust you will do your best to help them out.

    And do you? Here is one example. Tortos bats. Those adds are very, very hard for a tank to pick up fast, and they should be burned down ASAP, so waiting for threat generation isn't an efficient way. There is, however, one, I reapeat one, thing in the game that makes this easy. Hunter using MD. And level 90 talent - Barrage. With a single macro, mindless click, all bats are flying right towards the tank. Elimination of one of the most annoying things in the fight with a single click.

    And now, we have a hunter that REFUSES to use a level 90 talent. How many wipes did you have on Tortos thanks to inability to aggro all bats at once, or lack of focused AoE dps? If you have had even one, your hunter is the sole reason that caused it. Your hunter with his elitist attitude of "I decide not to use something so here we go, I won't use it for no exact reason".

    Next step is Brewmaster Monk not using Blackout Kick. What, Breath of Fire causes more damage and is way cooler. Our healers seem to be decently geared, they should handle some additional damage on me. If I die, it's their fault.
    1. Nobody is arguing that the L90 talent used optimally wouldn't be 4-5K better.
    2. Hunter is arguing that his DPS will go down if he has to redo his keybinds etc (read the OP). Hunter isn't saying "lolz I dun want to uz it". Hunter is making an argument based on his performance being better without it. He's saying the raid will be better off with him doing what he's doing. Frankly from the results (360-ish guilds in the world at 8/13 H, the hunter being one of their top DPS), it's a hard point to argue the counter for the RL.
    3. Your brewmaster example is that of an underperforming player being carried. This is not the case here. The hunter is probably carrying other players (every raid has at least 1 carry).

    4. As a RL you need to know how to pick your battles. The benefit is tiny. The risk could be huge (again, only the OP can tell us, maybe it's not a big deal). It's not a cut and dried "OMG kick that noob" like many of these responses portray.
    5. If the hunter is one of the players the RL "never has to worry about", I'm guessing the RL's time and political capital is best focused on the players the RL does have to worry about.

    At this point I think the OP has heard point and counterpoint. They have a decision to make.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Why would you pick a fight with one of your top DPS players over such a small difference?
    This hunter is good. Let's not be ridiculous about this. They play on a world class guild and is one of the top DPS for them. The fact that they do not push a button you think they should push when they should push it doesn't change that.

    But if RL was as easy as micromanaging the DPS rotation, everyone would be 13/13 H. But they aren't.

    This was already brought to the attention of the player. The player pushed back and basically said it would change their playstyle and lower their DPS. You might feel the player is full of crap, that's fine. The question is, are you now going to enforce your will on the Player?
    To get it out of the way, I don't care if their hunter uses Glaive Toss or not. They can do whatever they want. If they want a hunter who raids in mittens and only uses Aspect of the Hawk on odd numbered minutes because that's what he likes, then they're free to do that. There have been plenty of times when I've raided with less skilled players and had no problem with it because they were enjoyable to be around and didn't hinder us too much.

    But he isn't a good player if he does that. Let's not kid ourselves. The fact that he (apparently) parses decent means absolutely nothing.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    1. Nobody is arguing that the L90 talent used optimally wouldn't be 4-5K better.
    2. Hunter is arguing that his DPS will go down if he has to redo his keybinds etc (read the OP). Hunter isn't saying "lolz I dun want to uz it". Hunter is making an argument based on his performance being better without it. He's saying the raid will be better off with him doing what he's doing. Frankly from the results (360-ish guilds in the world at 8/13 H, the hunter being one of their top DPS), it's a hard point to argue the counter for the RL.
    3. Your brewmaster example is that of an underperforming player being carried. This is not the case here. The hunter is probably carrying other players (every raid has at least 1 carry).

    4. As a RL you need to know how to pick your battles. The benefit is tiny. The risk could be huge (again, only the OP can tell us, maybe it's not a big deal). It's not a cut and dried "OMG kick that noob" like many of these responses portray.
    5. If the hunter is one of the players the RL "never has to worry about", I'm guessing the RL's time and political capital is best focused on the players the RL does have to worry about.

    At this point I think the OP has heard point and counterpoint. They have a decision to make.
    I gave you the Tortos example. I'm not a RL, but if my OT was shitting himself trying to get aggro on all those bats, I would kinda do my best to get the simplest and most effective solution. A hunter who has one damn button to press every one minute or so IS that solution.

    And, for your "redoing keybinds" point: GT is basically a better Arcane Shot, simple enough. You bind AS and GT to one button. There is NO ROOM for the loss of dps. Even if your new keybind infuriates you and causes trauma, you can simply press the button to do your standard Arcane Shot. And wait until the panic attack is over to use a Glaive Toss. Yep, you gained dps.

    I would agree if RL was trying to force a raider to do something very unforgiving and painfull for a lesser gain. Example: Hunter is playing MM and does x dps. RL sees on noxxic that BM should be able to do x+10 dps, so forces the hunter to go BM. Since the hunter can't play this spec as good, the dps lands at x-10. And, while the hunter knows that he will be able to reach his old dps eventually, he will hate every second of it.

    Now, we have a no-brainer. No room to lose dps. No room to hate or be inefficient in new rotation. There is one skill that makes your dps go higher, not using it makes the dps go lower. Hunter not using Explosive Shot in Survival should use it. Hunter not using level 90 talent should use one. Or every additional second of any fight he is in is him deliberately wasting everybodys time.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by CrenVerdis View Post
    Same as the haste vs crit thread here I _MAY_ see some evidence that it _MIGHT_ be beneficial to forgo GT for an additional AS. The reason being 4-set scales well with haste (RPPM procc) and mastery (arcane damage). So there could be a breaking point of haste and mastery which leads to a better overall AS.
    I've thought about this before I posted, but here are my views, opinions and theory crafting on the situation.

    1. A breaking point regarding haste.
    Long story short, there will never be a breaking point that makes it more beneficial to use an Arcane Shot over Glaive Toss unless you are swimming in so much focus that you are constantly capping, and the only way to prevent capping is to use a more expensive to cast Arcane Shot. This haste breakpoint however, is currently impossible to reach. Thus haste and focus overflow isn't relevant, not this expansion at least.

    2. A breaking point regarding mastery where Arcane Shot might overtake Glaive Toss.
    This is the only point that has any merit. Yes there definitely is a point in which Arcane Shot is worth more to cast compared to Glaive Toss. But again even if you go full mastery in almost full BiS gear you are probably not reaching that point. This however I didn't do any math on, but it's possible.

    3. Arcane Shot procs the 4 piece.
    The 4 piece bonus is an RPPM mechanic. Long story short, if you don't use an Arcane Shot I'll proc off the next one. You will see the same amount of procs if you shoot 50 or 500 Arcane Shots in a minute (roughly).
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-05-11 at 05:16 PM.
    Bovan.9481
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Conando View Post
    But he isn't a good player if he does that. Let's not kid ourselves. The fact that he (apparently) parses decent means absolutely nothing.
    So if his parses don't matter (let's ignore scumbag dps possibilities here as we have no logs), then what does? His statement of his rotation? People can know something really well and fail to execute it properly. Happens in raiding all the time (and in professional sports, performance arts, etc). So then what is the measure of a "good" player?

    IMO, if he parses well without scumbag DPS, then it does absolutely mean something. Ignoring reality (being a top DPS in an 8/13 H top 360-ish guild) for a theoretical (what his rotation "should" be) doesn't seem like an effective way to evaluate players as a RL.

    Frankly, I suspect a lot more bosses would die if most players turned off their recounts and spent more time fixing their positioning, coordination, and communication skills than spending hours talking/theorcrafting a 1-2% DPS difference.

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