1. #1

    Replacing DB with ToTH for 4set bonus?

    Like stated in the tittle, how valid is that? Just got my 4th piece. I never liked dire beast for some reason and would be glad to replace it.

    Edit: survival

  2. #2
    If you're going to change, go for Fervor.

    I used ToTH before, but i ended up focus capping alot because of the random procc. Fervor is focus on demand.


    Also! The 4set is rppm, so if you want it to procc more you need more haste. Doesnt matter how many AS you use.
    Last edited by Hoofey; 2013-05-15 at 09:50 AM.

  3. #3
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,495
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofey View Post
    Also! The 4set is rppm, so if you want it to procc more you need more haste. Doesnt matter how many AS you use.
    Is that really correct? I know haste increases proc chance, but certainly the amount of hits with that particular attack matters too? Like if you do 50 AS one time, and then 100 AS another, you can expect a higher number of procs on the later (on average).

  4. #4
    RPPM in the nutshell - if you fire 50AS you have 50% chance to trigger Lighting Arrow. If you, however, fire 100AS you have 25% chance to trigger Lighting Arrow.
    On average, you should see the same number of procs.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    RPPM in the nutshell - if you fire 50AS you have 50% chance to trigger Lighting Arrow. If you, however, fire 100AS you have 25% chance to trigger Lighting Arrow.
    On average, you should see the same number of procs.
    I dont think thats correct. How would game decide if you have 25 or 50% chance? It wont know in advance how many you will use during the encounter.

    I am not sure how rppm works with procs from skills. Trinkets are easy since they calculate the chance to proc dynamically each sec and its easier to get a mathematical model. Lets say you attack 1/sec (0 haste) and its 1 RPPM.

    The chance to proc the trinket would be 1/60 with each attack.

    Hunter set bonuses are a bit tougher since they can only proc when u actually use the skill and have no icd so each use of the skill has some probability to proc. Lets say 4set has 1RPPM and u have 0% haste. That means that if you use AS each minute you will get 1 proc. Now what happens when u spam it like crazy. First one will proc the effect and then what about rest of the AS. Since the game doesnt know that after each of them you will use another one it has to decide what are your chances to proc the effect. The formula most likely includes time from last proc (this was added sometime ago to help with unlucky streaks).

    The game cannot calculate how many AS you will do per minute and has to have some algorythm to determine whats the % chance to proc when u actually use the skill. In my opinion its possible that spamming the skill would actually increase the number of procs, unless the model includes the whole time spent in current combat.

  6. #6
    unbuffed I think my hast is around 25% and the 4 piece set procs approx 33% and tends to overall do about 2.5% of my damage in long or short fights. I had been tracking this to see how I liked it. Even buffed in a raid with using cooldowns its still sits at ~2.5% of my overall damage. Not really sure if this is worth it =P OH and im BM so this would differ for Surv because of mastery. On the actual switching from DB... I think the other posts here have given you proper details.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    I dont think thats correct. How would game decide if you have 25 or 50% chance? It wont know in advance how many you will use during the encounter.

    I am not sure how rppm works with procs from skills. Trinkets are easy since they calculate the chance to proc dynamically each sec and its easier to get a mathematical model. Lets say you attack 1/sec (0 haste) and its 1 RPPM.

    The chance to proc the trinket would be 1/60 with each attack.

    Hunter set bonuses are a bit tougher since they can only proc when u actually use the skill and have no icd so each use of the skill has some probability to proc. Lets say 4set has 1RPPM and u have 0% haste. That means that if you use AS each minute you will get 1 proc. Now what happens when u spam it like crazy. First one will proc the effect and then what about rest of the AS. Since the game doesnt know that after each of them you will use another one it has to decide what are your chances to proc the effect. The formula most likely includes time from last proc (this was added sometime ago to help with unlucky streaks).

    The game cannot calculate how many AS you will do per minute and has to have some algorythm to determine whats the % chance to proc when u actually use the skill. In my opinion its possible that spamming the skill would actually increase the number of procs, unless the model includes the whole time spent in current combat.
    Conjor did an excellent post a bit back about the math behind it if you are interested. I believe the consensus was that spamming more increased your chances by a negligible amount and it was considered not worth it (especially in the case of Cobra for the 2pc.) You should however throw a cobra into your opener now to trigger the 2pc during the opener. (due to the 'time since last proc' almost guaranteeing one at the start of the fight)

    Link here as I'm new:

    /threads/1273942-RPPM-Analysis-Haste-Benefits-5-2-Trinket-Analysis

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    I dont think thats correct. How would game decide if you have 25 or 50% chance? It wont know in advance how many you will use during the encounter.

    I am not sure how rppm works with procs from skills. Trinkets are easy since they calculate the chance to proc dynamically each sec and its easier to get a mathematical model. Lets say you attack 1/sec (0 haste) and its 1 RPPM.

    The chance to proc the trinket would be 1/60 with each attack.

    Hunter set bonuses are a bit tougher since they can only proc when u actually use the skill and have no icd so each use of the skill has some probability to proc. Lets say 4set has 1RPPM and u have 0% haste. That means that if you use AS each minute you will get 1 proc. Now what happens when u spam it like crazy. First one will proc the effect and then what about rest of the AS. Since the game doesnt know that after each of them you will use another one it has to decide what are your chances to proc the effect. The formula most likely includes time from last proc (this was added sometime ago to help with unlucky streaks).

    The game cannot calculate how many AS you will do per minute and has to have some algorythm to determine whats the % chance to proc when u actually use the skill. In my opinion its possible that spamming the skill would actually increase the number of procs, unless the model includes the whole time spent in current combat.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893549789#1
    http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...oc-based-buff/
    http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...advanced-rppm/

    Quote Originally Posted by Daxxarri
    For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daxxarri
    Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,495
    That's a lot of advanced information. If you do understand it all, could you simply confirm whether shooting off more AS will trigger more 4pc procs or not?

  10. #10
    Simplification of those threads was my post above - it doesn't.

  11. #11
    it does not.

    basically what the formula expresses is this:
    there is a basic average amount of procs per minute you can have from your 4p/2p/rppm trinkets
    haste modifies this value. haste becomes ever so slightly stronger than crit on a single target (or so people have calculated), but totaly sucks for aoe.
    the system checks how long it has been since your last proc and then modifies your proc chance accordingly, because for every second above the average that this effect has not been triggered, its chance to trigger will rise.

    a simple way to really understand this system empirically is aquirering a rppm item, such as one of the tot trinkets.
    just stand for 10 minutes and do nothing. then attack a target and you will pretty much always see the proc on the first one or two hits.

  12. #12
    Thanks guys! So basically it shouldn't matter I guess. I was trying to test it a couple of hours before and it seems you're about right- with ToTH its about 4-5 per minute~ and without its still about 4. Guess it means sticking to DB. I don't like fervor even more then DB for some reason, I never really go out of focus anyway. Thanks again, cheers.

  13. #13
    To clarify, the way the formula works is that the chance for proc is modified by the time since the last change to proc. So if it has been longer since your last chance to proc, it increases the chances of your next proc. That being said, that modifier caps at 10 seconds, so if you are using the ability less often than every 10 seconds, then that will reduce your proc rate. As long as you use it once every 10 seconds, the proc rate should not vary significantly.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    That's a lot of advanced information. If you do understand it all, could you simply confirm whether shooting off more AS will trigger more 4pc procs or not?
    To reiterate on top of what's been said here, you will have the same chance if you shoot 5 arcane shots in 10 seconds compared to 10 arcane shots. If that makes sense. The Real PPM formula for determining proc chance is dynamic. It takes the time since last chance to proc and adds that into the current %, so regardless of how fast you attack, if it's within the 10 second limit the proc chance will be the same.

    Signature by Geekissexy Check out her Deviantart

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •