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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrodie0 View Post
    play Aion or TERA or GW2 you dont have to pay anything if you dont want too and you dont miss out on anything from not paying... you just made the biggest generalisation yet.
    It is my IMO, nothing else. I've played Aion, it is horrible grindfest with awful content. The only thing I liked there was how craft system worked. I've played GW2, and it is just not fit my style of gaming, no role = zergfest; also it is World of Lonelyness nowadays, and its client has performance issues. I've played Tera, it is just awful to me - almost no content, grindfest and zergfest again. We have a kind of repetitive tendency here or something, no?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrodie0 View Post
    we must have played 2 different games.. SWTOR was anything but amazing, i honestly cant imagine it's got any better either considering how hard they locked it down with the freemium model they give you... Aion, GW2, TERA, Neverwtiner... those are decent free to play models... SWTOR is a terrible game with a terrible model
    SWTOR has actually made very good steps in recent months. Also, all of the "lock downs" can be removed with unlocks purchased from the Cartel Market or with in game currency. I have been able to unlock all of the UI restrictions without paying a dime of real money. Secondly, you get restricted by only so many flashpoints/warzones a week and you would have to buy a weekly pass. Weekly passes are generally on the GTN for in game currency. I currently have about 2 months of passes for Ops and FP's banked. Still haven't paid a dime. XP restriction while leveling is easily offset with XP boosts... again found on in game GTN. only restriction you end up not being able to work around is the 350k credit limit... which really isn't much of a restriction at all if you are patient.

    But thats where alot of things fall to... Patience.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrick View Post
    SWTOR has actually made very good steps in recent months. Also, all of the "lock downs" can be removed with unlocks purchased from the Cartel Market or with in game currency. I have been able to unlock all of the UI restrictions without paying a dime of real money. Secondly, you get restricted by only so many flashpoints/warzones a week and you would have to buy a weekly pass. Weekly passes are generally on the GTN for in game currency. I currently have about 2 months of passes for Ops and FP's banked. Still haven't paid a dime. XP restriction while leveling is easily offset with XP boosts... again found on in game GTN. only restriction you end up not being able to work around is the 350k credit limit... which really isn't much of a restriction at all if you are patient.

    But thats where alot of things fall to... Patience.
    that's right...patience =/= grind. ive spent more time grinding things in guild wars 1 than I ever did in WoW. ever! and that's because they want you in the game long enough to gain possible money from you. sure, you have conversions for currencies in game but, the price is that it takes a tremendous grind to do so. so the time you spend grinding up these currencies to save a few coins you're missing out on gameplay.

    again, how b2p or f2p ends up crashing and burning over time and people lose respect.

  4. #44
    Dreadlord Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteRetro View Post
    With upcoming games like Final Fantasy 14 ARR, ArcheAge and Wildstar, I'd happily pay a sub.
    I always prefer games with a sub because the dev has no excuses not to be making content constantly, it keeps the odd crowd out of the MMO, and it's cheaper in the long run, unless you're one of those who plays for free forever.

    It also feels better. You want a ride in the park, you pay the fee and play in until the time's up, and don't have to worry if the rides are safe, if there isn't ketchup on the seats, if there's that one guy/girl behind you who will puke on your new shirt, etc. There's more polish in these types of games for obvious reasons, plus, people are invested if they are paying for the game monthly and they want to get things done, they generally are able to communicate better, and they care about their time spent ingame. This is my experience from years of playing both P2P and F2P games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Killyo View Post
    If at launch day they find 150 freshly created threads saying " OMG BLIZZERD! y u did remove my birdyflapflap? u suxs! i will stope playn tis stuped game if u not give backe my birdyflapflap!". When that happens, and it will, they'll reintroduce flying real fast again.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrodie0 View Post
    actually most of the people on prepaid are the ones who cant afford the plan.. my samsung galaxy S3 came included in my plan.. i didnt have to buy it...
    well dunno where you live but in the netherland you got 3 option. a sim only plan. a plan inc a new mobile phone. and a pre paid. i'll leave pre paid out because it has noting to do with the sim only vs normal mobile phone plans.

    because a 300min 1750mb(normal speed) free use of sms and a s4 for free. it cost you 30.25 for the first 6 months. after that its 60.25. so lets sum this up.

    6x 30.25 = 183 euro.
    18x 60.25 = 1084,50 euro. but i'll make it 1084

    so thats a total of 1267 euro for 2 years.

    now we take a sim only plan.

    now a sim only abo with 500m 1750mb(normal speed) and free use of sms. so you get 200 min a month more.

    24x 37.00 euro 888

    so its 888 euro for 2 years vs 1267 euro and less daily min.
    tell me again you didn't pay for your phone.

    and the devs of neverwinter said they didn't bother to balance pvp nor pve atm because it didn't bring them any profit atm.
    that is one of the reason i stopt playing.
    Last edited by loki504; 2013-05-10 at 11:56 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    I don't mind if the game isn't free but a company shouldn't be charging me $50 for a game Disk I cannot use without a monthly investment.
    So yeah Either charge me to purchase the game and don't require a subscription fee or charge me a subscription but don't require me to buy the game.

    I mean the movie industry does not charge me to buy a movie then expect me to pay a fee every time I view it.
    (though they would be much more profitable if they switched to digital distribution and simply charged $1-2 per view)
    This makes the most sence, but the reason they charge for the copy is to make sure they make profit from you the moment you start playing. Take Swtor as example, they made a lot of profit because of the copies sold...I doubt any profit would have beeen made if it was on fee price only.

    Personally I'd say the game copy should cost less then the normal games. Let's say an MMORPG game costs 30 euros for the copy, if you played for 2-3 months you would have been charged for the same amount of a SP game.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Perosnally, I think I would prefer my MMO to have a sub. It's more of a guarantee of content being released in the future. Or it is most of the time lol

    Also, I would just like to point out that people keep saying that you don't have to spend a penny on GW2 and they seem to consider it F2P. This is untrue. You have to buy the game, making it B2P. It is, of course, free to play the game afterwards though.

    Rarely updated...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    I always prefer games with a sub because the dev has no excuses not to be making content constantly, it keeps the odd crowd out of the MMO, and it's cheaper in the long run, unless you're one of those who plays for free forever.

    It also feels better. You want a ride in the park, you pay the fee and play in until the time's up, and don't have to worry if the rides are safe, if there isn't ketchup on the seats, if there's that one guy/girl behind you who will puke on your new shirt, etc. There's more polish in these types of games for obvious reasons, plus, people are invested if they are paying for the game monthly and they want to get things done, they generally are able to communicate better, and they care about their time spent ingame. This is my experience from years of playing both P2P and F2P games.
    exactly man. I think they should sometimes offer an alternative sub, like they did with LOTRO, a lifetime subscription would be ideal as a choice.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    Isn't it true that WoW would still be massively profitable without a sub fee?

    People just don't want to be ripped off any longer, except those that pay $40 for in-game pets and mounts in beta p2w games of course.
    They made 2 million in just two hours with that ugly mount they put in their online store. People must be crazy if they want to defend something like that. Do you think they put millions into making a lame virtual mount? Probably one person altered an already excisting mount a little bit and then put a skin on it that was already used multiple times ingame in a few hours time.
    The problem is that people apparently don't mind to get ripped off so there is no reason to change anything.

    When I started playing WoW I thought it was worth a monthly fee (because of quality and the time I spend on it). But now... not so much.

  10. #50
    The Patient Kenshin's Avatar
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    FFXIV ARR will be pay to play, and I really think it looks really good so far from the updates I have seen. I avoid f2p, as i want to be able to access everything in a game by working to get it, not just open my wallet and use my VISA every time I see something I would like getting for my character.

    I also do not like hearing people say. Unless I can play it for free, it isnt worth it. If you cant afford it, sorry but you cant get everything you want in this world.

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    I actually prefer MMO's that have a subscription fee, it tends to keep a lot of the douchebags out while putting a demand on the developer to also keep delivering content.

    About free to play MMO's, all of them have micro transactions and cash shops they live off, while there is no upfront payment needed they sustain themselves in other manners.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteRetro View Post
    Its something I've noticed for the longest time, but what the hell is with a large portion of mmo gamers that always want every mmo game either out or coming out to be free? Talk about being f'ing welfare if you ask me. These developers work tirelessly for months or years on creating a completely open and always online experience and you want it free? I suppose every game developer should just give you their game and hope and pray you will give them some charity for their work.

    Of all the genres mmo gamers are the most welfare in attitude. They want to avoid a sub cost at ANY cost as with a box price if need be, just like someone pirating games, think they have a right to have it all for nothing and just 'pay when they think the developer deserves my support' kind of mentality.

    Its also ironic that in the same breath, these very same people will complain and cry over the complete full frontal monetisation of nearly every aspect of their said 'free game' and never piece the dots together as to why its suddenly become pay 2 win?

    With upcoming games like Final Fantasy 14 ARR, ArcheAge and Wildstar, I'd happily pay a sub.
    The developers would still be paid if the game was free or not. Why does it matter?

    Im not sure if this thread is actually legit or not but what I would like to add is this:

    If MMO gamers are so welfare, then why are MMO's really the only game types that you haveto have a subscription for? Wouldn't that technically make everyone else the welfare seeing as they get their game for a relatively cheap one time fee (that the MMO players pay for ontop of their sub fees.)

    And tbh, other games (LoL for one) have MUCH worse communities than MMO's, I could go for weeks or even months playing WoW without being insulted in some way, all I need to do is play 1 or 2 games of LoL and ill be abused guaranteed.

    Abandoning thread before I begin breaking rules, good luck in life OP.
    Last edited by Oncereborn; 2013-05-10 at 12:20 PM.

  13. #53
    The thing is that saying I want mmo X to be f2p is not really saying its completely free. Those games have micro-transactions instead. You pay for the content you want. Now there is problems with this, developers that are over zealous with their model and have you pay for basic functionality which imo is a bad design. But more and more as companies try it they find ways to make it work right, Less pay to win and more pay to have extra. I think GW2 model of x characters slots, after that pay for more is an extremely good idea. That is the type of good micro transaction models. These business models are successful and that is why you see more and more developers trying it. I recently read a thing that was saying that SWTOR has been doing better since they went free to play. GW2 is doing very well I believe but I haven't really looked in awhile.

    I think what I want to see the most eventually would be an mmo that sold extra content through that model. As an example, imagine in wow if instead of subscription. You just paid say 10 buck for a next raid zone. 5 bucks for a new zone to explore and quest in. maybe 5 again for a new battleground to play in. I'd love this because as a primarily PVE oriented player I pay for the stuff I want vs just paying fore everything they release no matter how much I disliked their choices. As an example, I admit I find the pet battles in MoP interesting but if I could have purchased MoP without pet battles for like 10 dollars cheaper I would have. Maybe later I decide hey it does look fun and I then later pay to unlock that content. If you really consider right now. With the fact that you typically get a content patch in MoP every 3 to 4 months your paying between 40-60 dollars for each content patch. Doesn't sound to bad for a new raid zone. But honestly I don't think 5.1 is worth that much. When you consider that the reputation required for that faction gates the content its very short, if you could just play through all the quests that are not dailies straight, its probably 4 hours of game play.

    But the picture perfect form of micro transactions to me is probably more suited to a game with heavy sandbox game play that featured theme box in it to reveal the lore.

    TLDR: F2P is not saying I want a free pizza. Its like two competing pizza shops. At the first I pay by the topping; I want cheese on my pizza for $5, I want pepperoni as well for an extra $3; actually lets make it half that and the other half is instead veggie for another $4, my total is $12. Another place says you have to buy 2 pizzas for 20 bucks and you get whatever you want on it them. That is a fine deal but what if I don't want a second pizza. I am forced into paying 8 extra for something I don't really want.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    I always prefer games with a sub because the dev has no excuses not to be making content constantly, it keeps the odd crowd out of the MMO, and it's cheaper in the long run, unless you're one of those who plays for free forever.

    It also feels better. You want a ride in the park, you pay the fee and play in until the time's up, and don't have to worry if the rides are safe, if there isn't ketchup on the seats, if there's that one guy/girl behind you who will puke on your new shirt, etc. There's more polish in these types of games for obvious reasons, plus, people are invested if they are paying for the game monthly and they want to get things done, they generally are able to communicate better, and they care about their time spent ingame. This is my experience from years of playing both P2P and F2P games.
    I rather pay for new content when they release it instead of paying for new content in front without really knowing what they will release. I didn't want pokemon in WoW but I did pay for it. I understand it can't really work like that.

    The devs will also focus on keeping you playing with all sorts of crap because they want your money. Just look at WoW with it's grinds (which I don't mind) and it's gear resets (wiping out all you have done before, which I do mind) just to keep you busy. Or all the artificial walls, releasing content over time, points with caps, reputation with caps and much more.

    I rather just buy the game, finish it and then buy new content IF I want it. They will give support anyway to increase their sales so a subscription is really not needed. I also do not need the constant "balancing" Blizzard does. Classes change every week, it's just ridiculous.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evokanu View Post
    I actually prefer MMO's that have a subscription fee, it tends to keep a lot of the douchebags out while putting a demand on the developer to also keep delivering content.

    About free to play MMO's, all of them have micro transactions and cash shops they live off, while there is no upfront payment needed they sustain themselves in other manners.
    WoW has no douchebags? That's new to me.

    And Blizzard can basically do whatever they want. I really don't think they are more pressured to create content than they would have with another business model.

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk Zogarth's Avatar
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    I think the best model there is, is a F2P game with an optimal subscribtion. Only stuff you should be able to buy is cosmetic stuff and small boosts and account services. Nothing you can use in-game that actually gives any kind of stats or anything. Subsribers should then monthly get some of the currency used in the in-game store, some small convenience things (Like priority login and stuff like that).

    I am also perfectly fine with buy to play, and then a microtransaction store. But no sub fee here. I have always despised Blizzard for forcing you to buy the game+expansion, pay a sub fee, AND on top of that pay for in-game services like char transfers and faction change.
    Last edited by Zogarth; 2013-05-10 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteRetro View Post
    Its something I've noticed for the longest time, but what the hell is with a large portion of mmo gamers that always want every mmo game either out or coming out to be free? Talk about being f'ing welfare if you ask me. These developers work tirelessly for months or years on creating a completely open and always online experience and you want it free? I suppose every game developer should just give you their game and hope and pray you will give them some charity for their work.

    Of all the genres mmo gamers are the most welfare in attitude. They want to avoid a sub cost at ANY cost as with a box price if need be, just like someone pirating games, think they have a right to have it all for nothing and just 'pay when they think the developer deserves my support' kind of mentality.

    Its also ironic that in the same breath, these very same people will complain and cry over the complete full frontal monetisation of nearly every aspect of their said 'free game' and never piece the dots together as to why its suddenly become pay 2 win?

    With upcoming games like Final Fantasy 14 ARR, ArcheAge and Wildstar, I'd happily pay a sub.

    I wild gladly pay a sub for Wildstar for others not so much maybe Rift.

    I don't think it is possible to have a epic MMO without a subscription. A Good MMO like Guildwars or Star Wars? Maybe but they are not epic they have many flaws.

    Now WildStar made by the creators of Vanila and The Burning Crusade, theya re making a game for Veterans I am really looking forward for it.
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
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    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
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  17. #57
    I partly agree with you OP. It is bewildering to me why lots of players seem to demand mmogs to be free-to-play. Some of these games require quite extensive amounts of resources to be developed properly, and for the developers to just hope players will pay something for the game is way too big a risk.

    Not to mention it rarely works. It's something similar to how public test realms work for Blizzard: most participants hardly do any bug reporting, they are just there to play. It's through indirect means that ptrs are mostly useful to developers because of that. Similarly i free-to-play mmogs most players are there for the free ride, and never will give even a cent if they are not forced directly or indirectly by the game.

    However, a game's worth of paying a subscription for it largely depends on its content as well. The only game I ever felt completely satisfied to be paying a subscription for was World of WarCraft, during vanilla. With eight playable racial factions, eight classes each with three specialisations and hybrid builds, six racial campaigns, neutral campaigns, tenths of zones to quest, explore and in general advanture in, tenths of group dungeons, a nice variety of battlegrounds, etc, the game was just freaking enormous, with enough material to keep a sacual player busy for months, if not years if he/she was into delving in all available parts of the game. For such an effort I would gladly pay a subscription fee. However, no other game since has offered that amount of content, yes, Rift included, and not even WoW itself, which severely reduced its amount of content with its first expansion.

    So, the amount and quality of content also plays a huge role to me. With World of WarCraft, during vanilla, it was almost like playing four-five games bunched together. So it was worth it to say the least. With anything since then, not that much. Even WoW right now is hard for me to rationalise paying for the subscription, just to talk to some friends and grind stuff. When new content for most mmorpgs means a zone filled with dailies then something is wrong. Can't understand why a game should be bringing in hundreds of millions for its company while the players get so little. So things are not that black and white in my opinion.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-05-10 at 12:44 PM.

  18. #58
    Is it really that hard to figure out why a lot of people don't want to pay a subscription fee for an MMO?

    Cost is an issue for a lot of people, whether it's because they just can't afford it, or because they think it's not worth the sheer amount of money you end up paying for one game, it's a major factor.

    For me, I can easily afford to pay a subscription, but never will again because:

    a) I'm not a mono-gamer, so I would rather not continue to pay for one game, when I'm actually playing others.

    b) Absolutely no sub game ever has had enough content to justify the cost of a subscription, and Free to Play and Buy to Play games often match the content and quality, so it's obviously not required to make content or support the game.

    c) Time. I don't have enough to be able to get my money's worth out of a game with a subscription fee. I work over 40 hours a week, and probably get an hour or two to game on a weekday at most. To someone who can dedicate 5 times the amount of time per day to playing the game it may not seems so bad as the cost per hour is much less, but multiply that by 5 and I wonder how many of those players would still think it was worth it.

  19. #59
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    OP: Amateur!
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mothhive View Post
    Is it really that hard to figure out why a lot of people don't want to pay a subscription fee for an MMO?

    Cost is an issue for a lot of people, whether it's because they just can't afford it, or because they think it's not worth the sheer amount of money you end up paying for one game, it's a major factor.

    For me, I can easily afford to pay a subscription, but never will again because:

    a) I'm not a mono-gamer, so I would rather not continue to pay for one game, when I'm actually playing others.

    b) Absolutely no sub game ever has had enough content to justify the cost of a subscription, and Free to Play and Buy to Play games often match the content and quality, so it's obviously not required to make content or support the game.

    c) Time. I don't have enough to be able to get my money's worth out of a game with a subscription fee. I work over 40 hours a week, and probably get an hour or two to game on a weekday at most. To someone who can dedicate 5 times the amount of time per day to playing the game it may not seems so bad as the cost per hour is much less, but multiply that by 5 and I wonder how many of those players would still think it was worth it.
    no free to play or buy to play game has matched the content WoW has. That's just the facts. people pay for mobile phone plans and yet may not use it to their maximum. they'd better unsub

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