1. #1

    The design philosophy that has been ruining WoW

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    Been challenging for us when folks who play 2 hours a night and folks who play 2 a week want to progress at similar rates.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    Others don't want to have to play more than once or twice a week but don't want to fall behind.


    Just wondering if we are all on the same page in regards to what makes a good MMO. There's so many wrong things with GC's statements that I don't even know how to start.

    I guess it just boils down to "trying to cater to everyone" vs "picking your target audience". The former results in generic drivel lacking any sort of depth as they try to incorporate a lot but none of it in-depth, the latter results in a game not everyone will want to play. The former also appears to reach a bigger audience, except that there is only so much room for these types of games and people are getting a bit tired of getting spoon-fed those kinds of generic games by the major publishers.

    Imo this is why the indie scene has become so big recently, they actually make games they like instead of trying to cater to everyone (and as such to no-one, especially not the people that play lots of games, as they are getting the "seen it all before" syndrome when trying the next rehashed version of the same old concept).

    It's not even hardcore vs casual anymore, it's good game vs. bad game.

  2. #2
    I don't see anything wrong with his statements. All he's addressing is the challenge they face as designers; nowhere does he state which side their design philosophy agrees with.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with his statements. All he's addressing is the challenge they face as designers; nowhere does he state which side their design philosophy agrees with.
    It's very clear which side their design philosophy agrees with.

  4. #4
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    It's very clear which side their design philosophy agrees with.
    Clear to us or just to you because that's what this sounds like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Mike Morhaine's definitely been using his body to sell copies of WoW.
    Writer and journalist for Adventures In Poor Taste (http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/)

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Dreadnor's Avatar
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    the features they're adding may appeal to hardcores and casuals alike.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Clear to us or just to you because that's what this sounds like.
    Indeed, as far as I can see they've been trying to cater to both. This philosophy has been working fine as far as I've seen.

    I've always been a HC raider (quit in 5.2 though, prob back for 5.4), and I like the idea of flexible raids. Makes it easy to quickly make a group, and you could even have some fun with weird comps (2 healers 2 tanks 10 DPS or something like that).

    I don't think there can ever be too much content either. You don't need to do everything. Guilds just need to be clear: this is what we expect. Some guilds will want you to do flexible raids, LFR, & normal/heroic every week, others won't care. As long as the expectations are clear you can find the right guild for you.
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2013-06-13 at 12:27 AM.

  7. #7
    I think this is why no MMO with a similar approach has been successful, because that approach simply doesn't work. WoW, is at this point, coasting on inertia from its prior greatness, but even that is waning. You see the principle you're talking about at work in the games industry at large and not just MMO's. Everyone is trying to craft the triple A 10million copy selling mass appeal hit of the decade. The problem is, in doing so they water down the experience to such a degree that it just makes the games bland and one-dimensional. Things like fully voice acted dialogue and amazing 3d graphics just take so much to implement there's barely any thought in gameplay, story, art direction, etc. The emphasis on "selling-points" over actual quality just exacerbates the problem, because its like compare, say Mass Effect 3, versus Baldur's Gate 2: the fact that the game was fully voice acted and 3d actually constrained the writing because every line had to be voice acted and every environment had to be carefully 3d modeled. Ultimately this contributes to the watered down feel of the game because so much attention is paid to every detail the entire game feels sterile. Games that have a little rough around the edges quality feel alive and have a sense of discovery to them. Nothing in Mass Effect 3 was meant to reward you for digging or making one choice over the other. The entire gameplay experience was meant to be experienced to the fullest by everyone the first time around. It lead to you feeling like you were just experiencing a completely on rails movie instead of having an actual interactive element.

    WoW is just one more title that has fallen into this trap.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Indeed, as far as I can see they've been trying to cater to both. This philosophy has been working fine as far as I've seen.
    3.7 million less subs since wotlk, I don't think we could qualify it as "working fine"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    3.7 million less subs since wotlk, I don't think we could qualify it as "working fine"
    Most successful (subscription-based) mmo ever. Most influential mmo ever. 8 year old game with over 8 million subscribers.

    Tell me of a game that's better off ?
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    3.7 million less subs since wotlk, I don't think we could qualify it as "working fine"
    Funny you would use WotLK as a benchmark since that was considered a travesty of casualness after TBC. And TBC was in most ways way more casual than vanilla.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    3.7 million less subs since wotlk, I don't think we could qualify it as "working fine"
    And yet still manages to generate annual revenue on par with a small nation. There are a lot of factors that contributed to the decline in subscriptions, namely, kids eventually grow up and do other things.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Funny you would use WotLK as a benchmark since that was considered a travesty of casualness after TBC. And TBC was in most ways way more casual than vanilla.
    I use WotLK as a benchmark because it had 12 million subscripters. The game was fine until the introduction of LFR, when it became pretty obvious the direction the developers wanted to go. Cataclysm was a let down and LFR pretty much was the final nail in the coffin.

  13. #13
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Closing this since we just had this same thread a few days ago. That thread can be found here:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...n-one-Sentence

    The last post was just a few days ago so it's not even close to being a necro. Feel free to continue to discuss there if so inclined. Thanks
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

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