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  1. #1

    another horridon 25hc thread

    So last 2 weeks we have been trying this one and im quite bored on this already.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cbsgo3aarwe0s30w/
    logs from thursday, we didnt have a full group at start so we took a few socials in just to get the wipes going. What i would like is for you to point out our shortcomings (no need to be polite, as long as its informative).

    Its quite saddening to see me as enhance shammy to be that high on the meters most of the time. And i dont mean dg taken, we had quite a few wipe calls so i went to soak a swipe or a frost ball
    Last edited by zandervont; 2013-05-11 at 09:14 AM.

  2. #2
    The Patient Meqq's Avatar
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    Things I noticed on a quick look:

    - People dying to frozen orbs (Simply can't happen. it's way too easy to avoid)
    - People dying to totems (Same thing here)

    Your warlock is performing terribly for his gear, same story with thexghost (mage).
    Horridon seems to be healing alot from dinomancers


    Couple of things I noticed from a first glance

  3. #3
    I think you have already hit the nail on the head, enh chammy being 2nd on dmg is not good, how many socials did you take? bottom half of your dps really needs to pick it up, also 50% overhealing is a bit much

    could be more but the dps spread screamed out at me
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  4. #4
    Field Marshal Toraah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zandervont View Post
    So last 2 weeks we have been trying this one and im quite bored on this already.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cbsgo3aarwe0s30w/
    logs from thursday, we didnt have a full group at start so we took a few socials in just to get the wipes going. What i would like is for you to point out our shortcomings (no need to be polite, as long as its informative).

    Its quite saddening to see me as enhance shammy to be that high on the meters most of the time.
    Looking at the logs, I see you only run with 1 disc priest. I would recommend two when you are progressing instead of having one go holy. Horridon is THE Atonment boss. The disc in your raid needs to use penance and smite/holy fire alot more. Pop spirit shell, archangel, power infusion (If specced), and inner focus 15-10 sec before every Dire Call.

    Atonment healing should be one of the top spells for disc this fight along with Spirit Shell. Remember that the more debuffs Horridon get's after each gate, Atonment heals will get stronger.
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  5. #5
    Damage across the board seems fairly low except maybe your top 4-5 dps. Everyone should be a bit higher. Every door spawns 3 adds that need to be focused down, 1 jumps down in the middle and then 2 jump down on the sides. Burn the first one asap and then mark one from the double spawn to focus down, then kill the last one.

    People should blow cds on the first door and sit on them until the frost trolls door because the Frozen warlords have much more health than anything else in the encounter Also, 7 healing? Thats not needed. Have your priest use atonement a lot more after the first door. Shield spamming is cool but not the most effective for the fight by a long shot.

    By far your issue seems to be damage by what i can tell on logs. If you gave me more info I could tell more. Are you guys wiping to a specific door consistently? Are your tanks having issues picking up mobs asap?

    On charges make your raiders run to the boss asap so he doesn't move and the raid doesn't have to scramble to avoid the charge and the tank doesn't have to worry about re-positioning him.

    Make sure your raiders are moving out of bad stuff on the ground, everything has an arming time, so no reason to take any damage from those mechanics.

    Lastly assign some people on the last door to kill the flame casters and don't worry about tanks picking those up. Kill one bear then the shaman from that bear and repeat to avoid tons of curses going out at once, make sure to dispel those asap prioritizing tanks/heals and teach the raid to not attack at all if they have the curse still on them.

  6. #6
    Spirit Shell and Atonement are insane on Horridon. Have your holy priest go disc and drop a healer or two.
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  7. #7
    Most problems start on fourth door where people are dropping like flies. Also some stupid wipes we had when too many died on the poison, frost orbs, sand traps..
    Our main tanks, the 2 warriors are quite good on picking the adds up. Unfortunately other one had work and we went with druid tank, who has only been the off-off-tank on Animus this tier.
    Also the monk is our other off-tank but he didnt have a good time on adds.
    We had a bit of trouble concerning whether to tunnel the big add or cleave/aoe the pack.
    Our other priest does prefer holy over disc but i guess he can change to the boring spec as he refers it to.

  8. #8
    Low raid dmg, like above posters said.
    Your rogue for example, looks good on dmg done but if you look closer, his rupture/snd uptimes are bad. And fan of knives is far to high up on his dmg list. It looks good at first if you aoe, but if you consider that ur progressing on a fight where you need to focus fire adds on every door its pretty shit to FoK as a rogue(For progression atleast).
    Sure you can FoK to spread some diseases but he must be spamming it to have it so high up on dmg done. Much better for him to multi dot with rupture and focus fire the big adds at every door. More rupture also = more energy so if he really wants to FoK spam then higher uptime on rupture is still better.
    Its sounds like I think he's shit, thats not it, I just think he's prioratizing wrong considering its progress, if it was farm I would FoK aswell. And I took the rogue as an example because thats the class Im most familiar with. It looks like add dmg in general is the issue, also dieing to bad stuff.

    If I read the logs right on your last try, the Dinomancer healed Horridon for 255mil. Meaning the dinomancers channeled their casts for 12-13s combined. Thats a loong time. If you compare that to ur longest attempt where the dinomancers healed for 137mil, its obvious that your raid can do it, but ur pretty un even between tries. There are so many ranged interupts in your raid so interupting shouldnt be an issue at all.

    Conclusion from me is: Members dieing due to standing in shit, need faster interupts and focus fire the important adds at each door more. Good luck!

  9. #9
    You use 7 healers - which in itself is a huge overkill, first kills were usually done with 5 and nowadays we moved to 6 to make is more comfortable - yet on your best attempt, one of those healers dies from Plague. Spam that dispel? And seeing how it was Holy Pala - use that bubble if you have 8+ stacks? How does this happen?

    Then there's some fourth gate deaths from fireballs. Not much to say here, work on those interrupt. Hell, even CoT can help, giving you a whole extra second to interrupt/Death Grip the add. I'm not quite sure how people manage to die from Frost Orb at this point, where are you tanking those bears? You should be slowly moving toward the first gate, leaving totems (and orbs) behind, not somehow walk into them while avoiding the charge or something. Flamecasters should be quickly killed/interrupted, while you single target the bears.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    You use 7 healers - which in itself is a huge overkill, first kills were usually done with 5 and nowadays we moved to 6 to make is more comfortable - yet on your best attempt, one of those healers dies from Plague. Spam that dispel? And seeing how it was Holy Pala - use that bubble if you have 8+ stacks? How does this happen?

    Then there's some fourth gate deaths from fireballs. Not much to say here, work on those interrupt. Hell, even CoT can help, giving you a whole extra second to interrupt/Death Grip the add. I'm not quite sure how people manage to die from Frost Orb at this point, where are you tanking those bears? You should be slowly moving toward the first gate, leaving totems (and orbs) behind, not somehow walk into them while avoiding the charge or something. Flamecasters should be quickly killed/interrupted, while you single target the bears.
    Just fyi, I died because I got melee'ed by a roaming add, as you can see it hit me twice for around 45k. The disease killed me with an overkill of 1500, and I had previously dispelled another since I knew I could take the hits. Regarding using my Divine Shield, as you can see if you check the log, I had already previously used it!

    I think we just need to go easy on the healers and focus on positioning a lot more.

  11. #11
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    From a healing pov basically what's been said, disc kicks ass at Horridon.
    Our holy priest, who hates disc and is never disc outside Horridon, specs disc for this boss as it's simply too good to pass out on. You don't have to be used to playing disc in order to make it work for Horridon, as you'll either be spamming atonement on boss (yeah, no need to swap targets at all) or Preshelling SS before Dire Calls every 1 minute. Dispelling diseases might be required but part from that its mega simple from a disc pov.

    Positioning is important, as is people moving when they get targeted by the swipe thingiemajiggy. Basically run to where the tank is, or where the bosses tail usually is, in order for rest of the raid to not have to move at all. I'll link our first (i think) kill from weeks ago if it should help with a possible position solution as well as a view from a disc pov. Granted I played like a moron after a pause in playing, but hey hum, proves even further how facepalming disc there is



    We run with 6 healers, 2 of them being disc.
    Pps: Note that the range on double swipe is gg.
    Last edited by Tenaru; 2013-05-11 at 11:55 PM.
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  12. #12
    Damage is low, you're using way too many healers, and that excuse about your death there is really not working out. There's never an excuse to a death like this, dispels were not in order, healing assignments were not in order, healing itself is not in order if this happened. Anyway, no point nitpicking on random deaths -- but if you want to improve, and want your raid to improve, don't solely focus on having a reason or excuse why a death or mistake happen, but rather, think back and figure out what you specifically could have done to avoid this, and after that, what others could have done to avoid this (tanks, other healers, whatever).

    Next: a lot of people say "burn down single target adds". No. This is 25man. You do not make your affliction warlock burn down singletarget, to name a random example (maybe that's why his damage is so horrid, I didn';t go further in the logs though). Make use of your classes strengths - it's the biggest advantage of 25man! Don't let it go to waste. Let multidot classes multidot, else there'll be no end to the adds. Let ele shamans chain, let warriors cleave. But let their main target be whatever is that needs to die first. On Horridon 25HC, what's important is a high overall DPS else you'll just get overrun, people get confused, you wipe and it's GG.

    Raid positioning. Absolutely crucial in any raid but especially 25, and especially horridon. If tanks positiion the boss too close, it becomes a mess. Too far, and it's a mess. If the other tank doesn't move the adds away from the orbs, it's a mess. If everyone stands haphazardly in random locations, it'll be a mess. If charges go unchecked, it'll be a mess. If adds don't get killed after Horridon kills a door, it can very well become another mess. Generally, what wipes groups on this boss is MESS, so, you want to minimize mess. Less mess means less mistakes, less standing in orbs, less random charges, less "fuck me my health is at 1% and I die"-moments as healer. We're all humans, and while standing in crap is unacceptable, if your entire raid is the definition of chaos because nobody is sure what is happening, where they should be standing and why that add is still up, you can hardly blame them for overlooking that orb that is now raping them.

    I know this is very general advice, but I believe it to be sound advice. That said, your dps is really low. Really low. I think I already said this, but it's late, my screen is small, and I feel a bit drunk (though I don't think I drank anything). Low dps is always a cause for a wipe, because higher dps means bosses die faster, and the faster stuff dies the less the chance your raiders will die of something. You will need to ask your raiders to seriously step up their game. Again, encourage the multidotters to multidot. There's really no reason not to, barely in 10man but especially not in 25man. In most cases it will increase their single target too.

    I should probably stop typing, I feel like I'm making less and less sense. Good luck anyway! If this post is gibberish, pretend it didn't happen.

  13. #13
    Listen Cirque, I was called out, I replied. That simple. Don't give me that patrionizing bullcrap.

    Also, I think we are aware that we wipe due to lack of tactics and practice, why do you think any guild wipes? Yes that's right, because healing isn't assigned properly, dispelling isn't assigned etc etc.

    Next time just start your post from "Next: a lot of people say [....]"

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Hyperia's Avatar
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    As someone stated, your dps is soo much lower than whats expected for a kill, probably why people start dying on the 3rd gate. The log you linked showed a warlock doing 118k dps.
    The warlocks in my guild this week alone all pulled around 295k-320k with our top dps doing nearly 370k. Gear is a factor but they shouldn't be doing double your guilds dps.

    Your Guilds BEST ATTEMPT DPS: 2,615,379.4 - before the wipe

    My Guilds DPS: 5,261,611.6

    Wipes are a factor to stable dps, but its still a HUGE gap across the board

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Felic View Post
    Listen Cirque, I was called out, I replied. That simple. Don't give me that patrionizing bullcrap.

    Also, I think we are aware that we wipe due to lack of tactics and practice, why do you think any guild wipes? Yes that's right, because healing isn't assigned properly, dispelling isn't assigned etc etc.

    Next time just start your post from "Next: a lot of people say [....]"
    Patronizing? Where am I patronizing? You come here, you look for advice. I point out how you can improve. See, this is typical of constant wiping. There's NOTHING wrong with making a mistake. The game would be boring without it, would be boring without wipes. Therefore there is no need for you to explain to us what happened, especially not in the manner in which you did it ("fyi"...?). You are wiping and you want to know why. I tell you the best way to stop your wiping is to not have some elaborate way to excuse why you died, but to LEARN from it and improve your raid as a whole with it. The majority of players don't, the majority of guilds don't do this, they just engage the fight again and again and hope it doesn't happen again. Your death happened to be an excellent example of why you're wiping. And in general, we cannot GIVE you anything more than has been told: Sort your raid out. It's a mess. That's your problem. You have too many healers who seem to not know what to do or how to do it (healer issue? RL issue? Your call), too little dps, and people stand in crap. What else can I give you? Sort that shit out and it's a dead boss. The end.

    If you don't want to hear what's wrong, don't post. You claim you already know all I posted, that damage is bad, that healing and dispelling is not properly being handled. So why exactly are you here? What else can we possibly offer you? You have the solution in your hands. Horridon is not a hard fight. Sort out the random mistakes, sort out your setup, sort out your dps, target prio's and cleave and the boss will keel over. That's all there is to it. You can refer to the 200 other threads too. I wanted to go through your logs now that I have some clarity of mind, but I think I'll be more appreciated in other threads, so you can just figure it out yourself, since clearly you are on top of your game and I'm only being patronizing.

    Good luck, and next time, refrain from rude posts. It really makes you look ungrateful and stupid when I spend time in an attempt to help your raid out.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-05-12 at 03:43 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    and that excuse about your death there is really not working out. There's never an excuse to a death like this, dispels were not in order, healing assignments were not in order, healing itself is not in order if this happened.
    Lol, 'healing assignments' for the least intensive healing fight of the tier.

  17. #17
    Cirque where did I ask for you advice? I know very well why we are wiping, because we're a social guild that bothers more about having a good atmosphere instead of focusing on content.

    What I did want to know from this thread, was how other guilds did it. Not some lame ass stereotypical comment from someone who I have no idea who is. I know what it is like raiding in a top PvE guild, I've done my fair share of that. I have Realms first titles too, and raced for worlds firsts, so don't start the "most guilds do this xx" I know all about it. The simply truth is I am getting too old, too bored and don't have the time for that anymore. All I want now is to play the game with the people I enjoy playing it with. I was called out, and I told him what happend - if he wants to go into log details, he should check it properly before coming up with some smartass comment about how I shouldn't have had 8 stacks (no shit I shouldn't).

    So spare me with your mongo comments, and give us something constructive like the rest of the people here are, such as how to deal with the fight.

    In return I'll do you a favour, link some of your logs and I'll try to point out all the not needed deaths you might have on your wipes, and tell you its due to you handling the fight wrong.

    Cheers

  18. #18
    Was just reading this for tips on horridon hc as well.
    Felic, I have to say you are acting like a child with a tantrum who doenst like to be told off.
    Your guild came to these forums for advice, he was giving it. he mentioned your death as an example, get over it...

  19. #19
    Oi Crowz85, what about if people actually gave some fucking advice then?

    I don't give a rats ass about people dying to void zones, we can figure that out ourselves as we get practice. What would be REALLY HELPFUL would be to do like some of the above, talk about how your raid splits DPS, where you tank the bears, how you deal with adds and such. It's the same shit over again, people first have to point out how amazing they are, and then they start to tell you that dying is where you fail. No shit sherlock

    Get it? It's not like when we see our logs and we have Mage1 doing 120 dps and Mage2 doing 75 dps that we can't see something is wrong.

    Peace

  20. #20
    Felic is furious gladiator, leave him be!

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