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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    NO their was no middle ground in mists. Mists is not really aimed at casuals. At all. Man I'm getting tired arguing this. So many of you to educate so little time.
    Aiming it at "casuals" would mean they aren't meeting the middle ground. That means focusing purely on a casual playerbase and ignoring another. Middle ground is trying to satisfy hardcore AND casual players, and the introduction of LFR properly (DS was a test) seems pretty damn casual friendly to me, along with scenarios. They also bought in some fantastic raids with genuinely difficult hard modes, and many top tier guilds agree that it is the best raiding there has been in a long time. There is also a wealth of other options besides levelling alts as well (Pet Battles, old raids for new pets/transmog gear etc).
    Don't know about you, but that seems very much as if they are aiming for the middle ground.

    There is nothing to "educate here", sorry to break it to you, but your flat out wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The only casual friendly thing in MoP is LFR. Long grinds, lack of catch up dungeons, step up in raid difficulty, valor more difficult to cap, you cant spend valor without rgrinding reputations, etc, everything is very casual unfriendly.
    Please explain where "casual playing" is solely tied exclusively to raids? There is a wealth of options and variety in WOW right now, more so than ever before, if people would stop being so blinkered, they would realise this.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I still think the Theme is the reason why people are leaving.
    Tons of people dislike Mists of Pandaria on first sight.

    Let's hope the subs will ever go up again. WoW doesn't deserve to 'die' this way.
    And I know "tons" of people, what ever the fuck that means, of people that have had a giant boner for pandaren since they were first introduced in WC and couldn't wait for them to be added into WoW. The Asian theme was the gravy on top of that panda cake.

    The old god lore was actually more interesting in this expansion than it was with Deathwing. How stupid is that?
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  3. #203
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Aiming it at "casuals" would mean they aren't meeting the middle ground. That means focusing purely on a casual playerbase and ignoring another. Middle ground is trying to satisfy hardcore AND casual players, and the introduction of LFR properly (DS was a test) seems pretty damn casual friendly to me, along with scenarios. They also bought in some fantastic raids with genuinely difficult hard modes, and many top tier guilds agree that it is the best raiding there has been in a long time. There is also a wealth of other options besides levelling alts as well (Pet Battles, old raids for new pets/transmog gear etc).
    Don't know about you, but that seems very much as if they are aiming for the middle ground.

    There is nothing to "educate here", sorry to break it to you, but your flat out wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 07:42 PM ----------



    Please explain where "casual playing" is solely tied exclusively to raids? There is a wealth of options and variety in WOW right now, more so than ever before, if people would stop being so blinkered, they would realise this.

    Options are nice. None of those options reward casual players in either gear or ego inflation (the real psychological reward on an mmo) in any reasonable time frame. They are all just massive grinds or hideously unsatisfying for casual players (lfr).
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #204
    Brewmaster catbeef's Avatar
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    it isn't so much the content that is making this expansion a bad experience, but the complete lack of people to play with due to the server being a wasteland, and the highest ranking guild has 1/13 H.

    someone save turalyon

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Options are nice. None of those options reward casual players in either gear or ego inflation (the real psychological reward on an mmo) in any reasonable time frame. They are all just massive grinds or hideously unsatisfying for casual players (lfr).
    Umm..but they do?
    -CM modes award unique gear sets (casual doesn't mean a bad player, just less time, CMs are perfect for this)
    - Scenarios award gear that can help you get into the first steps of raids, along with bonus reputation, and VP to purchase other gear with. Along with storylines, achievements.
    - Pet Battles award achievements, unique pets if you do the challenge ones daily, and are a nice distraction, also awarding bonus tokens for more loot in LFR/raids.
    - Transmogrification (and doing older raids for it) allows more customisation for your character.

    As I said, just because the "rewards" aren't linked exclusively to raids, doesn't mean there aren't any. ALso, where again is it written that a casual plauer MUST have content linked exclusively to raiding? That's a blinkered viewpoint.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    As long as we stay on Azeroth everything is fine. When we invade another legion stronghold planet I will break Metzen's face for raping Warcraft.
    My opinion is exactly the other way around. If we get to stay on Azeroth I'll be disappointed.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbeef View Post
    it isn't so much the content that is making this expansion a bad experience, but the complete lack of people to play with due to the server being a wasteland, and the highest ranking guild has 1/13 H.

    someone save turalyon
    On your server you mean then? Tons of guild have reached 13/13HC now:P
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  8. #208
    The team is bigger than ever, Blizzard is getting very desperate with the subs, we still have a badass naga/demon theme waiting for us.

    Must be quite hard for the next expansion to not be awesome. Blizzard surely can't afford another bad expansion again

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    It's going to be hard to get people enthousiastic about the next expansion... unless they manage to bring something very new to the table.

    People aren't going to swallow the following things anymore:
    - Days of quest-grinding again to get to max level
    - End-game consisting out of only PvP (BGs / Arenas) or Raiddungeons

    People are growing very bored with that limited scope of endgame progression...
    Disagree. Burning legion with maybe a new demon hunter class or 4th specs for existing classes would make many return. If they market it as a burning crusade 2.0 that alone would intrigue any past player.

    IMO they need to pull out more wc3 content/characters and make Kil'jaden the main villain.

  10. #210
    Until Blizzard fixes the issues with Heirlooms, forces players to interact with one another again, and gets out of the mentality of WoW being able to played multi player or single player, WoW will continue to decline. They also need to remove the badge system they put into the game to create a more epic end game feel. Make it so that badges only give you gear to take you to Raid A. However, raids B, C, and so forth require you to clear the previous raids prior in order to advance to them.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Umm..but they do?
    -CM modes award unique gear sets (casual doesn't mean a bad player, just less time, CMs are perfect for this)
    - Scenarios award gear that can help you get into the first steps of raids, along with bonus reputation, and VP to purchase other gear with. Along with storylines, achievements.
    - Pet Battles award achievements, unique pets if you do the challenge ones daily, and are a nice distraction, also awarding bonus tokens for more loot in LFR/raids.
    - Transmogrification (and doing older raids for it) allows more customisation for your character.

    As I said, just because the "rewards" aren't linked exclusively to raids, doesn't mean there aren't any. ALso, where again is it written that a casual plauer MUST have content linked exclusively to raiding? That's a blinkered viewpoint.
    -CMS require groups of 5 to complete and can't be qued for. Casuals don't necessary have groups of 5's that are that good.
    -Scenarios award crap. Period. Especially relative to what they got out of dungeons in wotlk and nic ata
    - Pet battles award crap
    - Xmog isn't a reward in itself, it's just character customization.

    The real rewards, the real draw that people get from the game is character growth and development. The current game doesn't offer casual players enough of that. The developers are TRYING to get casual players off that fix but guess what? it's not working because their not fucking stupid. They spend the entire lvling experience progressing their characters, hit lvl 90 and want to continue doing that and then are told they aren't even good enough for a normal raid, here's some dog crap called lfr. Your not even good enough for normal.

    Casuals aren't engaged because the game isn't engaging them and it isn't honestly designed to. It's isn't giving them any value in terms of either gear for their time and ultimately ego inflation for their time. The game doesn't make them feel awesome anymore to them because the aren't getting any satisfaction. The developers know they can't keep up the wheel though, addictive as it is and frankly I don't think they want to keep casual players on that wheel. They want to get them off it so they can save it for the 1% to keep their egos as inflated as possible. Well casuals aren't idiots like I said. They walked away and said no thanks to being insulted.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-12 at 08:10 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    What you wrote there is a lie. Please don't lie.
    its true read the whole announcement and not the only 1 part about how meny sub was lost

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by catbeef View Post
    it isn't so much the content that is making this expansion a bad experience, but the complete lack of people to play with due to the server being a wasteland, and the highest ranking guild has 1/13 H.

    someone save turalyon
    US or EU, because US is actually a decent server with Supermassive at world 74th and 20 guilds at 1/13 HM or above

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    On your server you mean then? Tons of guild have reached 13/13HC now:P
    In NA/EU, a total of 47 guilds are 13/13HC right now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nWoMATT125 View Post
    its true read the whole announcement and not the only 1 part about how meny sub was lost
    No, you are wrong. They never said 1.3 M were lost in China. They said the MAJORITY of the 1.3M net loss was in Asia/China.
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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    -CMS require groups of 5 to complete and can't be qued for. Casuals don't necessary have groups of 5's that are that good.
    -Scenarios award crap. Period. Especially relative to what they got out of dungeons in wotlk and nic ata
    - Pet battles award crap
    - Xmog isn't a reward in itself, it's just character customization.

    The real rewards, the real draw that people get from the game is character growth and development. The current game doesn't offer casual players enough of that. The developers are TRYING to get casual players off that fix but guess what? it's not working because their not fucking stupid. They spend the entire lvling experience progressing their characters, hit lvl 90 and want to continue doing that and then are told they aren't even good enough for a normal raid, here's some dog crap called lfr. Your not even good enough for normal.

    Casuals aren't engaged because the game isn't engaging them and it isn't honestly designed to. It's isn't giving them any value in terms of either gear for their time and ultimately ego inflation for their time. The game doesn't make them feel awesome anymore to them because the aren't getting any satisfaction. The developers know they can't keep up the wheel though, addictive as it is and frankly I don't think they want to keep casual players on that wheel. They want to get them off it so they can save it for the 1% to keep their egos as inflated as possible. Well casuals aren't idiots like I said. They walked away and said no thanks to being insulted.
    You really are drawing a lot of conclusions here, from not much evidence. We don't know *why* people have quit playing WoW, only Blizzard does, and even then, it's usually conjecture (unless they are nice enough to fill out a survey).
    Your arguments of the rewards being "crap" are again, self-originated, what is "crap" to one person, is actually delightful to another, just because you may not enjoy a pet battle reward or a pet etc, doesn't mean others do not.
    True about the CMs, but with all honesty, it isn't hat hard to use various communication tools to find a group to do so, or are you drawing conclusions that casual players are anti-social loners without a guild?
    Your placing a lot of personal feeling into what you feel the game *should* be, and trying to apply it to a larger playerbase, then claiming it as fact, which accurate. Your argument also falls flat when Original WoW, BC, and then Wrath had progressively higher sub numbers, with them only really declining sharply with Cata launch. However, I distinctly remember BC and original WoW being incredibly UN-friendly for the "casual" player, with limited options and things on offer, yet it was still successful?

    As it stands, as I said before, there is a wealth of options now, more than ever, and plenty of things to do. Your just assuming the whole purpose of WoW is raiding, and ego, which isn't the case for many players at all.
    I am not claiming in any way shape or form to know what the "casual" player wants, all I am saying, is that there is a wealth of engaging options now, and they do have rewards for them. To claim otherwise, is just factually incorrect.
    Last edited by Howlrunner; 2013-05-12 at 08:42 PM.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    You really are drawing a lot of conclusions here, from not much evidence. We don't know *why* people have quit playing WoW, only Blizzard does, and even then, it's usually conjecture (unless they are nice enough to fill out a survey).
    Your arguments of the rewards being "crap" are again, self-originated, what is "crap" to one person, is actually delightful to another, just because you may not enjoy a pet battle reward or a pet etc, doesn't mean others do not.
    True about the CMs, but with all honesty, it isn't hat hard to use various communication tools to find a group to do so, or are you drawing conclusions that casual players are anti-social loners without a guild?
    Your placing a lot of personal feeling into what you feel the game *should* be, and trying to apply it to a larger playerbase, then claiming it as fact, which accurate. Your argument also falls flat when Original WoW, BC, and then Wrath had progressively higher sub numbers, with them only really declining sharply with Cata launch. However, I distinctly remember BC and original WoW being incredibly UN-friendly for the "casual" player, with limited options and things on offer, yet it was still successful?

    As it stands, as I said before, there is a wealth of options now, more than ever, and plenty of things to do. Your just assuming the whole purpose of WoW is raiding, and ego, which isn't the case for many players at all.
    Actually we do know why people have quit playing. They said casuals aren't engaged. Well if the content they have created isn't engaging casuals BUT others like hardcores are being engaged we should ask ourselves what is it about the hardcore content that is engaging those players? A wealth of options is meaningless if they don't actually engage the player and provide him with enough reward. Ego is the central reward value in this game. People don't play it because it's like working at McDonalds (which dailies feel very much like doing) they play it be a hero and forget about their day at work and basically escape.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #217
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually we do know why people have quit playing. They said casuals aren't engaged. Well if the content they have created isn't engaging casuals BUT others like hardcores are being engaged we should ask ourselves what is it about the hardcore content that is engaging those players? A wealth of options is meaningless if they don't actually engage the player and provide him with enough reward. Ego is the central reward value in this game. People don't play it because it's like working at McDonalds (which dailies feel very much like doing) they play it be a hero and forget about their day at work and basically escape.
    Casuals don't like to do anything, They loved Cataclysm.
    Just sitting around in SW/Org doing nothing, while nowadays you gotta move your ars if you wanne get something x)
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  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually we do know why people have quit playing. They said casuals aren't engaged. Well if the content they have created isn't engaging casuals BUT others like hardcores are being engaged we should ask ourselves what is it about the hardcore content that is engaging those players? A wealth of options is meaningless if they don't actually engage the player and provide him with enough reward. Ego is the central reward value in this game. People don't play it because it's like working at McDonalds (which dailies feel very much like doing) they play it be a hero and forget about their day at work and basically escape.
    Umm...we don't know. That's the point i am getting. Your assuming, and drawing it as a fact. No one knows the reasons why people have stopped playing, and to suggest that for example, the drop in 1.3 mil subs is down to one thing is ludicrous. The reasons will be as varied as you can imagine, and whilst some may feel "unengaged" others might be incredibly happy with the product but just felt it was time to move on. The game is 8 years old, of course there will be drop off.

    Your again drawing another conclusion that the whole reason to *play* this game is down to ego and reward, which again, is assuming a lot. Many people might play because they like the lore, the game itself, because their friends play, because its the only MMO game that works on their PC, the reasons are varied and huge. Your just trying to pigeon hole it into your own viewpoint, which I am sorry, is completely wrong.

    Point being, the only people that may have a clue about why people leaving is BLizzard and Blizzard alone, through exit surveys and observing of trends through data. We do not have that, so whilst we can make (semi) educated guesses, everything we have is speculation and conjecture, to claim otherwise is ludicrous.

  19. #219
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Casuals don't like to do anything, They loved Cataclysm.
    Just sitting around in SW/Org doing nothing, while nowadays you gotta move your ars if you wanne get something x)
    Cataclysm as not doing nothing. Neither was wotlk. They spent an hour or two here or there when they could and got a piece of gear or two in that time when they could. They weren't asked to "move their ars" to get somethign which I take to mean run out and do dailies which are tedious, unrewarding, unfulfiling, solo activities. You know that's another thing to this whole obsession the developers have with being out in the world is so fucking stupid. It's not actually being out in the world cause it's immersive, which it still isn't, it's just be inconvenienced to get out there for little to no gain. The developers constantly chasing fucking ghosts. Give it up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 08:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Umm...we don't know. That's the point i am getting. Your assuming, and drawing it as a fact. No one knows the reasons why people have stopped playing, and to suggest that for example, the drop in 1.3 mil subs is down to one thing is ludicrous. The reasons will be as varied as you can imagine, and whilst some may feel "unengaged" others might be incredibly happy with the product but just felt it was time to move on. The game is 8 years old, of course there will be drop off.

    Your again drawing another conclusion that the whole reason to *play* this game is down to ego and reward, which again, is assuming a lot. Many people might play because they like the lore, the game itself, because their friends play, because its the only MMO game that works on their PC, the reasons are varied and huge. Your just trying to pigeon hole it into your own viewpoint, which I am sorry, is completely wrong.

    Point being, the only people that may have a clue about why people leaving is BLizzard and Blizzard alone, through exit surveys and observing of trends through data. We do not have that, so whilst we can make (semi) educated guesses, everything we have is speculation and conjecture, to claim otherwise is ludicrous.
    Theirs no assumption. Casuals are not engaged. The game is not designed to engage them. If you take the rewards that keep hardcores engaged and apply them to a setting appropriate for casuals they will be engaged to.

    Their is no assumption to any of this. It's all right there if you actually read and understand how game psychology works. The reason anyone plays a game is ultimately escapism.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    Theirs no assumption. Casuals are not engaged. The game is not designed to engage them. If you take the rewards that keep hardcores engaged and apply them to a setting appropriate for casuals they will be engaged to.

    Their is no assumption to any of this. It's all right there if you actually read and understand how game psychology works. The reason anyone plays a game is ultimately escapism.
    Everything in your entire post IS assumption and pure speculation. I do understand game psychology, and your approaching WoW as if it were an easily studied single player game. It isn't. The reasons people play are as varied as there are people, to assume otherwise is lunacy. Everything you are discussing is personal viewpoint and conjecture, and your attempting to utilise it to explain an entire demograph. If it were as easy as you claim, then Blizzs subs would have kept on rising year after year.

    Sorry but no point in further discourse, yoru far too blinkered and just repeating the same stuff over and over, despite all evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by Howlrunner; 2013-05-12 at 09:11 PM.

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