Aethas may not be so innocent after all (SPOILER)

[Bullettime]

Personally, the only way they could salvage this situation would be if Aethas knew what was going on with the Bell and was planning a sting operation of some sort when Jaina blew her top. Personal guilt over not acting sooner (resulting the the events in Dalaran) would make sense. Especially if he was planning on using it as maneuver for power/presige ("I know who the Horde loyalists are! I can purge them if you give the word.") since I figure he would know about the plans to break with the Horde.

Leaning towards this. When breaking ties from a faction like the Horde, there has to be a time and place. Aethas could have easily been waiting for his to make a power play but Jaina went ballistic and began the Purge before he was able to. It was clear through the Sha possession that Aethas has no loyalties to the Horde or Garrosh.

[delus]

This is not new new, but still if he really is responsible, they made a mess with his characterization, since he was the most anti horde and more Alliance aligned type, having him turning out to be a traitor would be quite foolish, but we will see what blizzard does in the end.

Maybe he was so good at pretending that he fooled you, the player. Ever consider that possibility? That he's so convincing a character that he could exploit your trusting nature.

[Deleted]

Personally, the only way they could salvage this situation would be if Aethas knew what was going on with the Bell and was planning a sting operation of some sort when Jaina blew her top. Personal guilt over not acting sooner (resulting the the events in Dalaran) would make sense. Especially if he was planning on using it as maneuver for power/presige ("I know who the Horde loyalists are! I can purge them if you give the word.") since I figure he would know about the plans to break with the Horde.

Then he should have reacted different when Jaina confronted him. Be more reasonable, try to calm her down, comply with her. He was making it worse.

[Darmalus]

Maybe he was so good at pretending that he fooled you, the player. Ever consider that possibility? That he's so convincing a character that he could exploit your trusting nature.

Would you say the same thing if Varian suddenly pulled off his mask and was revealed to be an orc spy the entire time? There is a balance to be struck between Blizzard not revealing their hand too early and just making random inconsistent crap. Aethas being a Garrosh loyalist would fall into the random inconsistent crap category.

[Bullettime]

Would you say the same thing if Varian suddenly pulled off his mask and was revealed to be an orc spy the entire time? There is a balance to be struck between Blizzard not revealing their hand too early and just making random inconsistent crap. Aethas being a Garrosh loyalist would fall into the random inconsistent crap category.

Yup. Sometimes twists are unneeded and really mess with the story in a bad way. Aethas, under the influence of the Sha, even admitted that he wanted the Elves to leave the Horde all together. If you're under the control of the Sha, your true feelings manifest. There's no possible way they can turn Aethas into a Horde loyalist or him to change his position without falling under "bad writing" as it would be an illogical twist just for the sake of being a twist.

[Golden Yak]

Yeah, this isn't that complicated - he's complicit. And he'll probably wind up being a boss or involved in a boss encounter come Siege of Orgrimmar. Having a fight with blood golems again would be boring, so hopefully they'll be souped up or otherwise modified in some way.

[delus]

Would you say the same thing if Varian suddenly pulled off his mask and was revealed to be an orc spy the entire time? There is a balance to be struck between Blizzard not revealing their hand too early and just making random inconsistent crap. Aethas being a Garrosh loyalist would fall into the random inconsistent crap category.

That's a very exaggerated example. One thing that annoys me is that Aethas says he's innocent and like chumps everyone takes the word of the guy as concrete evidence. Guess what? People can lie.

[Bullettime]

That's a very exaggerated example. One thing that annoys me is that Aethas says he's innocent and like chumps everyone takes the word of the guy as concrete evidence. Guess what? People can lie.

He's definitely guilty of knowing about the theft of the Divine Bell and failing to properly police his people.

But he was temporarily possessed by the Sha which draws out the victims repressed emotions and makes them visible to all. Whether it be doubt, anger, fear, etc. If he was possessed and stated that he hates the Horde and wants the Blood Elves to leave it, then that's his thoughts and feelings. Him doing a 180 and being a Garrosh loyalist is just bad writing.

It's likely that Aethas knew what was going on and was going to use the information as a power play, but Jaina traced the theft and went ballistic before he was able to. Something like "hey Jaina, I know the names of the Horde loyalists and who stole the Divine Bell. I'll give you the names and let you have your way if you help to get us out of the Horde."

[DemoBytom]

Aethas Sunweaver= (K)ae(l)thas Sun(strider)weaver

Go figure..Dalaran mearly a setback!

As crazy as it sounds and even though that'd bring too much "mearly a setback" jokes.. That'd explain why he wears this mask all the time and could be an interesting plot twist.. not happening though :P

[delus]

He's definitely guilty of knowing about the theft of the Divine Bell and failing to properly police his people.

But he was temporarily possessed by the Sha which draws out the victims repressed emotions and makes them visible to all. Whether it be doubt, anger, fear, etc. If he was possessed and stated that he hates the Horde and wants the Blood Elves to leave it, then that's his thoughts and feelings. Him doing a 180 and being a Garrosh loyalist is just bad writing.

It's likely that Aethas knew what was going on and was going to use the information as a power play, but Jaina traced the theft and went ballistic before he was able to. Something like "hey Jaina, I know the names of the Horde loyalists and who stole the Divine Bell, I'll give you the names and let you have your way if you help to get us out of the Horde."

We don't really know that it necessarily has to bring out any bit of the truth besides the emotions they are associated with, the example being blind anger. MAybe he was in control of what he was saying but doing it in an angry fashion? He might as well be attacking Rommath and screaming "I AM A BANANNA!" It is also possible that the sha sensed his intentions and decided to mislead us.

[Bullettime]

We don't really know that it necessarily has to bring out any bit of the truth besides the emotions they are associated with, the example being blind anger. MAybe he was in control of what he was saying but doing it in an angry fashion? He might as well be attacking Rommath and screaming "I AM A BANANNA!" It is also possible that the sha sensed his intentions and decided to mislead us.

Every time we've seen the Sha possess anyone, they bring out their repressed emotions and feelings of that type. That's what makes the Sha scary, the fact that all they do is bring their victims actual thoughts and emotions to light. They simply push them more in the direction they were already going (See Suna Silentstrike, Shek'zeer, Rell Nightwind, etc.)

If Aethas said he wanted out of the Horde, then that's what he wants.

[Thimagryn]

If they wanted to segue into the next expansion, they could make Aethas be manipulated or replaced by a Dreadlord. The idea would be that by inciting war between the factions, they will both be too weak to stand against the oncoming invasion.

It would make the story very poorly written in retrospect. When you look back at the overall story of Pandaria, you'll see that all the problems stem from 'Unseen force manipulating mortals' instead of meaningful conflict between races. People are hating on the Old Gods enough already for putting their fingers in the pudding.

[delus]

None of those people had anything to hide. We simply don't know.

[Bullettime]

None of those people had anything to hide. We simply don't know.

The Sha don't manipulate in the same way as the Old Gods, despite being a creation of Y'shaarj. They draw on the emotions and thoughts of their victims and push them to be completely controlled by those emotions. They aren't like Yogg-Saron who will actually twist someone's thoughts and use them as a puppet while driving them insane. The Sha amplify existing emotions. They aren't going to take someone's body then use them to lie and manipulate events like Yogg would. They haven't done that for any other possession, from random Pandaren to quest NPCs to bosses to Horde and Alliance soldiers.

I fail to see how or why Blizzard would change this behavior all of a sudden when we've seen hundreds of people get possessed and all have the same exact thing happen.

[delus]

There is a difference between hiding ones emotions and controlling what one says. Feel free to blame it on bad writing though.

[Bullettime]

The Sha don't hide emotions though. They bring existing ones out to an extreme and dangerous level. That's how they've been written and what they've been doing for the entirety of the expansion. It's their thing and what makes them different and frightening as a villainous force.

The Sha hiding emotions would require an entire rewrite of the Sha, would make everything the Sha were written as to have to be retconned, and make everything they were doing to be entirely pointless.

[delus]

I was referring to the posessed individual hiding his emotions, not the sha. Aethas was clearly not able to hide how he felt. He is quite clearly angry when he attacks Rommath but what if he focused his mind on false thoughts and ended up only saying them in an angry way?

[Spichora]

If Aethas is to not innocent and he have plotted all this for the sake of Garrosh and "his people", then I suspect that Lor'themar knew about his actions. Lets follow facts shall we ?

First of all Thalen Songweaver betrayed Kirin Tor from within and he was representative from Sunreavers and close person to Aethas. First of all Aethas was one of the most active and first persons to offer council of six to interfere in War of Theremore and help Jaina Proudmoore. That was strange because there were lots of Blood Elves there why would he want to kill his brethren if he had not bigger plan. He was first of all Horde he would close eyes and just let Kirin Tor slaughter his people, just because he was part of Dalaraan and he should remain Neutral. I say he had Reason. To strengthen my argument I will add that it is very strange how Thalen volunteered to go in Theremore. He was sure that Kirin Tor would join the Fray. If he hadnt weakened defensive spells in Theremore casualties would be least in the city. I say Thalen knew that Aethas would do all the job in Council of Six and then it was his turn to weaken the forces of Teremore. Every member was surprised when Aethas was first person to tell Council to join the fray.

Then second treachery of Sunreavers was that someone opened Portal to Darnassus. If this guy was someone from Garroshs people how Lor'themar claims then how the stolen Bell appeared in Silvermoon city after stealing it? It was Aethas who ordered "that guy" to open Portal and Lor'themar was aware about it I guess. Or he later found about it and decided not to betray his Lieutenant and cover him. Because when we free Aethas from Dalaraan and some Sunreavers we see Bell in the city that means that Sunreavers took Bell in city after stealing it.

Aethas had reason to betray Dalaraan. If his plan was complete Success he would have killed Jaina, Rhonin and Vareesa. End the High elf problem in Dalaraan and their hate towards Blood elves, he would have killed ruler of Dalaraan and later they would have found that his heir Jaina was dead too so who would be new Leader of Dalaraan? Why not Aethas? He could have fought (politically) for the position and was one of the best candidates as others had their duties in other places or were old. He was perfect matching candidate for Dalaraan or ... He could use those tones of Sunreavers in the city. They could rebel in the city enslave Kirin Tor and use Dalaraan for Horde in Battle and take HUGE advantage.

[Bullettime]

I was referring to the posessed individual hiding his emotions, not the sha. Aethas was clearly not able to hide how he felt. He is quite clearly angry when he attacks Rommath but what if he focused his mind on false thoughts and ended up only saying them in an angry way?

That's the point. When the Sha possess an individual, they do what I mentioned. That's how they work. They dominate the possessed individual and make them a slave to their own emotions and can't control them. How they feel comes out. A victim can't just think happy thoughts and control what the Sha makes them say.

You're asking for an entire rewrite of how the Sha operate and why Sha possession is supposed to be frightening. They dominate the victim's mind entirely like the Mindbenders possessed bodies in Vashj'ir. Except the victim doesn't act out or say anything that they didn't already feel. They take emotions and amplify them ten fold.

If Aethas was possessed by the Sha and made statements, then those statements and actions and anything else are straight from his own heart. That's how the Sha operate and what happens to victims.

[delus]

That's the point. When the Sha possess an individual, they do what I mentioned. That's how they work. They dominate the possessed individual and make them a slave to their own emotions and can't control them. How they feel comes out. A victim can't just think happy thoughts and control what the Sha makes them say.

You're asking for an entire rewrite of how the Sha operate and why Sha possession is supposed to be frightening. They dominate the victim's mind like the Mindbenders possessed bodies in Vashj'ir.

It isn't an entire rewrite because it is only speculation on your behalf that a person cannot lie under sha posession.