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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Snakehead's Avatar
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    If raids only dropped vanity gear

    What if blizzard broke the hamster wheel and decided no more massive gear upgrades for new content. You kill the boss for the fun of killing the boss and the gear that drops was mostly for looks only with barely any stats. Would you accept that world of Warcraft?

  2. #2
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldschoolwow View Post
    What if blizzard broke the hamster wheel and decided no more massive gear upgrades for new content. You kill the boss for the fun of killing the boss and the gear that drops was mostly for looks only with barely any stats. Would you accept that world of Warcraft?
    MMOs are designed around the idea of character progression. In end-game, that means gear.

    Aside from that, it would make raid tuning across multiple tiers difficult, and it would also negate the soft time "nerf" of bossses as the raid gears up.

    I don't see any positives to such a system and a lot of negatives.
    Last edited by Tziva; 2013-05-12 at 02:18 AM.
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  3. #3
    The main reason I don't think this would work is that most of the armor models are pretty horrible nowadays. There are some good ones, certainly, but a lot of the time people transmog their new tier gear to older content as soon as they get it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    MMOCs are designed around the idea of character progression. In end-game, that means gear.

    Aside from that, it would make raid tuning across multiple tiers difficult, and it would also negate the soft time "nerf" of bossses as the raid gears up.

    I don't see any positives to such a system and a lot of negatives.
    I don't understand what you mean? If stats never changed, wouldn't it be MUCH easier to balance the bosses since every new raid would use roughly the same HP/damage/etc.?

    Not that I think such a system would work (GW2 is a prime example here) but still, I don't see how it would make balancing harder.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Snakehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    MMOCs are designed around the idea of character progression. In end-game, that means gear.

    Aside from that, it would make raid tuning across multiple tiers difficult, and it would also negate the soft time "nerf" of bossses as the raid gears up.

    I don't see any positives to such a system and a lot of negatives.
    Well the gear would still be there it just wouldn't matter as much. Also defeating bosses wouldn't be a question of "gear gating" but a matter of skill and coordination only.

  6. #6
    Guild Wars 2 dungeons really only give vanity gear (since all level 80 exotics of the same slot/type have the same stats) and that didn't work out for them at all. Game is dead already and it's ridiculously hard to get dungeon runs that aren't Fractals.

    Gear needs to offer progression imo.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Maconi View Post
    I don't understand what you mean? If stats never changed, wouldn't it be MUCH easier to balance the bosses since every new raid would use roughly the same HP/damage/etc.?

    Not that I think such a system would work (GW2 is a prime example here) but still, I don't see how it would make balancing harder.
    Yeah ..... cause they would have to be exact as hard as the previous bosses in order to be able to be downable mathematically. Thats logical dont you think? And where is the fun in that. We need some kind of progression. In wow it is much revolved around gear upgrades and there for progressing the char itself.

  8. #8
    Legendary! The Glitch's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind that at all, but I'm not sure how well it would work from a boss/next tier view. Not to mention a big draw for folks playing is all about progressing your character and them getting stronger and more powerful too. How would they provide that if our gear didn't have stats.

    Wouldn't mind scenarios offering transmog gear as rewards, could be fun.

  9. #9
    If raids had only vanity gear, the only thing that would differentiate the tiers from each other would be the amount of mechanics present since they would drop vanity gear which means that all tiers would be possible with a fixed ilvl.
    If more mechanics get introduced the swarm of not-so-good players will go "raids are too hard, nerf them now to my level!", so basically your idea of raids with vanity gear only as drops won't really work, another negative would probably be none giving a shit since the reward is only cosmetic items.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldschoolwow View Post
    Well the gear would still be there it just wouldn't matter as much. Also defeating bosses wouldn't be a question of "gear gating" but a matter of skill and coordination only.
    "Skill" in RPG was by big part in stats and strategy. Without ever-changing stats, what kind of skill do you mean? Arcade skill? It should have gone from WoW tbh, as it is of different genre.

    And as it is RPGs, character growth should be growth in combat capabilities, not cosmetical. And if this growth won't be from raids, it should be from somewhere else. Taking it away from raids would be taking more attention away from that activity.

  11. #11
    I don't think it would work well between raid tiers, but I"d love to see heroics tuned at the same item level with harder mechanics and numbers, giving cosmetic rewards for clearing heroic.

    (In other words, I feel the only difference between heroic and normal should be the amount of skill required, not the amount of gear required.... then again, I also think gear progression has no place in PvP, so there's that...)

  12. #12
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maconi View Post
    I don't understand what you mean? If stats never changed, wouldn't it be MUCH easier to balance the bosses since every new raid would use roughly the same HP/damage/etc.?
    The gear upgrade path does two things:

    One, it allows for a progression of tiers, because each is tuned off of the idea that you've gotten upgrades from the former ones. If there were no upgrade gear progression, then all raids and all tiers would have to be tuned pretty similar. Now, that still gives you plenty of things to do (X number of raids is still X number of raids) but it changes the whole concept of "progression" since it means raids need to be on pretty similar footing since the raids will be mathematically limited by their end-game stats and can't rely on gear to increase their capability.

    Two, gear upgrades as a soft nerf for harder bosses without require Blizzard to actually nerf the content. If the end boss is too hard for you, you can always keep farming earlier bosses until you have more of a gear edge. If the new tier is too hard for you, you can always keep farming the prior tier until you have more of a gear edge. Eliminating this means Blizzard has to be more active in the tuning and actually will have to nerf content more aggressively when raids hit walls. They do this now, but generally only when the wall is very big. Gear also helps increase the speed of your clearing and the repeatability of earlier bosses.

    Obviously a game could be designed around this being the case, but WoW isn't. It would need a pretty big overhaul.

    The biggest argument against it is simply MMOs are, at their core, about character progression. Eliminating a way to progress your character end-game effectively kills the system. The carrot on the stick is why people play. I don't mean that all players are loot whores -- I don't think that's true -- but players like improving their characters and making them more powerful. Once there's no more levels to get, those players count on gear or they really don't have any reason to play.
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  13. #13
    One thing keeping the game fresh that is very situational is the creative (min/max) options provided by certain stat thresholds on gear as gear item levels go up during each expansion's course.

    Some pure DPS players may even enjoy switching specs mid-raid during heroic progression to really get the best performance per fight, and stats play into that a little too (to overly generalize). In turn, this plays into encounter design over the long term too, which is quite neat sometimes when you really break it all down.

    This probably wouldn't happen without some sort of upgrade system due to the mathematics, and raids right now are just the way it's been done. How to innovate? It'll happen sooner or later either way, of course.
    Last edited by Confirm Deny; 2013-05-12 at 02:16 AM.
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  14. #14
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    I can't imagine that this would work. No game I have ever played has avoided some sort of progression, usually related to gear. From the gold box games as a kid (levels, gear) to Psychonauts (levels and abilities) to WoW, I've never heard of or played a game for the sole pleasure of just defeating a boss without a tangible reward.



  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Guild Wars 2 dungeons really only give vanity gear (since all level 80 exotics of the same slot/type have the same stats) and that didn't work out for them at all. Game is dead already and it's ridiculously hard to get dungeon runs that aren't Fractals.

    Gear needs to offer progression imo.
    Its fun how you call "dead" an MMO which seems to be having 2nd biggest playerbase after WoW on the western market. And there are smaller games which are far from dead so... yeah. Hard to find a dungeon? Try using GW2LFG, takes few minutes to get a group. And personally I like the fact that there is no gear threadmill in GW and that is one of the reasons becouse of which this franchise draws me in. There are more people like me. If you would scout around GW forums you would find many people who claim they would quit GW2 if Arena IMPLEMENTED gear threadmill akin to the one from WoW. I dont claim one system is better from other in an absolute sense. Those are two different systems and each will find a following. One may be bigger from the other but that does not make the smaller one invalid. Same as I dont agree with EvE Online players who say that anyone playing games like WoW is just a stupid kid who cant grasp more complicated game. 90% of people trying EvE leave it after few weeks simply becouse its too complicated for them to be fun. That does not make all those people retarded. Same as vanity gear system is not bad just becouse you think it is.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I can't imagine that this would work. No game I have ever played has avoided some sort of progression, usually related to gear. From the gold box games as a kid (levels, gear) to Psychonauts (levels and abilities) to WoW, I've never heard of or played a game for the sole pleasure of just defeating a boss without a tangible reward.
    People like to see their numbers go up, they like to see their damage, healing, health go up.

    In First person shooters, people typically get access to more powerful weapons as time go on.

    In RP games you level up and get more and more power as time goes on, gaining gear as well.

    Their are types of games that you don't get more powerful, but MMO's don't generally work that way, and most fantasy games don't work that way.
    Last edited by Thirtyrock; 2013-05-12 at 02:51 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Awe View Post
    Its fun how you call "dead" an MMO which seems to be having 2nd biggest playerbase after WoW on the western market.
    On MMOC, dead = 'Im not playing it'.

    They should rename this site to hyperbole champion, methinks.
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  18. #18
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    it probably wouldnt have been such a huge deal if they decided not to bloat the numbers so much between tiers. it just seems like they keep growing at such a large interval that it really undermines previous content.

    i mean you have people running around with as much if not more hp than some of the WOTLK heroic 5 man bosses. it just seems silly to me personally

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    On MMOC, dead = 'Im not playing it'.

    They should rename this site to hyperbole champion, methinks.
    I do play it and I even really like the game honestly. Hence how I know that it's quite dead if you're looking to do dungeons outside of Fractals. I wouldn't have brought it up if I hadn't experienced it myself. My guild basically dissolved because there is no end game progression and there's no point to gearing a max level toon. The game was amazing for a solid few months but now there's nothing to do if you're not in to WvWvW. I blame that in part on no PvE gearing progression.
    Last edited by mistahwilshire; 2013-05-12 at 03:00 AM.

  20. #20
    Most of WoW's content isn't capable of standing on it's own merits, so they have to have artificial ways to extend the length of content so people pay money longer. Otherwise, people would just do a thing once or twice, and unsub. It's why the game is so laden with limits and restrictions. To keep people playing longer to pay longer. Zero benefit to the player, maximum benefit to Blizzard. This would never work unless Blizzard didn't want a monthly fee.

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