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  1. #1

    Tier 0.5 , Hard Dungeons , LFR, Attunements, Gating, Valor Points are Boring and You.

    When I think back to Vanilla and BC I remember having something to do all the time.

    What could we do?

    People could engage in a quest that they could follow at there own pace. This quest took weeks to complete but the reward was an epic item (back then epics actually felt epic). The quest fit the mold of an RPG and not some currency simulator. You actually felt like you were gearing yourself to fight the hardships in azeroth, not simply waiting for some arbitrary reset(once a week) to allow you to earn more currency.

    A game of Points is not an RPG or Immersive

    Would the legend of zelda be as fun if you could just buy the mastersword for 1000 valor? Or was it more immersive and engaging to be able to actually build the sword? What feels more like a currency SIM or an RPG?

    Currently the game is starting to follow a standard "formula" and with it is losing it's creative edge.(subjective I know but this is how I feel)

    - Farm valor to cap each week (because in WOW its not possible to earn anymore Prestige for killing stuff and making the world safer"RPG")

    - Farm LFR and normal Dungeons (because in WOW every boss has 3 versions of itself ..... not very immersive )

    Why Cataclysm dungeons Failed / That Epic Feeling

    If anything the dungeons were not hard enough. People need difficult content to feel a sense of accomplishment for earning a reward. Would you be proud of an Olympic Gold Medal if you bought one from Walmart? No. Now think of that Medal as an EPIC you buy with Valor(currency).... Is it truly Epic or are they similar to Greens/Greys sold in Vanilla and BC from vendors for gold?

    BC heroics offered a CHANCE at earning an epic item from the last boss. For example Sethek halls was extremely hard but it rewarded an epic gem(actually felt epic due to rarity) and the last boss droped an Epic staff with UNIQUE art and great stats. These dungeons offered something called a carrot on a stick for people to chase, with content that was repeatable on a daily basis (no waiting 1 week for reset giving players something to do all the time). Now what would you rather do? Dailies that people are complaining about all the time because of the tedious nature or overcoming a difficult obstacle with your friends to earn a reward that is not based on a frivalous currency(Valor) that is droped everywhere, lessening the EPIC feeling of it all.

    Cataclysm Dungeons didn't offer rewards on the scale to how difficult the dungeons were. They offered no Epics to obtain from the last boss or as an example, Epic gems. They offered items that were also easily obtained by and overshadowed by Valor. No carrot on a stick for players to chase.

    You may say Badge of Justice were the same thing as Valor and I disagree completely, at least the BC version(They got it right the first time and should never have changed it). If you are going to offer a currency for something at least allow that currency to hold some value due to the difficult nature in obtaining it. When people spent the Badges they earned, the epics that were rewarded actually felt EPIC to players earning them. Epics were not something just handed out to a bunch of kids trick or treating at Halloween (LFM Mumta, LFM GODA O look 15 valor!!!)

    Attunements

    From my experience people only need to run LFR for 3 hours, knock out the bosses and they are done for the week. Blizzard has actually removed content by making previous content irrelevant and lessening the EPIC feeling items now hold (good bye unique looking armor tiers , Just transmog or run LFR for a recolour...). Blizzard has given players less to do by removing attunements or keys and taken way that RPG feeling (LBRS you will be missed, so long Scarlet Key). How can an epic reward feel "epic" if the ease of obtaining it is just earning some easy to obtain currency and removing the mystery of finally seeing content that you worked so hard lay eyes upon (just seeing an encounter could be considered just as epic as actually seeing that shiney purple drop).

    When you are part of a fantasy world it make sense unlocking gates or obtaining keys. Rituals/mystery have always been a part of adventure (Looking at you indiana Jones) How great is it for the audience to finally see that door open or waters parts to expose the hidden treasures that await....


    In Conclusion/Suggestions

    - Allow dungeons to be difficult again and part of an attunement chain of some sort
    - Offer rewards on par with difficulty that share Adventure/RPG elements (eg. loot a part of an incomplete sword off a boss "o hi thunderfury")
    - Lessen the feel of extemely commen items that are not truely epic (reduce visuals , give unique models to truely epic items on scale with difficulty to obtain)
    - If you're going to follow the 3 sets of difficulty model at least reward each Difficulty with unique item art for each tier with the final tiers having some of the best designs in the game and unique items not just ilvl enhancements. ( again carrot on a stick for the players to reach for)

    - More attunements , keys .... sense of exploration and unlocking the mystery that lay forth.
    - Remove Valor Points or change it to a currency that actually holds some weight when you obtain it.
    - More quest chains people can take part in out in the world (all of azeroth not just one island) with rewards on par with time spent or unlocking secrets(dungeons, bosses, items etc)
    - Make this game feel like an MMO -RPG- again and return the sense of exploration rather than world of Drop down menu craft.

    - ????
    Last edited by ManOluck; 2013-05-12 at 05:39 PM.

  2. #2
    I kinda agree is that dungeon need to be harder and offer decent reward that match its difficulty. I don't agree with TBC dungeons being good though. Vanilla model for dungeon was the best. Long and Epic dungeon that you wanna do because it offers decent gears for you.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-05-12 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #3
    Brewmaster
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    Dejavu'.

    IT : another day, another topic with same exact pointless subjects brought up by few other angry posters.

    Suggestion ?

    Change game, go in a private server or .. adapt to changes.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Suggestions?
    Take off the rose coloured glasses of Nostalgia and learn to Improvise, overcome, adapt... if you are unable to do that I suggest looking for another game.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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  5. #5
    The Patient HeroZero's Avatar
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    Dungeons should be harder, much harder. Honestly I want to really have to work for it on launch, like get five people from my guild to have a chance at it. If the dungeons become difficult again then I wouldn't mind having worthwhile items off the last boss, instead of a 1% drop of something you probably already don't need.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
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    Your Zelda analogy is interesting, I don't think it is true seems skewed a bit to help your arguement along. Zelda had plenty of items that could be bought for rupies or picked up as rng after killing mobs, it also had some items such as the master sword that could only be earned. Wow has the same, some iems can be bought, some can only be earned, and some are rng drops (luck). Sure you can buy a piece of valor gear, but you cannot just buy everything you want/need (spiritsever for instance, a dagger that I have not seen drop in 30 kills of Lei Shi and 30 bonus rolls).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by HeroZero View Post
    Dungeons should be harder, much harder. Honestly I want to really have to work for it on launch, like get five people from my guild to have a chance at it. If the dungeons become difficult again then I wouldn't mind having worthwhile items off the last boss, instead of a 1% drop of something you probably already don't need.
    Exactly. No need to have a 1% drop rate when the content to obtain it is difficult enough (either though unlocking, attunements , or sheer difficulty of the encounters)

  8. #8
    I don't see how you can create a quest to complete at your own pace as everyone is going to complete it as fast as possible unless there are weekly limitations on how far you can advance like runestones.

    And I agree 5mans are not hard enough in MoP they were not "heroic" difficulty they actually didn't seem any more difficult than the lower level version of that instance just hp and damaged scaled up to match that of a level 90 character.

    I think at sometime WoW has changed from time investment -> accomplishment -> loot
    to just time -> loot
    Last edited by makkk; 2013-05-12 at 03:20 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by makkk View Post
    I don't see how you can create a quest to complete at your own pace as everyone is going to complete it as fast as possible unless there are weekly limitations on how far you can advance like runestones.

    Might want to read up on Tier 0.5

  10. #10
    2 words: challenge modes

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by zloitima View Post
    2 words: challenge modes

    Already completed golds on my main , but yes a good addition.

  12. #12
    God, stop complaining. It's like a collective gamer neurosis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by makkk View Post
    I don't see how you can create a quest to complete at your own pace as everyone is going to complete it as fast as possible unless there are weekly limitations on how far you can advance like runestones.

    And I agree 5mans are not hard enough in MoP they were not "heroic" difficulty they actually didn't seem any more difficult than the lower level version of that instance just hp and damaged scaled up to match that of a level 90 character.

    I think at sometime WoW has changed from time investment -> accomplishment -> loot
    to just time -> loot
    We got harder heroics in Cataclysm, much harder even than some of the TBC heroics. Heroic Stonecore took nearly an hour and a half for some groups at the start of Cata before the nerfs and don't even get me started on Grim Batol.

    Point is, when dungeons were super hard, required coordination far beyond that of a 5man pug, and actually demanded CC in order to succeed, many people stopped playing. The subs from WoTLK to Cata dropped from 12M to under 9.5M simply due to the fact that the content was WAY too hard and this game no longer has a large enough fan base that demands hard content.

    The subscription loss in MoP has been vastly smaller than that of the subscription loss in Cata, and MoP GAINED subscriptions back that Cata had lost, whereas Cataclysm gained NO subscriptions from the transition from LK.

    Also, a lot of the OP's post is definitely nostalgia. Most of the mechanics (especially dailies and faction grinds) are still in the game today. In fact, a lot of them are much improved, content-wise, and some even took LONGER than some TBC reps did. The 5.0 rep system was a long grind. A month and a half at least to get Pandaren Ambassdor, and that is if you did every daily, every day. People bitched and whined it was too long and too hard, so Blizzard nerfed them heavily and removed a lot of the gates.

    Point is, this game succeeds more when it is easier and more accessible to people. But by no means is the game easy. It takes time, dedication, and in a lot more cases than you will admit, skill.

    I don't see a lot of these people bitching about how the game has become too easy doing 13/13 Heroic ToT or Full Gold Challenge Modes. That's for damn sure.

  14. #14
    If you think attunements/keys were epic, you were not a serious raider. On the topic of badges, they were quite easy to get if you raided. I guess that was my favorite part about BC heroics, as soon as you did the appropriate attunements you could forget they existed. I feel bad for the non-raiders who had to run them over and over to get their welfare epics.

    Anyways, all those suggestions are a sure way to make subs plummet. I'm sure WoW could limp on as a niche hardcore game like EVE though.
    Q: Where the fuck is Xia Xia, SIU?!?!
    A1: She needs to start making eggs for Easter...
    A2: Drunk and sleeping somewhere.

  15. #15
    the problem with heroics is The fanbase.

    When heroics first came out, in TBC people complained they was to hard. So in wrath they made it easier, so people complain it was to easy, so in cata they made them harder, and people complained it was to hard, and couldnt be done in 15 min, so yea... in Mop they made them easier.

  16. #16
    I actually disagree with OP with cata heroics. Some of those were way tough. Granted, I agree with the lack of an epic at the end. I missed that. But I did LOVE the achievements for cata heroics. I remember running with the top of my guild right after hitting 85 to get the drake from that. That was probably the last time, for me, that I really enjoyed the game. Lost City and killing the guy with all the damage and being pushed around by cyclones. oh man that was intense.

    But I loved BC. It was awesome and actually a game. I miss Kara.

  17. #17
    Dungeons were not hard back in the day because they were meant to be hard. They were hard because they dropped shit gear with piss poor stat allocation. Plate with spirit and cloth with strength, shields with agility and int...all kinds of crazy stuff.

    Raids were not hard because they were tuned to be difficult and cleaver. Some of the bosses were literally impossible to beat without exploits or nerf patches. Do you remember doing Razorgore the first time he came out?

    A lot of what you guys is nostalgia. Horrific nostalgia in this case which is actually blinding you to proper in sight.

    With that said, i wish attunements were back. Why? Because they offered a static, relatively difficult goal which requires you to not only learn how to play your character but they give you a reward of content, which makes the content more interesting instead of giving you the content from the get go. I am not talking about Naxxramas GIVE ME 9000 GOLD YO!! type attunements. I mean Karazhan / SSC / TK type attunements.

  18. #18
    This is contradicting itself.
    In one thread people are complaining about bloated loot tables, bazillion dailies to spam in order to stay raid worthy on alts, gated reps, gated valor gear, expensive crafted gear... etc etc.

    In this thread OP wants to return to Vanilla and BC model where gear was many times harder (or more time consuming) to obtain or extensive attunement system that kept you locked out of certain instances FAR longer time than any LFR ilvl requirement does today. Imagine you need not 480 but 500 item level to queue for TOT raid finder. That means you're completely excluded from tier 15 unless you perform at least normal difficulty clears in T14 and fill those few missing ilvl with valor gear. You cannot advance to T15 solely from VP and LFR.

    Oh, the sub loss would be too great. And Blizzard could propably build a boat to float on buttmad players tears.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    When I think back to Vanilla and BC I remember things.

    What could we do?

    Play the game

    A game of Points is not an RPG or Immersive

    A game with points in it makes it a game. Not a game.

    Why Cataclysm dungeons Failed / That Epic Feeling

    I played Burning Crusade. I think Cataclysm failed at dungeons. Now Mists of Pandaria has dungeons. Ergo, because Mists of Pandaria is not Burning Crusade, it is bad.

    Attunements

    I ran many pointless quests that irritated me at the time in order to enter a dungeon. They took that away from me and now everyone can do it without being annoyed like I was. Also, I complained about the "artificial gating" in Tier 14 because it wasn't true gating. I'm okay with real gating, just not annoying fake gating.

    In Conclusion/Suggestions

    I have memories of things that I enjoyed that would not work in today's environment. I know it sounds like I am forcing these ideas upon you, and I really wish I could. Since I cannot, however, I'll just make another thread about how I hate the game's current iteration since it's been 24 hours since the last one went to page 2 instead of just getting off of the game and going to do something else.
    ????

    Suggestions?
    Yes. Stop making new threads about this kind of thing every single day. Also, go to your account page and unsubscribe if you're really unhappy. Finally, we're glad you have nostalgia but stop forcing us to relive it.

  20. #20
    - Allow dungeons to be difficult again and part of an attunement chain of some sort
    They tried re introducing difficult dungeons with Cata heroics, it was messy and people complained, you know after complaining they wanted hard ones again

    - Offer rewards on par with difficulty that share Adventure/RPG elements (eg. loot a part of an incomplete sword off a boss "o hi thunderfury")
    Be good, but you'd have to make dungeons difficult again, which leads to the above problem people complain, it becomes to easy to get, people complain every tom dick and harry are running around with it,

    A good counter, would be doing ones that rely on drop rates, like the epic in ZF, the only problem with that is, LFD makes it easier to get,

    - Lessen the feel extemely commen items that are not truely epic (reduce visuals , give unique models to truely epic items on scale with difficulty to obtain)
    I think up to current heroics the gear is pretty bland except for golden mail stuff, but since we have Transmog people will just run older content to get good looking gear to go over their crap looking gear, additionally, because LFR is here, the gear is only re coloured, which most people don't care about it.

    - More attunements , keys .... sense of exploration and unlocking the mystery that lay forth.
    I'd like this, but again the games gone more casual and it would lead to more complaints than its worth, hell, look at the QQ for introducing all those dailies in mop,

    - Remove Valor Points or change it to a currency that actually holds some weight when you obtain it.
    Go back to early wrath system, each tier, a different form of current, hero, justice, frost badges etc, atleast at that point you still had to run a small degree of older content to catch up etc. but again people complain it would take to long.

    - More quest chains people can take part in out in the world (all of azeroth not just one island) with rewards on par with time spent or unlocking secrets(dungeons, bosses, items etc)
    Item wise, theres plenty of chains out there for rewards, but yes something longer would be nice, slowly progressing over time, but one could argue we have that with the black price, also if you start making boss's and dungeons only available to people who have spent x amount of time doing y, then your going to have world war 3 on your hands

    Pretty much I agree with you though, just the games changed and cant cater for the "older" base as much as we want it too, also you can suggest any improvement in the game and I'll find a problem blizzard would have to content with, so dont think I'm being cynical

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