I always liked SSC and TK trash wouldn't mind that again
I always liked SSC and TK trash wouldn't mind that again
How much trash isn't as important as the difficulty I feel. Magaera and council trash aren't bad because there's too much of it, but because it's braindead boring and nothing interesting happens (not even loot, pff). On the other hand, it shouldn't be a problem if one of the healers is busy working out who gets loot, one of the dps is putting his kid to bed and one of the tanks is producing a marvelous turd. Trash should give that leeway. I'd say roughly the amount of trash that is before ji-kun with interesting tactics that promote personal competence but don't entirely murder the group when someone fails/dozed off/isn't there. Maybe some interrupts, some snails, some mobs that need to be seperated or tank-swapped, Mobs that need to die at the same time etc. Little things that make it so that there is something going on, but not as murderous as, say, the horridon bridge is.
I actually think the bridge is perfectly fine, the problem is the huge aggro range of the ghosts and how lethal they are when they come in two. And also how boring they are when you did pull only one because all you do is just nuke the thing. I think that place would be a lot more fun if they replaced the ghosts with some kind of caster mob that teleported from one end of the bridge to the other every time you did a certain amount of damage so the raid would have to chase after it. (the bridge may not be long enough to make it interesting for ranged dps though).
I don't think this matters nearly as much as you think it does.
Only trash I hate (in both main and LFR) >>Horridon trash and Ji-kun, enough already......
The horridon trash is annoying because it feels so unproductive. Wait for the tank to pull a mob back to you. Wait for stacks to fall off. Take 45 seconds to run across a short bridge at 25% run speed. F@*&!ing snakes!!
People think trash is annoying when you move too slowly through an area. Bigger areas need some trash to make them look populated, so it should have less hp so the amount of time spent clearing that trash is reduced. Or make it into a gauntlet where speed is rewarded.
I think people would like trash a lot more if you got 25 VP for clearing it in under 5 minutes or something.
I think it's perfectly OK in ToT. People hate trash, but people are quick to forget it completely breaks immersion without trash and makes it feel even more like a gallery of loot chests than it already feels like. Numerous analogies can be made within the game, for example teleports - sure people hate wasting time traveling but it also completely breaks the world if you can teleport everywhere.
I think the Megaera trash are the best, with a huge room and a extremely large amount of trash that can be avoided for the most part as long as you are clever. It gives you the feeling of fighting your way through it. It's far more interesting than Council trash where it's just one pack after the other, mindlessly.
I like the Tot trash overall, you just gotta get used to it and while you gear up it goes faster and fasters. I like the progression. Nice feeling.
Bridge trash was fun the first couple times. Now it's just time consuming and annoying.
Megaera trash just sucks, plain and simple.
Starting trash is ok, not much, can do it fast, it's K.
Council trash is maybe a tad too long but easy enough, plus it drops pets and stuff.
Tortos trash is cool. Only 4 packs or smthn, requires a bit of focus to not fail on the interrupts.
Did I mention the fact Megaera's trash sucks balls?
Ji-kun's trash has the snails. Insta win (though the flies are annoying as fuck).
Durumu's trash is cool too. It's also fun to see the random afk/sleeping dude getting knocked the fuck out of the platform !
Primordius trash is simple and fast enough. I like it.
Dark Animus trash was also quite challenging on our first week since we wanted to do it without checking vids or some shit. Took us a while to figure out how to work the ritual crap... Then laughed at ourselves when we realized all it took was stack up on the tank, interrupt the short-range dudes and aoe the fuck out of them.
Iron Qon trash is good too.
Twins is the shortest, I think, so it's also good.
Lei shen's trash sucks balls, though I hate it mostly due to people in LFR wiping on it.
sindragosa trash x10 times.
Just millions of adds to make absurdly high dps
Dragon Soul had it near spot on imo.
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It's nice to have a variety, and it would be nice if there were a couple bosses in this long raid with no trash. I actually like Megaera-type trash where there are ways through with minimal pulls and careful movement but you can also bull your way through and kill a bunch of it.
Trash without trash epics is disappointing, though. I think they really ought to have upped the drop rate for trash epix, and made one or two of them BoE. I do like the possibility of a pet from council trash, though, I wish there were more fun vanity items that could drop from trash.
Trash needs to drop useful things for the raid, currently the chance for an Epic to drop is way too small and those drops need to be BoE, that way a guild can sell them or help gear a member not in current raid. On top of that they should have a fairly solid chance to drop Haunting Spirits, again something that will potentially help the raid. They could also add flasks and feasts on their drop tables.
If they did those things, raids wouldn't be so upset about killing excess trash. Whereas now, you know that trash isn't going to drop a single useful item 99.9% of the time which makes everyone groan.
I'll finish with our raid finally saw an epic trash drop last night but they were useless, Plate boots with Intellect and no spirit, isn't a spec in the game that would use those!
The ideal trash for me would be groups that takes somewhere around 5-7 minutes to clear, and in some form prepare the raid for the upcoming boss, such as casting similar abilities or whatever.
3-4 packs is just right. Or 2 big guys defending a door. More than this is too much..........Ulduar had just a right number (unles you wanted too do XXX tower without the other XXX tower).
Trash should provide atmosphere and introduce boss mechanics.
Trash is our social time. We like to joke around and have a little fun. So it's nice if there is 5-10 mins of interlude between bosses.
Because trash is our social time, the type of trash I disdain is hard trash. It's hard to joke around and social when you are co-ordinating CDs and interupts so you don't wipe more on trash then bosses.
In ToT, Iron Qon trash good, Dark Animas trash bad.
My post is probably not going to add much to the discussion but here's my take.
I think no trash is terrible. It takes away the feeling that you're invading a castle/dungeon/lair to deal with a bigger enemy plus it feels lazy. Trash is important and needs to be there.
On the other hand, trash loses it's novelty fast. When you're there for the 10th the big end boss doesn't feel like such a threat anymore, he's just a piñata of loot. If he's so diminished then what can we say about the trash?
I really don't know how to fix any of that. That being said, I actually liked ToT's trash (normal mode at least). Some of them felt challenging enough to keep you awake through it, hell I've wiped more times on trash than on some bosses in there! lol
Mini-boss trash is fun, things like tortos bats and mobs before lei shen, takes time if you do it wrong but if you interrupt shit and deal with the abilities it goes fairly quickly.
Endless trash packs that don't actually do anything (Megera/council) or stuff that serves no other purpose than to extend the time it takes you to clear the raid (horridon bridge/ji-kun) is just irritating.
ToT would be one of my favorite raids if it wasn't for the sheer amount of trash in the place, makes pugging it a real bitch because even if you one shot all the bosses the majority of the raid is just spent clearing trash which no one really enjoys.
Trash is necessary #1 the raid feels like shit if it doesnt have it, it doesnt feel like a stronghold or menacing. #2 Theres no chance for free epics /BoE. Trash is necessary, period. I'd say the only trash in which they went overboard in ToT was in the way to Council, it was.....a bit too much. Other than that its all skipable or a joke to clear. Stop beeing lazy.