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  1. #601
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    Side node: Teriz: After playing warcraft 3 nonstop through finals week, and not losing a game with the tinker, i wouldnt be completely opposed to the class. As long as i could drop factorys EVERYWHERE.
    Of course you wouldn't, the tinker is a fun hero to play as with some really great abilities.

    Its part of the reason I highly support it as the next class.

  2. #602
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! They're never going to remove Metamorphosis from Warlocks. They have had the ability since WotLK. Also Blizzard's goal is to make Warlocks more popular. Introducing a Demon Hunter class and butchering the Warlock class in the process would retard that goal.

    Also the vast majority of WoW players never played WC3, nor care about Demon Hunters. So the DHs popularity among hard core fans mean little in the grand scheme of things.
    They have removed a ton of spells from Warlocks over the years, even class defining spells. Ever heard of a Drain Tank? It was a vanilla build for Warlocks. Every ability associated with that was removed. Seed of Corruption another mainstay gone, this is just Warlocks, every class had many core abilities removed. I use to tank Unholy with my old Gnome DK back in Wrath. it was a good AOE tanking spec. Now Unholy is just a DPS spec. I can go on and on with examples of classes being completely changed to match new content coming in. Spell get removed spells get added. That is not a reason for Blizzard not to do something.

    It is highly possible they Remake Hunters into rangers with only one spec being a pet spec. It is possible to make Warlocks into a Cloth Tank, it is possible to make unholy into a true necromancer. So our discussion has little chance of effecting what Blizzard does, because they can do what they want with their product, and they will do what they feel is more likely to be profitable.


    Your stance on Tinker is borderline pure obsession when any idea here could be right or so far from the truth that it is silly.

  3. #603
    All imma say is, that if this is real, It would be PERFECT.

  4. #604
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    They have removed a ton of spells from Warlocks over the years, even class defining spells. Ever heard of a Drain Tank? It was a vanilla build for Warlocks. Every ability associated with that was removed. Seed of Corruption another mainstay gone, this is just Warlocks, every class had many core abilities removed. I use to tank Unholy with my old Gnome DK back in Wrath. it was a good AOE tanking spec. Now Unholy is just a DPS spec. I can go on and on with examples of classes being completely changed to match new content coming in. Spell get removed spells get added. That is not a reason for Blizzard not to do something.
    Um, Seed of Corruption is still in the game, and Drain Life was converted into Harvest Life. DK tanking was codified into a single spec for balance purposes.

    NONE of that was to make way for another class to enter the game.

    It is highly possible they Remake Hunters into rangers with only one spec being a pet spec. It is possible to make Warlocks into a Cloth Tank, it is possible to make unholy into a true necromancer. So our discussion has little chance of effecting what Blizzard does, because they can do what they want with their product, and they will do what they feel is more likely to be profitable.
    I agree. However, everything Blizzard does is fairly logical and based on the game's long term health. Which is why you didn't see Demon Hunters in the Burning Crusade, the perfect expansion to release them in. Blizzard doesn't bring something in just because they think it will be popular. They bring things in that is for the greater good of the game.


    Your stance on Tinker is borderline pure obsession when any idea here could be right or so far from the truth that it is silly.
    Perhaps, but unlike some, I support my arguments with logic and common sense.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I ignored nothing. The examples posted from engineering were nothing like Tinker abilities.




    That's quite a stretch. First off DKs primary resource is runes. Through utilizing Runes, they generate Runic power. Runic power is a secondary resource, the primary resource are Runes. So no, the DK system is nothing like the Warriors rage system. Yeah Runic power degrades over time, but when it degrades, DKs still have Runes to perform special abilities. It's not the same thing.

    DoTs=Warlocks is a pretty dumb argument. I suppose you think that Shadow Priests are the Warlock 4th spec?
    Funny, did I ever say that the DK's PRIMARY resource was Runic Power? No, I just said that it was a Resource they use. Don't insert your own words to change the meaning of mine. Second, While other classes use DoTs, none of them have had a spec that focuses as hard on them as Afflcition did back in the days of BC and Wrath, when the Death Knight was designed and introduced. I stand by my point, that people suggesting that a DK feels like a cross between Warrior and Warlock is fairly astute. Where is your reasoning why a Demon Hunter can't exist mechanic wise? Because it would be similar to other ones? Hmm, seems like you don't win that argument.

    Also, love how you still haven't come up with an Iconic Tinker character we'd have as an NPC. Gonna ignore that one too?

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! They're never going to remove Metamorphosis from Warlocks. They have had the ability since WotLK.
    Paladin Auras would like to speak to you.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-05-16 at 01:02 AM.

  7. #607
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Why not? Seals were removed from Paladins, Curses removed, Priest Racials removed, Druid spells removed and much much more. Spells get changed around many times over. Look at all the Talent-based abilities that were removed in with the MoP Talent changes. Even metamorphosis now doesn't work like how it was first introduced in Wrath. The current mechanic is completely based on the Guild Wars 2 Necromancer's Death Shroud.
    Seals are still in the game. Curses are still in the game. Priest racials were removed because of balance reasons. Druid spells were removed to reduce bloat.

    The point is, Blizzard doesn't remove abilities to make way for new classes. New classes tend to be original enough that they don't require that to happen.

    I don't think they would remove it, but it doesn't mean the possibility is not there.
    Metamorphosis is a key aspect of Demonology. There's little to no chance of that being undone to make way for a Demon Hunter class. I mean seriously, think how crazy that sounds. Also think about how ticked off Warlock players would be.

  8. #608
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    You do realize that four specs and a new class would be like introducing five new classes to the game?

    There are currently eleven classes, so with each class getting an extra spec that would be eleven new specs, plus a new class with four specs would bump that total to fifteen new specs.

    Yeah, that will never happen.


  9. #609
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    Funny, did I ever say that the DK's PRIMARY resource was Runic Power? No, I just said that it was a Resource they use. Don't insert your own words to change the meaning of mine.

    No, you said that DKs had a similar resource to Warriors which is nosense. their main resource is Runes. Runic power is what the Runes generate. Like how mana produces Holy power, or how Energy produces Chi. Runic power is a secondary resource.

    Second, While other classes use DoTs, none of them have had a spec that focuses as hard on them as Afflcition did back in the days of BC and Wrath, when the Death Knight was designed and introduced.
    You never heard of Shadow Priests?

    I stand by my point, that people suggesting that a DK feels like a cross between Warrior and Warlock is fairly astute. Where is your reasoning why a Demon Hunter can't exist mechanic wise? Because it would be similar to other ones? Hmm, seems like you don't win that argument.
    There's nothing "astute" about it. It's a dumb comparison made by people who don't know what they're talking about.


    Remind me of when and where I said that DHs couldn't mechanically exist in WoW.

    Also, love how you still haven't come up with an Iconic Tinker character we'd have as an NPC. Gonna ignore that one too?
    Geblin Mekkatorque.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-05-16 at 01:18 AM.

  10. #610
    It doesn't matter how ticked off Warlock players would be. They ticked off Priests taking away racials, they ticked off Paladins taking away Auras. Player opinions on legacy abilities isn't a strong factor to use for gameplay, it's simply an excuse.

    The Metamorphosis mechanic currently in place is simply there to provide a fresh spin to Demonology, which would have otherwise been the a lesser Destruction rotation with pets. They used metamorphosis because it implies Demon Hunters are not coming into the game anytime soon. Things do change over time though, and if Demonology changes its gameplay again to no longer depend on the Metamorphosis mechanic, then it will be thrown into obscurity just like all the other old spells that have been changed over time. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about making room for Demon Hunters, I'm specifically talking about changing rotations and spell priorities simply to make room for new mechanics. There is no rule that says Warlocks need Metamorphosis.

  11. #611
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It doesn't matter how ticked off Warlock players would be. They ticked off Priests taking away racials, they ticked off Paladins taking away Auras. Player opinions on legacy abilities isn't a strong factor to use for gameplay, it's simply an excuse.
    .
    There's a big difference between taking an ability away for balance purposes, and taking away an ability and giving it to another class. You do understand that right?

  12. #612
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, Seed of Corruption is still in the game, and Drain Life was converted into Harvest Life.
    No and No.

    Seed of Currption it also had a crit chance of causing it to summon a Hostile Dreadlord. Which they removed. It did massive AOE damage and could be targeted to multiple targets. They nerfed it so it is just a upgraded Curse. They also removed All the curses from the game, and put them mechanics into two spells, I had 5 curses I could Use back in Vanilla. Drain Life, is gone, also gone Drain mana, they gave affliction a Drain spell that is a pale reflection of drain life. Pets could be Controlled by the player, I could move them independently I could Target one mob while my pet was on another. Best way to run AQ. Hell I had to tank AQ back in the day. So I can assure you nothing of the classic warlock is in the current post MOP Warlock. I loved the off chance of a random Demon charging me and trying to kill me. I loved being able to Spell Tank. All of these things are gone. The Glyph of 'Demon hunting' is a bone given to Old School Warlock players after they gutted the class.

    Of Course I was upset when Priests got Shadow. But that is something from a long time ago.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There's a big difference between taking an ability away for balance purposes, and taking away an ability and giving it to another class. You do understand that right?
    You mean like Death Coil? Oh snap.

    Going around in circles, but yeah. Essentially *if* a DH class comes in and Meta was a requirement, it's just as easy for them to phase out Metamorphosis as a spell and mechanic, create a new system for Warlocks . Then when DH come in, bring back the spell name for a completely new transformation ability. It's the exact same thing as Death Coil. It's not *giving* Demon Hunters the spell, it's giving them a new spell with an old name.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-05-16 at 01:40 AM.

  14. #614
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You mean like Death Coil? Oh snap.
    Death Coil wasn't removed. It got a name change.

  15. #615
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There's a big difference between taking an ability away for balance purposes, and taking away an ability and giving it to another class. You do understand that right?
    You mean like Death Coil? granted they have slowly removed it from Warlocks, to the point that only Affliction Locks have a use for it. It will be a DK only spell next major change.

    Also there are a bunch of spells that have been removed not for balance issues but because the core gameplay was changed. Tree Form Healers in BC, they played a lot different than today, and looked very different. Shamen use to be a tanking class in vanilla, granted a piss poor one because Blizzard could not find the right balance.


    Anything is possible you have to face facts and realize you will not cause Blizzard to do anything. Granted i do enjoy these talks because it shows me a good reason not to obese on an idea.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Death Coil wasn't removed. It got a name change.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77647/fel-infused

    "Fel Infusion". Is it really that hard?

  17. #617
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    You mean like Death Coil? granted they have slowly removed it from Warlocks, to the point that only Affliction Locks have a use for it. It will be a DK only spell next major change.
    Again, Death Coil wasn't removed, and ALL warlocks can use it. It's in the level 30 talent tier, and its called Mortal Coil.

    Do you people even play this game?

    Also there are a bunch of spells that have been removed not for balance issues but because the core gameplay was changed. Tree Form Healers in BC, they played a lot different than today, and looked very different. Shamen use to be a tanking class in vanilla, granted a piss poor one because Blizzard could not find the right balance.
    Okay, but that isn't removing a talent or ability to clear the way for a new class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 01:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77647/fel-infused

    "Fel Infusion". Is it really that hard?
    Lovely. But you do understand that the Warlock version of Death Coil wasn't even remotely similar to the DK version right?

  18. #618
    And you understand the Demon Hunter version of Metamorphosis is not remotely similar to the Warlock's? For all we know, the DH Transformation could be a resource-fueled ability that enhances all his current ablities instead of giving him new ones.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-05-16 at 01:57 AM.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    You do realize that four specs and a new class would be like introducing five new classes to the game?

    There are currently eleven classes, so with each class getting an extra spec that would be eleven new specs, plus a new class with four specs would bump that total to fifteen new specs.

    Yeah, that will never happen.
    WRONG SIR. Druids already have 4th spec, and I doubt they'd give them 5th spec, so that's 10 new specs for the existing classes.

    I think 4th spec is doable. The reason it takes so much work to make 3 specs for a new class like the DK or Monk is because they have nothing to start with. They're building those classes from the ground up. This is not a problem when tacking on a 4th spec to existing classes.

    Also notice that in MoP they were able to make not only a new class, but also a new playable race. I believe this is because of the new talent system. Instead of constructing a giant talent tree for each spec, all three share the same small number of talents. That makes the specs somewhat easier to design. A modern spec is nothing more than an assortment of passives and abilities that enable a class to preform a certain role. I totally think Blizzard could make 10 of those for existing classes.

    However, I agree that creating all 10 specs PLUS a totally new class with 4 specs might be asking a bit much, but I think we'll see one or the other. Blizzard needs to do something awesome to bring back players. Lets just say if the headline for the next expansion reads "two new races!" and nothing else I will not be buying it.

  20. #620
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    And you understand the Demon Hunter version of Metamorphosis is not remotely similar to the Warlock's?
    You serious?

    Demon Hunter WC3 ability;
    Metamorphosis (Ultimate)
    Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (60 range) and 500 bonus hit points.

    Warlock ability;
    Metamorphosis
    Temporarily transform into a demon, increasing damage dealt by 24.00%
    Dark Apotheosis
    You imbue yourself with demonic energies, reducing physical damage taken by 13.85%, reduces magic damage taken by 15%, and allows the use of various demonic abilities.

    In addition, Soulshatter becomes Provocation which taunts your target, Twilight Ward becomes Fury Ward which will absorb all schools of damage, Shadow Bolt becomes Demonic Slash, and Fear becomes Sleep.

    For all we know, the DH Transformation could be a resource-fueled ability that enhances all his current ablities instead of giving him new ones.
    Um, that's exactly what metamorphosis does for Warlocks.

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