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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    It is positive development, yes. But it is no change in the actual totem system. Totems still work 90% how they always worked, the last 10% are the silence nerf. The fact that the best they ever did in regards to totems was remove abilities from their system tells all we need to know.

    Unless they actually develop how totems function, and working on their still unchanged format of immobility, destroyability and the like, there'll will be no improvement on the mechanic.
    And unless the mechanic really improves, the worst that can happen for any new shaman ability will still be to be made a totem (CPT and SBT tell the tale of it not having changed at all).
    Totems, as they've always been, are still a sysnonym for weakness. There's not a single advantage they have.
    You're doing nothing but arguing semantics. "Totem system", clearly has a different meaning to you than some of us (almost everyone here has referred to it as such). For me, "design" and "mechanics" are both a part of that system. Getting rid of buff totems has definitely change the way I use totems and it is easily one of my favorite changes in MOP.

    Not sure why that is so hard to accept.
    Last edited by nazrakin; 2013-05-15 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    Well with totemic projection, you can do play around with them, but that takes a another really important talent as
    Exactly. TP is actually a change in the totem system, as it plays around with the stiff rule of totem immobility. Sadly, with totems becoming short lived cooldowns, there's not many totems left to actually benefit from it enough. If not for CPT, I'd call the talent completely not worth it, so I can sympaphise with people complaining that it should be baseline.

    @Nazrakin/Endus: I may be overly precise in my perception of the term "totem system", but I attribute that to a years old analysis of the totems by myself, at which I came to following conclusion:
    Totems differentiate themselves to other abilities through: destroyability, immobility and elemental brackets (well, and being physical abilities, the only upside, but blizz ditched that because they were to "hard to counter"). It is these parts that set totems apart from other abilities, and as such establishing them as something seperate, the totem system.

    The outline of cooldowns/no cooldowns indeed has an effect of the totem system, but it is not part of what sets them aprt from other abilities. There is to say: cooldowns had a negative effect on us because our totem system was not adjusted to this change. There were changes to totems, but not on the system that supported them, causing us to suffer from stomped utility even more. The exceptions are totems like grounding and tremor, which are supposed to be short lived anyways. Elementals or SBT however pay the full prize of no change to the actual totem system.

    That's all I wanted to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Exactly. TP is actually a change in the totem system, as it plays around with the stiff rule of totem immobility. Sadly, with totems becoming short lived cooldowns, there's not many totems left to actually benefit from it enough. If not for CPT, I'd call the talent completely not worth it, so I can sympaphise with people complaining that it should be baseline.

    @Nazrakin/Endus: I may be overly precise in my perception of the term "totem system", but I attribute that to a years old analysis of the totems by myself, at which I came to following conclusion:
    Totems differentiate themselves to other abilities through: destroyability, immobility and elemental brackets (well, and being physical abilities, the only upside, but blizz ditched that because they were to "hard to counter"). It is these parts that set totems apart from other abilities, and as such establishing them as something seperate, the totem system.

    The outline of cooldowns/no cooldowns indeed has an effect of the totem system, but it is not part of what sets them aprt from other abilities. There is to say: cooldowns had a negative effect on us because our totem system was not adjusted to this change. There were changes to totems, but not on the system that supported them, causing us to suffer from stomped utility even more. The exceptions are totems like grounding and tremor, which are supposed to be short lived anyways. Elementals or SBT however pay the full prize of no change to the actual totem system.

    That's all I wanted to say.
    One thing I will say is that, historically, totems have been balanced around group application -- that was always the intended upside and that is why the elemental limitations and low HP were necessary. Ironically, the drive toward class balance has disrupted that and so I agree that some of the limitations are no longer justified.

    Personally, I'd be ok with the current limitations if the totems had no duration (excluding fire). If Totems are going to be so easy to counter then players should be forced to counter them (ie destroy them).

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    One thing I will say is that, historically, totems have been balanced around group application -- that was always the intended upside and that is why the elemental limitations and low HP were necessary. Ironically, the drive toward class balance has disrupted that and so I agree that some of the limitations are no longer justified.
    It was a mix of single/group applications (grounding, sentry, searing... ), though you are right the biggest part was group based.
    Even at the beginning though, many of those were not really unique, such as magma or fire nova totem (others had aoe dmg as well), or buffs, including resistance.
    Other totems got scrapped also (windwall, cleansing..)
    Healing Stream was converted to single target
    And lastly, the change to short lived cooldowns hit some totems (tremor being mostly used as a fear breaker, rather than a group support)

    But yeah, I guess the group aspect was another upside of totems, though it was dieing for years now (wotlk was a time were it was still there, with old tremor and cleansing).

    Personally, I'd be ok with the current limitations if the totems had no duration (excluding fire). If Totems are going to be so easy to counter then players should be forced to counter them (ie destroy them).
    I'm confused, what do you mean with duration? That they would last indefinately/5minutes like many did at some point? I agree to some point if that's what you meant, but there'll be the problem of stuff like cleansing hard countering dks, or tremor hard countering wl/priest.

    As I exclaimed a few times before, blizz has to look at the individual totem more.
    What does it do?
    Which abilities would it be compared to?
    What disadvantages/advatages are approriate for it's task?

    Does Earthbind need to be destroyable where other aoe snares are not?
    Does Grounding need the same cooldown as spellreflect, despite not actually reflecting anything? Maybe add the spellreflect, or remove the downside of the glyph?
    Do dps totems need to be immobile? Why cant we have our searing or magma on our backs, or hovering around us, for more mobile aoe and single target dps?

    Well, and the shared elements being removed should be taken for granted. How many restrictions like that are in place? I can think of a paladins' forbearance, and they're hand spells, but that's about it.
    Punishment for more important totems being destroyed (a stun, or debuff, or high damage), or increased difficulty (increased health, more time spend on totem) are also things to be considered.

    The one thing I hold against blizz when it comes to totems is that they dont bother considering more individual treatment for each and every totem. Fact though is that it is needed, and that sweeping changes will never work.
    The sweeping silence nerf hit totems that were essential to work while silenced (grounding, tremor)
    The sweeping hp buff they wanted to implement (for the 3rd or 4th time) was cancelled, because some totems like grounding would simply be to strong

    You cant balance over a dozen completely different abilities after a single principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  5. #45
    It's just a way to separate some spells and abilities. Shamans still have a lot of totems and spells.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    It was a mix of single/group applications (grounding, sentry, searing... ), though you are right the biggest part was group based.
    Even at the beginning though, many of those were not really unique, such as magma or fire nova totem (others had aoe dmg as well), or buffs, including resistance.
    Other totems got scrapped also (windwall, cleansing..)
    Healing Stream was converted to single target
    And lastly, the change to short lived cooldowns hit some totems (tremor being mostly used as a fear breaker, rather than a group support)

    But yeah, I guess the group aspect was another upside of totems, though it was dieing for years now (wotlk was a time were it was still there, with old tremor and cleansing).
    SBT is probably the only self buff totem I can recall being in the game. Overwhelming, totems have been group focused -- whether buffing a group of allies or debuffing a group of enemies. Searing/Magma are exceptions in that they were never apart of Shaman utility. Most actual utility totems had very unique group wide buffs that no one else had. Thats questionable today, but I'm talking historically.

    I'm confused, what do you mean with duration? That they would last indefinately/5minutes like many did at some point? I agree to some point if that's what you meant, but there'll be the problem of stuff like cleansing hard countering dks, or tremor hard countering wl/priest.
    Yes they would last indefinitely unless destroy by the shaman or another player. Cleansing doesn't exist anymore so that's not going to be an issue for DKs; even if it did I don't see a big problem. If totems are going to be so easily countered and limited by element then they should be a "hard counter" for anyone that chooses to ignore them.

    Does Earthbind need to be destroyable where other aoe snares are not?
    Does Grounding need the same cooldown as spellreflect, despite not actually reflecting anything? Maybe add the spellreflect, or remove the downside of the glyph?
    Do dps totems need to be immobile? Why cant we have our searing or magma on our backs, or hovering around us, for more mobile aoe and single target dps?

    Well, and the shared elements being removed should be taken for granted. How many restrictions like that are in place? I can think of a paladins' forbearance, and they're hand spells, but that's about it.
    There are a ton of restrictions like that in the game. Warlock/Hunter pets all have exclusive abilities. Druids have to shift in/out of form to use many of their spells. DK runes are shared across most of their abilities, which puts restrictions on what they can use at a given moment.

    Punishment for more important totems being destroyed (a stun, or debuff, or high damage), or increased difficulty (increased health, more time spend on totem) are also things to be considered.

    The one thing I hold against blizz when it comes to totems is that they dont bother considering more individual treatment for each and every totem. Fact though is that it is needed, and that sweeping changes will never work.
    The sweeping silence nerf hit totems that were essential to work while silenced (grounding, tremor)
    The sweeping hp buff they wanted to implement (for the 3rd or 4th time) was cancelled, because some totems like grounding would simply be to strong

    You cant balance over a dozen completely different abilities after a single principle.
    I agree, that they should look at each individual totem. However, they can def balance them all with a single design goal in mind. I don't see Blizzard simply turning these into individual spells that just happen to have the word "totem" in the name. Totems will have some consistent design elements; Certain strengths and weaknesses that define them as being a part of that group of spells.

  7. #47
    Druids have snare/root ignoring as a class perk. Shamans have different class perks. I would be furious if I had to deal with shamans having one of the big perks of druids, and being unsnarable. It might be a fair trade for tremor totem, maybe, but even then it's just mad homogenization (aka, delete tremor totem, which is the CC shamans get to ignore).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Yea you know - how stealth is the rogue defining mechanic.. they'd never give another class stealth.
    How about Druids and hunters?

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  9. #49
    Mechagnome Pandorox's Avatar
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    Well shamans do actually have something similiar to druids *powershifting* abilities.
    We have that Glyph of Ghost Wolf.
    Which passively reduces slowing effects. (without having to shift)

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevii View Post
    Well shamans do actually have something similiar to druids *powershifting* abilities.
    We have that Glyph of Ghost Wolf.
    Which passively reduces slowing effects. (without having to shift)
    yeah... ok, sure.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    If totems are going to be so easily countered and limited by element then they should be a "hard counter" for anyone that chooses to ignore them.
    I remember having that thought when they nerfed grounding long ago to be destroyed by non-damaging spells. I made me really angry, as I was able to have it eat several cc, dispell, stun and other spells with one usage, if the enemy was to dump to notice the totem and destroy it. People nowadays aren't forced to play smart against totems anymore.
    There should be totems that give punishments when destroyed, but not that powerful when left alone.
    There should be totems without punishments, but need to be destroyed fast (old grounding)

    And the duty of a good pvper should be to notice which totem they are dealing with, not presenting a single sollution that fits all.

    There are a ton of restrictions like that in the game. Warlock/Hunter pets all have exclusive abilities. Druids have to shift in/out of form to use many of their spells. DK runes are shared across most of their abilities, which puts restrictions on what they can use at a given moment.
    True, but totems are just one restriction for shamans, out of several others. Elemental Shields, shared shock cd, elemental pets excluding each other, msw being used for different means, unleash elements/fury and weapon imbues...

    And while a druid may need to switch forms every once in a while, a feral, guardian and moonkin have 90%+ of what they need avaiable in their respective forms. A feral does not need to think about stuff like being able to use balance spells, whereas a shaman does, same with a paladin. A feral heavily using healing spells isn't that much different from an enh ignoring msw and ooming fast.
    Warlocks have exclusive pet abilities, but even without pets, they are probably the class with the most cc ingame, with lots of hp, mitigation and selfheal to boost. The pets are more like icing on the cake, and comparable to glyphs, or talents.


    I agree, that they should look at each individual totem. However, they can def balance them all with a single design goal in mind. I don't see Blizzard simply turning these into individual spells that just happen to have the word "totem" in the name. Totems will have some consistent design elements; Certain strengths and weaknesses that define them as being a part of that group of spells.
    Well, I'm fine for most weaknesses to remain, but never all on one totem. There's just no totem there powerful enough to require all downsides of totems at the same time, which sadly is the case for most totems right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  12. #52
    @Omanley,

    Indeed, only Capacitator and Magma totem (in (R)BGs make it worth, but then for magma, it becames so important that its BiS in RBGs :\ Aslong as i'm alive, noone can cap any flag at the base i'm
    Time is on our side
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