Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Blue Ghostwolf post on 5/12/13

    Question:
    "so why does shape shifting as a druid clear movement impaires but not shaman's ghost wolf? + the additional 10% speed increase?"

    Blue Answer:
    "That's just a druid class benefit. We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way."


    So, let me get this straight. Because you don't want a druid defining class mechanic to work the same way as another's class generic movement speed ability to work similarly? you wont even think about this as a glyph or something similar, like the Minor Waterwalking glyph that casts WW on you when you shift into GW? When I think of class defining abilities for shaman, GW is the last thing I think of that is even in the most remote realm of possible class defining abilities. The first thing I think of is totems, then weapon imbues, then mail wearing melee/caster, and after all that, GW still doesn't come to mind as "class-defining".

    You shoot for class homogenization, while attempting to keep them "unique". You say "We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way"...Thats funny, cause you keep tuning totems into buffs, and not actual totems like they used to be. Slowly, but surely, shaman are being homogenized into other classes :S

    Sounds on par with the treatment blizzard has towards shaman to me..."We just don't care enough about shaman to work on them like we should"

    I apologize if this sounded like a rant, but I am offended that Blues compare Ghostwolf to a Druid's Shifting ability. They have nothing in common, other than maybe cheetah form compared to ghostwolf, and that's still a SINGLE shift form for a druid.
    Shaman PvP Theory
    - "that all sounds nice but i prefer the hide behind a rock and dps method, and if they target you, ghost wolf, and if they start attacking you, bend over and prepare yourself psychologically."
    -Thunderspike

  2. #2
    When you put such a desirable mechanism as a glyph, is there not the risk of the glyph becoming mandatory to the point where it should be baseline.
    The glyphs for warlock soul shards and burning embers were a victim of just that.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    USA PA
    Posts
    3,367
    Yea you know - how stealth is the rogue defining mechanic.. they'd never give another class stealth.

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,870
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohmar View Post
    Question:
    "so why does shape shifting as a druid clear movement impaires but not shaman's ghost wolf? + the additional 10% speed increase?"

    Blue Answer:
    "That's just a druid class benefit. We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way."


    So, let me get this straight. Because you don't want a druid defining class mechanic to work the same way as another's class generic movement speed ability to work similarly? you wont even think about this as a glyph or something similar, like the Minor Waterwalking glyph that casts WW on you when you shift into GW? When I think of class defining abilities for shaman, GW is the last thing I think of that is even in the most remote realm of possible class defining abilities. The first thing I think of is totems, then weapon imbues, then mail wearing melee/caster, and after all that, GW still doesn't come to mind as "class-defining".

    You shoot for class homogenization, while attempting to keep them "unique". You say "We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way"...Thats funny, cause you keep tuning totems into buffs, and not actual totems like they used to be. Slowly, but surely, shaman are being homogenized into other classes :S

    Sounds on par with the treatment blizzard has towards shaman to me..."We just don't care enough about shaman to work on them like we should"

    I apologize if this sounded like a rant, but I am offended that Blues compare Ghostwolf to a Druid's Shifting ability. They have nothing in common, other than maybe cheetah form compared to ghostwolf, and that's still a SINGLE shift form for a druid.
    He was trying to say that powershifting, and shifting between forms, is a druid thing. Imagine if they gave druids totem-like mechanics. That's what Ghostcrawler meant. The Blue didn't compare them at all, someone else did. He didn't even say GW was a specific class mechanic, he meant that because spells are similar doesn't mean they should work exactly the same.

  5. #5
    Why does hex have a 45 second CD but polymorph has no CD? Because shamans are not mages, just like druids are not shamans. Why does lightning bolt have a higher cast time than smite? Because disc priests are different than elemental shamans. Why does riptide's HoT do less healing than rejuvenation? Why do shamans not have good absorption? How come shamans stun is a totem with a 5 second cast time? Because different classes with different mechanics play differently.

    Get over it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    He was trying to say that powershifting, and shifting between forms, is a druid thing. Imagine if they gave druids totem-like mechanics. That's what Ghostcrawler meant. The Blue didn't compare them at all, someone else did. He didn't even say GW was a specific class mechanic, he meant that because spells are similar doesn't mean they should work exactly the same.
    I see nothing similar between ghostwolf and a druids shifting mechanic. That's like saying a hunters aspect of the cheetah is similar to a Druid's Shifting ability. Which was the original point I was making with their comparison of GW and a Druid's shifting mechanic, they aren't similar in any aspect other than the speed gain.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 11:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Why does hex have a 45 second CD but polymorph has no CD? Because shamans are not mages, just like druids are not shamans.
    That I understand, because they just wanted to give us the ability to provide crowd control, but not be a replacement, because polymorph is a mage defining mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Why does lightning bolt have a higher cast time than smite? Because disc priests are different than elemental shamans.
    So you're saying that smite is the #1 main spell for a disc. priest? I highly doubt that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Why does riptide's HoT do less healing than rejuvenation?
    Well, for one, we don't need the HoTs, we have boatloads of AoE healing via totems, healing rain, and Chain heal. A secondary point being, HoTs are a resto druid defining mechanic, as AoE healing is a resto shaman defining mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Why do shamans not have good absorption?
    We were supposed to originally, but blizzard decided they didn't want us to tank. See changes of rockbiter over the last 4 expansions. We also had a shield specialization for being able to OT stuff in vanilla, but that went the way of the Dodo bird, because blizzard didn't want us to be able to be the jack of all trades like we were designed by blizzard to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    How come shamans stun is a totem with a 5 second cast time? Because different classes with different mechanics play differently.

    Get over it.
    And that is what I'm arguing for. The blue response means that they are putting GW and a Druid's shifting mechanic as the SAME mechanic, which it is nowhere near the same, and with your above statement, you are actually agreeing with me.
    Last edited by Lohmar; 2013-05-12 at 11:44 PM.
    Shaman PvP Theory
    - "that all sounds nice but i prefer the hide behind a rock and dps method, and if they target you, ghost wolf, and if they start attacking you, bend over and prepare yourself psychologically."
    -Thunderspike

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,870
    I know... and that's exactly what the blue's response was. I don't see what you are complaining about?

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,684
    OP, I feel the same way about Inquisition and Ret paladins. Instead of allowing us to refresh it on TV, they force us to manually refresh it for the sake of "uniqueness;" and because of that it feels like more of a chore, a pain in the ass, and a half assed mechanic.... and Blizz writes it off because "We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way" ... (extended answer) "we'd wrath make some bastard version of one classes ability rather than copy it to another."

    I know, holy run on sentence batman. I just can't bring myself to play my beloved Ret paladin because of that horrible ability.

    No, I'm not sore. No, not at all.
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  9. #9
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    17,739
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohmar View Post
    Because you don't want a druid defining class mechanic to work the same way as another's class generic movement speed ability to work similarly?
    No, they don't want the druid movement speed abilities to work like other generic movement speed abilities. The druid stuff ALSO applies to non-movement abilities, too, but the only thing that gets compared to Ghost Wolf is the movement-speed-increasing forms, so they're irrelevant to this comparison at the outset.

    you wont even think about this as a glyph or something similar, like the Minor Waterwalking glyph that casts WW on you when you shift into GW?
    No, because again, that system is meant for Druids, not everyone.

    When I think of class defining abilities for shaman, GW is the last thing I think of
    That's merely your opinion. The reality is that Ghost Wolf is one of the Shaman-defining abilities. It's been part of the class since Vanilla, it defines the class rather than the specs individually, etc.

    It's not the defining class ability, but nobody every suggested that.

    You shoot for class homogenization, while attempting to keep them "unique". You say "We try not to have every class mechanic work the exact same way"...Thats funny, cause you keep tuning totems into buffs, and not actual totems like they used to be. Slowly, but surely, shaman are being homogenized into other classes :S
    No. They aren't. They turned some totems into auras because those totems being totems meant they were mechanically inferior to any alternative buff source, and cost the Shaman the use of that totem element to maintain the buff. They didn't "homogenize" Shaman, in this, they buffed us, by making those auras comparable to those of other classes. That necessitated making them auras, not totems. They then added a bunch of totems to make up the loss. We did not lose totems in the process, and totems became significantly more flexible and capable of performing as desired as a result.

    It re-introduced totems as a dynamic class ability, rather than having them merely be inferior versions of buffs.

    I apologize if this sounded like a rant, but I am offended that Blues compare Ghostwolf to a Druid's Shifting ability. They have nothing in common, other than maybe cheetah form compared to ghostwolf, and that's still a SINGLE shift form for a druid.
    Then you're misplacing your anger. The person asking the question is the one who made that comparison. The blues merely responded to it, by explaining that they are not really comparable.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The reality is that Ghost Wolf is one of the Shaman-defining abilities. It's been part of the class since Vanilla, it defines the class rather than the specs individually, etc.[/i].
    Personally I feel that Ghost Wolf is fine(well, for the most part), but you know what irritates me the most about it? Looking exactly the same like that freaking dog that is standing in my tillers' farm. Even with the glyph..

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    How come shamans stun is a totem with a 5 second cast time? Because different classes with different mechanics play differently.

    Get over it.
    worst stun in the game, most of the people i talk to in wow are shamans i love to talk to other people who play my class/spec and get on well with them, NONE like capacitor, everyone hates the most unreliable and the move avoidable stun in the game.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 02:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No. They aren't. They turned some totems into auras because those totems being totems meant they were mechanically inferior to any alternative buff source, and cost the Shaman the use of that totem element to maintain the buff. They didn't "homogenize" Shaman, in this, they buffed us, by making those auras comparable to those of other classes. That necessitated making them auras, not totems. They then added a bunch of totems to make up the loss. We did not lose totems in the process, and totems became significantly more flexible and capable of performing as desired as a result.
    yup, it definitely shows more skill within the shaman class now dropping totems at the right time and using their cooldowns wisely, rather than just dropping 4 and job done, i can't stand people coming back and going, omg i want to drop 4 totems at once again this change sucks, and i take the time to explain how they are now all useful cooldowns now and you wouldn't really want to drop all 4 at once, maybe SBT/searing/HST but that'd be an overpowered use of a GCD anyway.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    worst stun in the game, most of the people i talk to in wow are shamans i love to talk to other people who play my class/spec and get on well with them, NONE like capacitor, everyone hates the most unreliable and the move avoidable stun in the game.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 02:59 AM ----------



    yup, it definitely shows more skill within the shaman class now dropping totems at the right time and using their cooldowns wisely, rather than just dropping 4 and job done, i can't stand people coming back and going, omg i want to drop 4 totems at once again this change sucks, and i take the time to explain how they are now all useful cooldowns now and you wouldn't really want to drop all 4 at once, maybe SBT/searing/HST but that'd be an overpowered use of a GCD anyway.
    The only thing i truly hate about my totems from a PVP stand point is that my elementals are still bound to the totem although they're supposedly my pet or guardian. i don't know how many times an enemy has just kited the elemental until he is so far from his totem that he despawns its truly frustrating. I wish they would just make them like every other guardian/pet in game already. Oh 1 more thing Searing totem needs a serious buffing or just needs tto b scraped completely. Atleast back in cata it hit fairly hard but now its just trash in both pvp and pve. I mean its just sad such a QOL shaman mechainc is so poor these days
    Last edited by SamoTray; 2013-05-13 at 08:24 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No. They aren't. They turned some totems into auras because those totems being totems meant they were mechanically inferior to any alternative buff source, and cost the Shaman the use of that totem element to maintain the buff. They didn't "homogenize" Shaman, in this, they buffed us, by making those auras comparable to those of other classes. That necessitated making them auras, not totems. They then added a bunch of totems to make up the loss. We did not lose totems in the process, and totems became significantly more flexible and capable of performing as desired as a result.

    It re-introduced totems as a dynamic class ability, rather than having them merely be inferior versions of buffs.
    "We did not lose totems in the process...". Ok then, where did our Totem of Wrath go? The Grace of Air totem? Stoneskin totem? Flametongue totem, Windfury totem, Fire Nova totem, Mana spring totem? All those are gone, and they are a large part of what made us unique. Particularly the WF totem and Mana spring totem. WF since it gave everyone without a weapon imbue WF, and mana spring because it gave everyone passive mana regen on top of what they had. They turned around the focused the WF/FT totems to the weapon self-buff, the GoA totem was turned into an aura, the Totem of Wrath was turned into a totem, Stoneskin was removed, Mana spring was removed. As for reintroducing them as dynamic class abilities, that would be a negative, because all other classes can provide the same things we provide, buff-wise, thus, more homogenization.

    You could even use Bloodlust in there. That was a Shaman only spell, yet Hunters and Mages can now do it... Why argue that you don't want to give GW a root clearing ability when you transform like druids and say that it wouldn't make druid shifting a class defining mechanic, but they will gladly give Bloodlust, a shaman class defining mechanic, to other classes? Bloodlust has been a shaman class defining ability since Warcraft 3... That's hypocritical and backwards of the way that blizzard says they do things, yet here we are...
    Shaman PvP Theory
    - "that all sounds nice but i prefer the hide behind a rock and dps method, and if they target you, ghost wolf, and if they start attacking you, bend over and prepare yourself psychologically."
    -Thunderspike

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohmar View Post
    You could even use Bloodlust in there. That was a Shaman only spell, yet Hunters and Mages can now do it... Why argue that you don't want to give GW a root clearing ability when you transform like druids and say that it wouldn't make druid shifting a class defining mechanic, but they will gladly give Bloodlust, a shaman class defining mechanic, to other classes? Bloodlust has been a shaman class defining ability since Warcraft 3... That's hypocritical and backwards of the way that blizzard says they do things, yet here we are...
    you compare bloodlust with shapeshifting breaking roots? are you serious?
    you had to bring a shaman to a raid to have bloodlust. they changed their design to bring the player not the class and that's why they gave other classes bloodlust. hunter is like a swiss army knife it can bring any missing buff. mage fits very good for this kind of buff and if you want to have 2 solid sources + 1 who can bring it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 11:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohmar View Post
    "We did not lose totems in the process...". Ok then, where did our Totem of Wrath go? The Grace of Air totem? Stoneskin totem? Flametongue totem, Windfury totem, Fire Nova totem, Mana spring totem? All those are gone, and they are a large part of what made us unique. Particularly the WF totem and Mana spring totem. WF since it gave everyone without a weapon imbue WF, and mana spring because it gave everyone passive mana regen on top of what they had. They turned around the focused the WF/FT totems to the weapon self-buff, the GoA totem was turned into an aura, the Totem of Wrath was turned into a totem, Stoneskin was removed, Mana spring was removed. As for reintroducing them as dynamic class abilities, that would be a negative, because all other classes can provide the same things we provide, buff-wise, thus, more homogenization.
    sorry but people are totally split in two groups here. one side would remove totems entirely and 2nd like you want the old system or what?
    blizzard lifted it and it is much better as it is now.
    bufftotems are bad. if they got destroyed you had no buff. great for pvp. you had to set it all the time. it had no other effect. people cry using searing totem and it does damage. bufftotems are much more silly compared to that.
    mana regen was changed so that totem was removed. the paladin sigil doing that was removed too.
    so in the end it was not to took away shaman uniqueness totems. we still have them. it was to make them more like cds instead of all time around stick. to give them a bigger meaning.

    so in the end you would say the redesign of the totem system was something which took the uniqueness out of the totems at all which I think is wrong.

    I don't understand the whole discussion.
    shapeshifting into animals and getting animal based skills is a class defining mechanic of druids.
    ghostwolf is only to give you more movement speed. you do not get new attacks etc. so you see it don't have the same meaning to the class.
    and the important thing you all forget. we can use ghostwolf indoor. druids cant use travel form indoor... what about that and uniqueness? as druid I would complain here all day.
    Last edited by Nebria; 2013-05-13 at 09:46 AM.

  15. #15
    Because Resto Shaman need more PvP utility...

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Darksoldierr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    1,379
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    *snip*
    I think, his problem is more like, that unique shaman specific things were either removed or was given to others too, and in return we gained nothing 'new'.

    I dont mind the new totem system, that important totems are like short time buffs. I only dislike, when enhance gets fucked over because Resto is op. 5hp totems are fine, it was lot more worse back in wotlk / tbc / vanilia, when you had to keep up totems during the entire match. Only capacitator should have some more hp, every other is fine.

    Only if devs would see enhance players as a unique class, not a sidekick next to resto and keep getting nerfed because of them.
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    Only if devs would see enhance players as a unique class, not a sidekick next to resto and keep getting nerfed because of them.
    well elemental is in the same boat.
    would be nice if they could get some new code in till next x-pack to allow specific totems to be cast while silenced so they could disable it for htt and slt (or whatever was to strong) only.

  18. #18
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    17,739
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohmar View Post
    "We did not lose totems in the process...". Ok then, where did our Totem of Wrath go? The Grace of Air totem? Stoneskin totem? Flametongue totem, Windfury totem, Fire Nova totem, Mana spring totem? All those are gone, and they are a large part of what made us unique.
    Yes, but I was speaking in the general, not the specific. You're also mixing up changes across multiple expansions, as Totem of Wrath was removed with Cataclysm.

    So, in that time period, we've gained; Healing Tide Totem, Stormlash Totem, Capacitor Totem, Windwalk Totem, Stone Bulwark Totem, and Earthgrab Totem has been made available class-wide rather than being Elemental-specific. If I expand back into Cataclysm changes, as you did, I can add Spirit Link Totem, as well. So, you listed 7 totems, I've listed 7 totems. As I said, we did not overall lose totems. Particularly as many of the totems you listed, we retained their effects, in spell (Fire Nova) or aura form, or they were upgraded into the newer totems.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome SkyBlueAri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Second star on the right.
    Posts
    618
    This thread just reeks of Shamans who are mad because druids r awesome!
    "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs." - George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    you compare bloodlust with shapeshifting breaking roots? are you serious?
    you had to bring a shaman to a raid to have bloodlust. they changed their design to bring the player not the class and that's why they gave other classes bloodlust. hunter is like a swiss army knife it can bring any missing buff. mage fits very good for this kind of buff and if you want to have 2 solid sources + 1 who can bring it.
    No, I am not comparing those two. If you actually read what I wrote, I was comparing what the Blue said about keeping Druid shapeshifting "unique" by not allowing GW to clear roots and the fact they are trying to completely do away with uinqueness. There isn't anything unique about a shaman anymore, so why should Blue's care about whether a class is unique or not, since they are leaning towards homogenization? Shaman used to be unique because of our totems, bloodlust, and the only caster who can wear mail. Monks now how their own "totems", which ironically can't be targeted and killed like ours, and mages and hunters can cast bloodlust. The only thing we have is our mail :S

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    sorry but people are totally split in two groups here. one side would remove totems entirely and 2nd like you want the old system or what?
    blizzard lifted it and it is much better as it is now.
    bufftotems are bad. if they got destroyed you had no buff. great for pvp. you had to set it all the time. it had no other effect. people cry using searing totem and it does damage. bufftotems are much more silly compared to that.
    mana regen was changed so that totem was removed. the paladin sigil doing that was removed too.
    so in the end it was not to took away shaman uniqueness totems. we still have them. it was to make them more like cds instead of all time around stick. to give them a bigger meaning.
    Well, first of all, "...it is much better as it is now" is all your opinion. Second of all, the buff totems provided stronger buffs that other classes. For example, they took Windfury totem off shaman and gave it to Hunters as a buff aura... That totem was probably the best melee buff you could give a raid. I do remember them removing the MP5 stuff, and baking it in, but I was just using it as a comparison to the totems we have lost over the years. As for shaman's uniqueness, it is no longer a valid point. We are supposed to be able to commune with the spirit world and the elements, yet we can only harness said elements, ie. totems, for one school effectively. Yes, we can cast all 4 schools of elemental totems, but no one puts down 4 totems together EVER. its always just the three, and then saving the CD of EB/EG or even EE for situational use. Back in the day, EVERY totem was a situational use totem. If you had a class missing from your raid, you could switch to the appropriate totem and provide that buff. We were the buff kings. Homogenization occurred, we had totems removed from the game, converted from buffs, or removed and given to another class, and now we are WAY less unique than we were originally meant to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    so in the end you would say the redesign of the totem system was something which took the uniqueness out of the totems at all which I think is wrong.
    Its a proven fact that it removed some, if not a majority, of the uniqueness from shaman. We were buff masters. You needed a buff, shaman could provide it, sans a few "unique" buffs, such as the Arcane Brilliance. We could easily buff your resistances - removed. We could buff melee attack speed - given to hunters. We are only class with bloodlust - given to hunters and mages, and the list goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    I don't understand the whole discussion.
    shapeshifting into animals and getting animal based skills is a class defining mechanic of druids.
    ghostwolf is only to give you more movement speed. you do not get new attacks etc. so you see it don't have the same meaning to the class.
    and the important thing you all forget. we can use ghostwolf indoor. druids cant use travel form indoor... what about that and uniqueness? as druid I would complain here all day.
    I agree, shapeshifting and getting new/different abilities is a class defining mechanic, which is no where near what GW is. GW almost strictly cosmetic. We get 75% reduced attack damage while in GW form, inability to cast ANY spell or totems, and the only benefit we get is increased run speed. With that, I see NO situation where GW could be comparable to a druids ability to shapeshift, as a mechanic. The only thing they have in common is that they change into "beast" instead of "humanoid". Which is why I think that GW should be able to clear roots/CC, specifically because of the "GHOST" aspect, ie. incorporeal. The fact that we can be snared and what not in GW, means that our class defining lore, ie. commuing with spirits and being able to control and manipulate them, is not class defining, in the aspect that everyone with a snare or CC, can snare spirits. The only class that should be able to snare/CC us in GW are priests with their Soul Shackle.

    But nope, blizzard wants all classes to be able to do what shamans do, and interact and control spirits.
    Shaman PvP Theory
    - "that all sounds nice but i prefer the hide behind a rock and dps method, and if they target you, ghost wolf, and if they start attacking you, bend over and prepare yourself psychologically."
    -Thunderspike

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •