Heroic Primordius - Help needed (logs included)

[Deleted]

We've now been progressing on Heroic Primordius for several days over the last week or so. Tonight our best attempt was 9.2% but that's the closest we got. Several wipes during the execute phase, several wipes due to tank death. After tonight's raid we looked through our logs and found a few things, that we can change/do better:

1. The Spriest needs to do more dmg to the boss, he will be told.

2. The Enchance Shaman needs go with Healing Tide in stead of whatever other talent he used.

Atm our guild has roster issues. We only have 2 geared MS healers and when we have to 3 heal, we have our Ele Shaman go Resto or log his Disc Priest. That in return leaves us short a geared dps, thus we have to borrow a dps from a 13/13 Heroic guild (alts in less gear).

Here's the logs from tonight:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ha67dd1b5w6hrk6r/


At first we tried having our Ele Shaman go Resto, then used a Lock from the guild mentioned above. But said lock hasn't been raiding much and is geared in mostly T14 Heroic and some 522 items and he had to go Destru to kill adds, which he wasn't used to.

We lacked healing and had to have the Ele Shaman go on his Disc Priest (that's Ericah), but to not lose BL and Mastery buff, we had to bring an Enchance Shaman in stead of the Lock. So the setup looked like this:


Prot Warrior
Guardian

Rogue
Enchance Shaman

Spriest
Lock
Hunter

Disc Priest x2
Resto Druid

We don't have a lot of options in terms of setup, so that's not really an option.

We prio dps to get mutated first, then healers and tanks try to get as many stacks as possible. We keep kiting (fast) the boss, drag the big add behind the boss, so that ranged dps can cleave. We tried lusting at the beginning when every dps was fully mutated but the healers needs it towards then end, so we had to stop doing that.

Main issue: The raid dmg is insane. Whenever a healer would use Hymn of Hope or try to get some Spirit Shell going, we were at risk of losing a tank, which happened several times. We had one Priest on each tank but during high raid dmg, our Resto Druid needed help on the raid. Then a Priest would swap to heal a dps and the tank would die. Our main Priest was doing about 100k HPS on most attempts (attempts where we got to execute phase), the 2 others were doing about 80k HPS. We won't be able to squeeze out more healing from them.

Anyways, we could really use some input on this. I think we're nearing 75 attempts so far:/

[Alarinth]

Seeing as your warlock is playing Destruction without a pet, he can spec into Soul Link and sacrifice the Voidwalker to get Shadow Bulwark for himself. That way, whenever very heavy raid damage is incoming, he can use Sacrificial Pact and Healthstone to get a 750~k absorption effect and 40k hps selfhealed for 8 seconds. That's before I even count in the absorption from Soul Leech, which often ends up being 450k or so on average (caps at max health, but rarely gets time to fill up all the way). If that is not enough, he has Unending Resolve to passively reduce any damage taken for 8 seconds by 40%.

Stuff like that is something not every class has, so those who don't have it really need to plan their healthstone uses. Take note of when the most heavy raid damage occurs, and try to line up healthstones with that. If you know such a phase is incoming, and one of your healers mana is semi-ok, I wouldn't wait with the hymn. Hymning during a light-damage phase when the mana is ok rather than not okay might seem like a waste, but could be the sort of thing you could look into to prevent the scenarios you describe.

I'm not familiar with the raiding scene for 10s this expansion, so I honestly don't know how it works. But we are also progressing on this fight in 25m right now, and I've noticed (as a warlock) that the damage come in spikes, so I try to save all of the abovementioned CDs for those moments. Also, if I happen to get the mutagen I pop it all right away, and for our healers it will be as if I took only 25% of the damage, if even that.

What we found was that saving lust for the end was the most beneficial, since we needed to put away 4-5 DPSers on Living Fluid duty (I assume you need at least 2 on 10m), and I think the same would apply to you - because in the end everyone is mutated and burning the boss, not only 12 (3 in your case?).

On 25m it is a big issue, but should be fairly easy to avoid for you - having everyone spread 2 yards (8 for rangeds).

[Deleted]

Our Lock always mitigates dmg, whenever he needs to and can. He's not the one dying, so while this might be of help, it won't solve the overall issue:/

The Rogue uses Cloak and Feint I believe, the Hunter uses Deterrence, Spriest Disperse. People are using what they can, but it's the insane amount of raid dmg - depending on what kind of evolution the boss gets. And I think that's maybe the most annoying part of is. If we get an evolution that causes high raid dmg, healers have to spam heal to keep the raid up. Using Barrier is meh, since we're all moving constantly. There's only one Tranq and the Spriest lol Tranq. And if healers use Hymn during low dmg intake while having say 80% mana, it's still kinda wasted and they're screwed, when they actually need it.

[Deleted]

If you ask me when i look at your logs you even have a 7 minute 33 second try which to me says that you guys pretty much have the fight down its just that you wipe due to the boss getting to high stacks and by that no amount of healers will be able to keep you up, its basically a cause of 3 healing it which means less fluids killed which means a faster "soft enrage" because of his stacks, the amount of execute wipes you had pretty much proves this. When i read that you say that you dont have 3 main healers i dont see the bad in it its actually a better imo, my guild has done this whole tier with 2 main healers and me as a Spriest rolling disc for 3 heal encounters and so can your shaman do without any bigger problems, what this allows us to do is basically 2 heal all encounters that is even possible to 2 heal because our main healers will be very good geared and we will have access to more dps classes usually and have the right comp.
My point here is basically have you tried 2 healing it? If not you should definately check it out, it will allow for a faster kill, more fluids dead(less stacks on boss), healers getting mutated(so they can keep up the healing). 2 healing is in no way easy but you have a good setup for it, or basically any Dpriest setup i recommend 2 healing.
Since you also said you know your shadow priest needs to improve i thought i might throw in some tips here since thats the class/spec i play. He should be fulltime on fluids while maintaining dots on primordius. Talent choices i recommend is twist of fate, cascade, FDCL/Mindbender(mindbender for more boss dps and FDCL for better ability of sniping off adds that are around 50% hp close to primordius.)
The way to play the fight as a Spriest is simple, dot up everything thats far away from the boss, use cascade on cd keep dots rolling on the boss and snipe off add close to him with SW and land ur DPs on the boss. When your disc priest loses his 1st mutation you want to be using VE to keep the raid pretty much topped while hes getting mutated again. Remember the more blobs you kill, the faster you can remutate and have more players mutated, so i like to live by the saying you can never kill enough fluids in that fight, especially since the more you kill decreases the boss damage, obv it kind of extends the fight but i still think its a safer way of doing it.

[Deleted]

you could try to 2 heal, all on boss except the ele shammy following around CL'ing the hell out of everything. naturally get the pools and stuff.

edit: you're probably already aware, but your rdps seems around 200k below the median and mean for a kill on this fight. Again in terms of timing, you're around a minute too slow on dps. Healing is spot on.

(ps. AG is usually far better hps than healing tide, and healing isn't the issue here anyway)

[Deleted]

The problem with AG (we discussed this after the raid), is that he uses it not only as a healing CD but also as a dps CD. I don't know about Shamans but others were saying, that Healing Tide would be better due to it's radius and because the 3 lowest targets might not always be the targets, that needs the healing the most or the targets that do needs it the most, might not be in range. I'll look more into this though.

I know that the healers were pushing out the max of what anyone could expect from them, so in that way, healing isn't the issue. But when we lose a tank (which was the case on most wipes) or a dps due to lack of healing, it is kinda a healing issue. As in, it just wasn't possible to heal through the dmg. I suppose a bit more coordination would be in place, calling for Vampiric Embrace, either AG or Healing Tide and Spriest Tranq even. But when a tank is taking 250k every 3 seconds plus the Primordial Strike from the boss, those healing additions just won't save us.

@ Discmeedel: Here's the assignments people had:

Lock full time on adds, AoE'ing like a mad man. Killing big adds alone when mutated, when not mutated, the Hunter and the Spriest would help him. Usually this was only needed on the first rounds of adds, before he could kill enough small adds to maintain his mutation.

Spriest was supposed to focus boss and not the small adds, but he explained that due to his 2p bonus, dotting up small adds happened automatically. He'd stand more or less on top of the boss, so that his Apparitions would hit the boss and then refresh the dot. The Hunter was full time on the boss as well, only swapped to help on the big adds when needed.

But as you said, we realized that our dmg done to the boss was too low. Thinking that the Spriest focusing more on the boss, would help a lot. Another thing that would help, is if tanks get fully mutated but that's the issue, there's just not enough puddles to go around. Same goes for healers, it's basically rather random, who gets what, after the dps are fully mutated. We could try and be more vocal about this, but there's so much shit going on all the time.

About 2 healing: I do see the benefits and we did in fact try this on the very first night of progressing. The problem was, that people kept dying left and right. Basically 2 healing means less room for errors. People not maintaining the minimum range to others, not dodging the shit from the boss (one of his evolutions), eating puddles, tank dmg. It just felt really overwhelming and we didn't get nearly as far as with 3.

Ps. I'd much rather have 3 MS healers and at least one with a viable OS tbh. Our trial Hpala is crap geared and can't be used for Heroic encounters yet, had he had the gear, I'd bring him for sure. We've killed 5 Heroic bosses so far and only 2 healed Ji-Kun and Tortos. But our roster has been a mess this entire Tier, undergeared people or people with little to no experience has made it hard to do the "optimal" thing.

[Deleted]

We had the same issue with the low dps on the boss as ppl would consistently multidot adds. Unfortunately we had only 1 night on it so far but when we changed to aoing the adds that pile behind boss it went like times better. Red pools werent spread all over the room so ppl woud not run around looking for them to mutate. The constant dotting of adds far from boss didnt give us much result, but we may not have done it properly. Would be nice if some1 that have killed it by dotting instead of aoing say why it is better if it is. About the tank deaths, we had some, and tbh i cant blame the heales for it, as the main reason i was dying was having 8 stacks from the add dot, while tanking hasted boss stacking his dot high, and poor chain of cds.You might look at what externals u have to use as the points i was dying i had nearly 300k dot ticking while being meleed every second. And due to his haste buff he applies them so fast that for the entire duration you are on the boss the dot will probably not go under 200k.
About random raid deaths, they werent so random it was always the combinations pistols + the aoe that is split. Because it is hard to avoid the the zones being targeted as it is pretty much hard to see anything, taking a 250k hit from it + 100k+ from the aoe, it would mean some1 not topped off would insta die. You werent dying from something different so i guess the key to it would be to soak with personals when pistol eruption is to hit. Or watch ur feet more. I would just go for the cds, or bloodlust.

[Deleted]

The problem with AG (we discussed this after the raid), is that he uses it not only as a healing CD but also as a dps CD. I don't know about Shamans but others were saying, that Healing Tide would be better due to it's radius and because the 3 lowest targets might not always be the targets, that needs the healing the most or the targets that do needs it the most, might not be in range. I'll look more into this though.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108281/ancestral-guidance - not 100% sure if we're discussing the same thing here, I've no idea how it could be used as a dps cd ;3. As it has no gcd I'd macro it with healing STREAM totem for primordius and ensure it's glyphed. That way you'll get the damage reduction benefit from HST too.

I wouldn't bother trying to micromanage puddles; it'll prob just make your vent/ts more chaotic than it needs to be. (and ours is just 'omg u stole my puddle you cunt'). I still think ele is a better call than lock for the adds blowing up, but thats probably six of one and half a dozen of the other sorta thing.

ps. Your trial hpala has like 5 ilvl less than me qq

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108281/ancestral-guidance - not 100% sure if we're discussing the same thing here, I've no idea how it could be used as a dps cd ;3. As it has no gcd I'd macro it with healing STREAM totem for primordius and ensure it's glyphed. That way you'll get the damage reduction benefit from HST too.

I wouldn't bother trying to micromanage puddles; it'll prob just make your vent/ts more chaotic than it needs to be. (and ours is just 'omg u stole my puddle you cunt'). I still think ele is a better call than lock for the adds blowing up, but thats probably six of one and half a dozen of the other sorta thing.

ps. Your trial hpala has like 5 ilvl less than me qq

I think I misunderstood what AG was, someone compared it to a Druids Nature's Vigil, which is a dps CD. But I'm still not convinced, that AG is the better choice though. That's something I will make sure to look into though, so thank you for clarifying.

About our Hpala trial, not sure what you mean by that. He's got no experience, hasn't even cleared Normal ToT and on the fights where we did test him, he sorta fell short. So no, he's just not an option.

---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 12:33 PM ----------

We had the same issue with the low dps on the boss as ppl would consistently multidot adds. Unfortunately we had only 1 night on it so far but when we changed to aoing the adds that pile behind boss it went like times better. Red pools werent spread all over the room so ppl woud not run around looking for them to mutate. The constant dotting of adds far from boss didnt give us much result, but we may not have done it properly. Would be nice if some1 that have killed it by dotting instead of aoing say why it is better if it is. About the tank deaths, we had some, and tbh i cant blame the heales for it, as the main reason i was dying was having 8 stacks from the add dot, while tanking hasted boss stacking his dot high, and poor chain of cds.You might look at what externals u have to use as the points i was dying i had nearly 300k dot ticking while being meleed every second. And due to his haste buff he applies them so fast that for the entire duration you are on the boss the dot will probably not go under 200k.
About random raid deaths, they werent so random it was always the combinations pistols + the aoe that is split. Because it is hard to avoid the the zones being targeted as it is pretty much hard to see anything, taking a 250k hit from it + 100k+ from the aoe, it would mean some1 not topped off would insta die. You werent dying from something different so i guess the key to it would be to soak with personals when pistol eruption is to hit. Or watch ur feet more. I would just go for the cds, or bloodlust.

You're right about the random deaths not being all that random. But the thing is, if you're unlucky and you get pistols when say a tank has the pathogen and needs even more healing. Sure, rotate CD's but if the pistols comes at point where there are little or no CD's left or healers are low on mana, then it's freaking hard to keep the raid alive. And as I already said, people are using what personal CD's they got.

As mentioned earlier, we have our Lock full time on adds and the Spriest multidotting is something we have to sort out. But the adds are being killed behind the boss, the big add is being kited behind the boss, so that we get cleave on it. All the red puddles are behind the boss, so our positioning is fine. It's basically about squeezing out even more dps on the boss, while making sure the boss doesn't soak too many adds as well.

So far, the best bet would then be to try and 2 heal it again or just hope for some really good RNG.

[thetom]

I think I misunderstood what AG was, someone compared it to a Druids Nature's Vigil, which is a dps CD. But I'm still not convinced, that AG is the better choice though. That's something I will make sure to look into though, so thank you for clarifying.

About our Hpala trial, not sure what you mean by that. He's got no experience, hasn't even cleared Normal ToT and on the fights where we did test him, he sorta fell short. So no, he's just not an option.

Well i'm gonna convince you, Ancestral guidance heals more (especially with the buffs on primordius) and is a 2 min cd instead of a 3 ( healing tide). The only situation where healing tide > ancestral guidance is if the shaman is not hitting anything.

[Deleted]

Well i'm gonna convince you, Ancestral guidance heals more (especially with the buffs on primordius) and is a 2 min cd instead of a 3 ( healing tide). The only situation where healing tide > ancestral guidance is if the shaman is not hitting anything.

Hmm I'll have to look more into this, cause we've always been using Healing Tide as a filler CD in the past. Like on Heroic Lei Shi and Heroic Jin'rokh but I suppose it's cause we used Resto Shaman and not a dps Shaman at the time. Anyhow, AG isn't gonna save us from dying sadly.

[Deleted]

Hmm I'll have to look more into this, cause we've always been using Healing Tide as a filler CD in the past. Like on Heroic Lei Shi and Heroic Jin'rokh but I suppose it's cause we used Resto Shaman and not a dps Shaman at the time. Anyhow, AG isn't gonna save us from dying sadly.

as above, always guidance. HT is simply the wrong choice for a dps shaman 99% of the time. Doesn't even use a gcd, and can chain it with HST. (you were thinking ascendance, which is and always should be used as a dps cd only). Your raid leader (and your shaman) should know that [AG is best] off the top of his head so just give them a slap.

My point about the paladin was you said 'Our trial Hpala is crap geared and can't be used for Heroic encounters yet, had he had the gear, I'd bring him for sure' - i'm saying his gear is okayish. Not ideal, but certainly not insrumountable.

We've already solved the issue though, your raiddps is too low and you're dying because the fight is too long. You simply need to be more efficient on the adds/mutations. More practice = kill.

[Deleted]

as above, always guidance. HT is simply the wrong choice for a dps shaman 99% of the time. Doesn't even use a gcd, and can chain it with HST. (you were thinking ascendance, which is and always should be used as a dps cd only). Your raid leader (and your shaman) should know that [AG is best] off the top of his head so just give them a slap.

My point about the paladin was you said 'Our trial Hpala is crap geared and can't be used for Heroic encounters yet, had he had the gear, I'd bring him for sure' - i'm saying his gear is okayish. Not ideal, but certainly not insrumountable.

We've already solved the issue though, your raiddps is too low and you're dying because the fight is too long. You simply need to be more efficient on the adds/mutations. More practice = kill.

Yeah about the Shaman, I understand why it's better for a dps Shaman. I guess if the Paladin had some more experience in Heroic raiding, which he has not. Cause former Hpaladins we've had could have healed it with his gear, I highly doubt he can at this point.

But anyways, I do agree that our problem lies with the lack of dps on the boss. Something we have to find a way around tonight and hopefully net a kill. But ty for the input, much appreciated.

[tanktank]

You don't have to be stuck with bringing in a hero. Your hunter can go bm and pop hero then switch to a mastery pet if the other buffs are present. If he has the gear for this.

[Nairobi]

Since we've got some people helping with logs in here, I wanted to throw our hat in, as we are approaching 80 (EIGHTY!) wipes on this boss. Being 9/13 HC and stuck on Primordius is getting quite old...

A LOT of the wipes are due to the Monk taunt (lolrunspeed) that causes the add to crash into the boss, so I know our wipe number is higher than it should be, but we're getting issues with 1) dmg on boss, 2) healing, and 3) raid damage from pustules that are causing serious issues.

First night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3i0mzahlbb0y1j2d/

Second night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hdjrfoofvz7cfpat/

Last night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2ahvgi7gtqkpwksd/

We ended up spending so much time last night on trying to get him that we lost out on another HC Twins kill, since raid ran too long and/or ppl dying to silly stuff since they were tired

We (briefly) tried 2healing, since we determined that healing just couldnt keep people up (not that healers were underpeforming necessarily, there was just a LOT of damage going out, some of it avoidable and some not). However, it left little room for error and seemed to go worse, largely, than 3 healing. However, even 3 healing, we seem to hit a wall ~4-5 mins in, most likely when healer buffs drop. We had some attendance issues that prevented our best roster/comp, but we're still coming up short even with our ideal setup. On a good attempt, we can get the boss to ~35% by 4mins in when 3 healing, so DPS is on par/ahead. Ideally we have our Afflock on adds with our Destro doing the ROF -> Chaosbolt spam to help out. The elesham cleaves off of the big add (behind the boss) if/when needed. Melee/others on boss. Tanks and healers TRY to get 5 stacks, but it seems hit or miss. Currently popping hero on the first set of transforms.

Should we try popping Hero later, to help out healers?
Should we look into 2 healing?
Should we stay with 3 heals and change who is on boss and/or adds?

Thanks for any help, we're really getting frustrated being stuck on one of the "easier" heroics.

[thsoern]

2 healing feels just so random. Getting the AE early in the fight is just a pain in the ass. IMO 2 healing is possible, but you must get pretty lucky on the evolutions....

[Deleted]

can i suggest letting your tanks get mutated first, so the add tank gets mutated before he grabs the boss -> tank switch (after 2nd black add died) -> other tank gets mutated while killing 2 black adds -> first tank asks for a dispell begins getting stacks while killing his 2 adds. this reduces the tank damage alot and also increases the damage on the boss - wasn't a major issue when it was 25% reduc but yeah helps alot on progress

[Deleted]

Since we've got some people helping with logs in here, I wanted to throw our hat in, as we are approaching 80 (EIGHTY!) wipes on this boss. Being 9/13 HC and stuck on Primordius is getting quite old...

A LOT of the wipes are due to the Monk taunt (lolrunspeed) that causes the add to crash into the boss, so I know our wipe number is higher than it should be, but we're getting issues with 1) dmg on boss, 2) healing, and 3) raid damage from pustules that are causing serious issues.

First night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3i0mzahlbb0y1j2d/

Second night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hdjrfoofvz7cfpat/

Last night: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2ahvgi7gtqkpwksd/

We ended up spending so much time last night on trying to get him that we lost out on another HC Twins kill, since raid ran too long and/or ppl dying to silly stuff since they were tired

We (briefly) tried 2healing, since we determined that healing just couldnt keep people up (not that healers were underpeforming necessarily, there was just a LOT of damage going out, some of it avoidable and some not). However, it left little room for error and seemed to go worse, largely, than 3 healing. However, even 3 healing, we seem to hit a wall ~4-5 mins in, most likely when healer buffs drop. We had some attendance issues that prevented our best roster/comp, but we're still coming up short even with our ideal setup. On a good attempt, we can get the boss to ~35% by 4mins in when 3 healing, so DPS is on par/ahead. Ideally we have our Afflock on adds with our Destro doing the ROF -> Chaosbolt spam to help out. The elesham cleaves off of the big add (behind the boss) if/when needed. Melee/others on boss. Tanks and healers TRY to get 5 stacks, but it seems hit or miss. Currently popping hero on the first set of transforms.

Should we try popping Hero later, to help out healers?
Should we look into 2 healing?
Should we stay with 3 heals and change who is on boss and/or adds?

Thanks for any help, we're really getting frustrated being stuck on one of the "easier" heroics.

Having any warlock not playing destruction is essentially bad in the sense that destro does so much more for you, having 2 destro locks with MF just raping all the adds behind him is awesome and iam one of those that recommend 2 healing but note there is a big strat difference when you 2 heal in the sense that killing fluids is always better than killing the boss for anyone that have good fluid killing capacity, this is because of a few things.
1. Having tanks and healers mutated for less dmg taken and more dmg done to the boss and more healing is very important when 2 healing.
2. more fluids dead = less stacks on boss = less damage from boss = longer time til the unhealable state kicks in.
3. as with nr 1 if you kill enough fluids to always refill anyones stack your boss dps will be tremendously higher and i can tell from your logs that this was not the case on close to any of your tries(obv you are 3 healing but your dps is still kind of too low.)

If you are still struggling with healing while doing this, just tell your dpsers to give prio to the healers on the buffs, that should work seeing as the only time my guild ever had problems with the healing was when the buffs dropped from our healers.

Edit: here is a video with my guild doing it with 2 healers from our Rshammy PoV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Z01olKYN0Cg

[Nairobi]

Appreciate the feedback. We had him go Destro for a few attempts, but he does not play the spec and was doing far less damage on both boss and adds than when he was Aff, purely because of unfamiliarity with the spec. I agree that 2x Destro would be extremely ideal, as seeing Destro damage STOMPING the meters, but it didn't look feasible for him/us. He went back aff, and was basically on add duty 100% which was great (in that he could nearly solo all of them), but meant almost no damage on the boss.

So, hypothetically IF we go to the 2-heal route, who should have priority on mutations first? It sounds like some are suggesting tanks/healers, which I can see (as tank damage output is huge with the buff/debuffs), but healing is pretty minimal at the start. Another issue we saw was if/when heal debuffs dropped, people died; would it be better to get to 4 stacks, sit on it, then get 5 ~1min later? Or just to get 5 ASAP (for disc smites, for example) and then retransform ASAP? Priority for healers over DPS? And Hero later in the fight, I assume (when 2 healing) to help healers out, even if it means not having all DPS transformed?

[thsoern]

For 2 healing, get one healer get stacks pretty early, and the other waiting with 4 stacks till the buffs from the first healer are <50sec. Let him get a 5th stack (getting all buffs up to 2min again). This way only one healer has to restack in the middle of the fight,while the other one has enough stacks.