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  1. #1

    25 Semi-hardcore guilds are taking strain.

    We just recently recruited a player that was reluctant to join another 25 man guild because since the start of Throne of Thunder the 3 he's been in have either dropped to 10man or disbanded. The guild he was in for 2 years dropped to 10man because they were stuck on horridon hc for 2 weeks while other 10man guilds were facerolling ji-kun and getting ahead on progress.

    The second guild he joined disbanded as he got there due to players not turning up.
    The third guild had 12 people leave to form a 10man guild because they were tired of people making the same mistakes , its pretty clear that 25 hc content is very unforgiving this tier where you can't have any weak links, in the past you could carry 2-3 people in a 25 man guild but this tier has been so finely tuned that you just can't carry anyone if you want to get somewhere this tier. I think 25 man guilds that have a roster of 30 good players will be fine but I think there is more pain to come for the 25 man raiding scene this tier.

  2. #2
    All guilds are feeling the strain at the moment. We are having a terribly difficult time recruiting enough competent players for 10 man normals. People just don't seem to be as interested in raiding anymore and if you do manage to convince people to join your raid group you are often greeted with a raider that plays poorly and isn't really all too interested in improving their abilities. All of ToT thus far feels like you can't really get away with carrying people. While I am not surprised that this is the case in heroic difficulty (it is the more difficult option for a reason and, indeed, you shouldn't be able to carry people on heroic) it is rather unsettling to see such a philosophy arise in normal difficulty.

    That said, things will get considerably easier with the advent of the item upgrades and as more people get ahold of the legendary meta gems.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Cathias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimitzles View Post
    stuck on horridon hc for 2 weeks while other 10man guilds were facerolling ji-kun
    Implying Ji Kun & Horridon are the same boss & that they both have the exact same mechanics, Ji Kun is extremely easy on 10man(not sure about 25man?) so saying 10man guilds faceroll through it, yes they do. the later heroic bosses are "easier" as 25man(mechanic wise) & once you get mid-ish in heroic progress you'll see a difference.

  4. #4
    It's not just 25 man semi-hardcore guilds, it's even the hardcore ones. Outland one of most high pop realms on EU lost solidarity (top 30 world rank) and nightwatchers(top 100 world rank) this tier.
    Right now it's just so much easier to go 10man for progress because you just need 10 good players, I do agree before you could get away with 3 bads in a 25 man guild but this tier is proving to be extremely difficult for all 25s whether it be roster issues or lack of progress.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 07:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cathias View Post
    Implying Ji Kun & Horridon are the same boss & that they both have the exact same mechanics, Ji Kun is extremely easy on 10man(not sure about 25man?) so saying 10man guilds faceroll through it, yes they do. the later heroic bosses are "easier" as 25man(mechanic wise) & once you get mid-ish in heroic progress you'll see a difference.

    Ji Kun is a lot harder on 25 heroic to answer that question, a lot more co ordination is needed.
    Last edited by DreamCast; 2013-05-13 at 07:31 AM.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Cathias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Ji Kun is a lot harder on 25 heroic to answer that question, a lot more co ordination is needed.
    Thanks for the clarification

  6. #6
    I think every raiding guild has trouble finding good replacements for people who leave their guild. It is my impression that the number of players and the interest in raiding has dropped significantly since the release of MoP. Therefore a lot of guilds has to turn 10 man or die.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael123 View Post
    I think every raiding guild has trouble finding good replacements for people who leave their guild. It is my impression that the number of players and the interest in raiding has dropped significantly since the release of MoP. Therefore a lot of guilds has to turn 10 man or die.
    On the other side, and maybe it's just my new server for 5 months now, you do see a lot less bads compared to Cata, raiding wise.

  8. #8
    LFR brought something to the table that did give raiding guilds a hit. You can now experience all the content and have a chance of winning similar looking loot at your own schedule and most players know under 5% of the raiding guilds will see 13/13hc cleared this patch. So a lot more players are willing just to go super casual now because a raiding guild is not required anymore. This is why TBC will always be regarding as the best raiding expansion in history of any game for true raiders.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    It's not just 25 man semi-hardcore guilds, it's even the hardcore ones. Outland one of most high pop realms on EU lost solidarity (top 30 world rank) and nightwatchers(top 100 world rank) this tier.
    Right now it's just so much easier to go 10man for progress because you just need 10 good players, I do agree before you could get away with 3 bads in a 25 man guild but this tier is proving to be extremely difficult for all 25s whether it be roster issues or lack of progress.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 07:31 AM ----------




    Ji Kun is a lot harder on 25 heroic to answer that question, a lot more co ordination is needed.
    There is currently an addon that you can download that says "GO HERE" to every member individually. However, putting group two on nest 2 - 5 - 13 then group 3 on 1 - 5 - 6 (This is just a random collection of numbers im writing) isn't called coordination. It's expecting your members to be able to know 3 - 4 different location which they have to move during the fight, nothing else. It might be slightly harder overall, but after having done the fight both 25HC & 10HC It's pretty much the same IMO.
    If Ji-Kun is harder on 25man due to coordination, then why isn't Durumu hc harder on 25? O M G 25 people doing maze

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    "Semi-hardcore". There is the problem.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Claynoe View Post
    There is currently an addon that you can download that says "GO HERE" to every member individually. However, putting group two on nest 2 - 5 - 13 then group 3 on 1 - 5 - 6 (This is just a random collection of numbers im writing) isn't called coordination. It's expecting your members to be able to know 3 - 4 different location which they have to move during the fight, nothing else. It might be slightly harder overall, but after having done the fight both 25HC & 10HC It's pretty much the same IMO.
    If Ji-Kun is harder on 25man due to coordination, then why isn't Durumu hc harder on 25? O M G 25 people doing maze

    The addon your talking about is only for 10man hc.

  12. #12
    It's pretty obvious that this is the tier of 25 mans, *cough* ...thunderforged.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tofifi View Post
    It's pretty obvious that this is the tier of 25 mans, *cough* ...thunderforged.
    lol I guess it wasn't enough.

  14. #14
    The logs of I've seen of 25 man guilds on Horridon H, they always had some spare DPS on the boss itself... which you cant do in 10 man. If you stuck 2 week on a boss where the world top guilds just needed 2 attempts and which is not even so much different than the normal mode... then you're just bad and not "semi-hardcore".
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimitzles View Post
    LFR brought something to the table that did give raiding guilds a hit. You can now experience all the content and have a chance of winning similar looking loot at your own schedule and most players know under 5% of the raiding guilds will see 13/13hc cleared this patch. So a lot more players are willing just to go super casual now because a raiding guild is not required anymore. This is why TBC will always be regarding as the best raiding expansion in history of any game for true raiders.
    Why would you say TBC was so great, there were tons of guilds who were just permanent Karazhan guilds. Would you consider 'good' raid design being stuck running the exact same 10 man for an entire expansion? And then you had PVP gear in Season 2+ that was better than gear you could get from anything before BT.

    Here's another ides: lets just release all of the raiding content at the start of the expansion, and then put in no new 25 man content for almost 2 years! Oh yeah im sure people would love that, and BT ended up being the worst raid in the world to farm and if you were on the cutting edge you were stuck farming it for months and months before Sunwell was even announced! OH but thats ok your awesome T6 gear could help you so much in pvp, and by that I mean that 'gear' could help you if you were a warrior, druid, warlock or druid; and did I mention DRUID. Pvp was so broken that most classes would just get completely destroyed by the insanely OP classes/arena teams even with having an amazing gear advantage.

    The game in general is so much less broken than it was in TBC, I swear that some people have rose colored glasses bolted to their faces.
    Last edited by Venant; 2013-05-13 at 09:06 AM.
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  16. #16
    Black Temple wasnt even out for 52 IDs, together with the life-span of SWP.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  17. #17
    High Overlord IsoLovesYou's Avatar
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    To remain 25 ,you just need to be strong and roll with the punches. I adore 25m raiding!

  18. #18
    Pit Lord Martinussen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    The logs of I've seen of 25 man guilds on Horridon H, they always had some spare DPS on the boss itself... which you cant do in 10 man. If you stuck 2 week on a boss where the world top guilds just needed 2 attempts and which is not even so much different than the normal mode... then you're just bad and not "semi-hardcore".
    agree. There is no doubt that the boss is much harder than say Tortos, Ji'kun and Jin'rokh but it isn't THAT hard. If you're stuck on it for that long you're doing something wrong or are just bad.
    "When you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you'll be successful"
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  19. #19
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claynoe View Post
    There is currently an addon that you can download that says "GO HERE" to every member individually. However, putting group two on nest 2 - 5 - 13 then group 3 on 1 - 5 - 6 (This is just a random collection of numbers im writing) isn't called coordination. It's expecting your members to be able to know 3 - 4 different location which they have to move during the fight, nothing else. It might be slightly harder overall, but after having done the fight both 25HC & 10HC It's pretty much the same IMO.
    If Ji-Kun is harder on 25man due to coordination, then why isn't Durumu hc harder on 25? O M G 25 people doing maze
    Clearly, you haven't tried Ji-Kun 25man heroic. It was a real pain to learn. We have tried different tactics and assignments until we found out the way that suited our raiders. While we were doing that (and since we only raid 10hrs/week, that cost us a lot of raiding time), two 10man guilds on our realm got ahead in progress by killing Ji-kun 10hc. And those guilds were behind the whole time during progression.
    I understand what OP is talking about, it can be frustrating, but people just have to ignore all that 10man crap and get over it. In this tier, 10 and 25 really different. Sometimes we finish clearing the instance on 10man and laugh at the difficulty. Our fastest Twins kill was 8:13 on 25man and 7:08 on 10man (a whole minute difference). As for Lei Shen, I think we had fastest 10man kill sub-8 minutes and our fastest 25man was 10:13 (so, more than 2 minutes difference). Bosses die so much faster on 10man, it's not even fun.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 13/14H.

  20. #20
    You throw them free boosts and they are still not happy :/. Sad times.

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