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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    The logs of I've seen of 25 man guilds on Horridon H, they always had some spare DPS on the boss itself... which you cant do in 10 man. If you stuck 2 week on a boss where the world top guilds just needed 2 attempts and which is not even so much different than the normal mode... then you're just bad and not "semi-hardcore".
    You're right, because Paragon, Method, and BL didn't spend ANY time on the PTR and didn't make ANY pulls on there to know how to stack their raid and how to do the fight before it was released. /sarcasm

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Ji Kun is a lot harder on 25 heroic to answer that question, a lot more co ordination is needed.
    Is it? Because, as far as dps and healing required, it's actually rather easy. If you take the time to make sure people know when to go up/down for their group and which nests need a tank, the fight is tuned such that it's really easy on 25s. It's pretty darn easy on 25 heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    i totally agree with this, gearing up in 10 mans require a LOT of good rng for your guild, the guild im in is DE'ing so many items from 10m that its just unbelievable. i wish they would change it a bit tho, making it less rng, like giving the same amount of drops as 25m but only allowing a 10m guild to pick 2 items, will give you the versatility of loot in 25m but with the 10m limit, would make it a lot more enjoyable raiding, hell we have a guy who is still using ilvl 471 staff in ToT normal/heroic coz there has simply not been a staff drop for him since MSV. talk about bad rng. in terms of getting gear, 25's are a lot more desirable, takes a lot less time to gear up in 25's than 10's which is something a lot of 25 man guilds that downgrades to 10 mans doesnt take into account, ofc if you have the luck, it doesnt matter.
    That would make gearing up in 10-mans way faster than in 25s. 25-man guilds have plenty of bad loot RNG, too, but they increased the loot drops in 25-mans to encourage them slightly. However, it still doesn't take a lot less time to gear up in 25's. Go look at average ilvl for 10-man and 25-man guilds around the same progression level. From what I've seen, they're about the same.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    Is it? Because, as far as dps and healing required, it's actually rather easy. If you take the time to make sure people know when to go up/down for their group and which nests need a tank, the fight is tuned such that it's really easy on 25s. It's pretty darn easy on 25 heroic.
    We must always be careful with how we define 'easy' because all of these things are relative. His point was that Ji-Kun is, relatively speaking, significantly tougher on 25 than it is on 10, because this tier has some pretty big differences when it comes to order-of-progression when one compares 10m and 25m guilds. Go ahead and look at WoWprogress; nearly every single 10m guild that is 2/13 has Ji-Kun as the second boss down. This isn't an accident. 25s are much different, boss order is far more dependent on each individual guild when it comes to 25s.

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  4. #44
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splinternz View Post
    Please regale us with further tales of how you killed other fights faster on 10man (normal, not tuned with full buffs in mind), with what are probably your stronger dps compared to 25man where you highly likely have 'dead weight' dps (i.e. people who don't do their share). What did you expect to happen?

    Truly a riveting read chap
    Yeah, yeah, so you still think that 10man and 25man are equal? I was able to solo tank Twins on 10man, getting up to 8 stacks of debuff in p2 before it was almost one-shotting me through cooldowns, whilst I can hardly take 4 on 25man. You are forced to 2-tank it in 25man.
    Also, we did not have any stacked raid for 10man, we just went with whatever people we had online.
    Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another pointless 10vs25 debate, but just accept that those 2 raiding sizes are different and 25man is tuned somewhat tighter. Yes, we get better drops, but honestly, about 90% of normal non-TF loot gets sharded already. Or goes for offspecs.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  5. #45
    I'm speaking of relative ease when I mention Ji-Kun in 25s. It was easier than other bosses. More 25-mans should go after that fight sooner in my opinion. If you have a RL that takes the time to download a spreadsheet and give proper assignments, you're pretty much already done. Again, the DPS and healing requirements to do that fight are pretty easy compared to.. Horridon, Tortos, and Megaera.

  6. #46
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    The problem is that ToT has no atmosphere at all so people cannot be bothered to raid it.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimitzles View Post
    LFR brought something to the table that did give raiding guilds a hit. You can now experience all the content and have a chance of winning similar looking loot at your own schedule and most players know under 5% of the raiding guilds will see 13/13hc cleared this patch. So a lot more players are willing just to go super casual now because a raiding guild is not required anymore. This is why TBC will always be regarding as the best raiding expansion in history of any game for true raiders.
    There's half a dozen Everquest expansions (at least) that would like to have words with you. Scars of Velious/Planes of Power defined raiding for early WoW - that's where Furor and Tigole cut their teeth raiding. WoW didn't beat Everquest because it had better raids - WoW won because it was always and forever vastly more casual than EQ (and that's a good thing).

  8. #48
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    My Guild has had it very rough this tier as well. We have always branded ourselves as "hardcore on a casual schedule" and clear all content usually world 300s. DS was a good tier for us because we got Ultraxion at 0% the week before the 5%.

    Recruitment is near impossible because even if you are on a casual schedule the personal demands for heroic encounters is at such a high level in 25s that recruits all either have entitlement problems or realize they prefer 10m.

    This isn't a 10v25 debate. 10 is obviously a better fit for most raiders in modern WoW and I really wish they could address this somehow soon.

    I am used to a fair bit of stress being the GL/RL but it had escalated this expansion to near intolerable levels. I can't be the only 25m guild leader near the end of his rope.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Ji Kun is a lot harder on 25 heroic to answer that question, a lot more co ordination is needed.
    Well, depends on the guild it seems. This week we've one-shot Ji-Kun on 25 heroic, while still struggling to get a Horridon kill after ~50 wipes.
    Different people are good at different things.

  10. #50
    I'm an exceptional player, but I choose not to raid. I just can't justify sticking to a schedule on week nights, I prefer to have a social life. If Blizzard brought back incentives to raid, like removing titles and mounts when content becomes outdated, then I'd make time to raid. But until that day I'll just enjoy LFR and play at my own pace.

  11. #51
    Semi-hardcore 25-mans are probably the 25-man audience that is feeling the strain the most. Despite being competitive, the progression can be held back by a very small number of players. Cutting down to 10-man will become an increasingly attractive alternative. If it's not an attractive alternative to the guild, it will be for individual players.

    It is not surprising to me that the 25-mans left are generally either very dedicated or casual. It doesn't help that there seems to be a lack of raiders.

    As far as the other discussion goes, I wouldn't bother comparing Ji-kun on 25-man and 10-man. They're different fights.

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nimitzles View Post
    We just recently recruited a player that was reluctant to join another 25 man guild because since the start of Throne of Thunder the 3 he's been in have either dropped to 10man or disbanded. The guild he was in for 2 years dropped to 10man because they were stuck on horridon hc for 2 weeks while other 10man guilds were facerolling ji-kun and getting ahead on progress.

    The second guild he joined disbanded as he got there due to players not turning up.
    The third guild had 12 people leave to form a 10man guild because they were tired of people making the same mistakes , its pretty clear that 25 hc content is very unforgiving this tier where you can't have any weak links, in the past you could carry 2-3 people in a 25 man guild but this tier has been so finely tuned that you just can't carry anyone if you want to get somewhere this tier. I think 25 man guilds that have a roster of 30 good players will be fine but I think there is more pain to come for the 25 man raiding scene this tier.
    Please stop using the word "semi-hardcore" there is no "semi" hardcore, there is only hardcore.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    Please stop using the word "semi-hardcore" there is no "semi" hardcore, there is only hardcore.
    Semi hardcore is when you raid 20+ hrs a week and still achieve nothing.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Semi-Hardcore = 3/4 nights a week with mild progression(2-4 bosses HC at this point).

    We have so far lost 3 raid nights due to holidays that have happened in Europe(Easter etc.), so my guild would probably be 3/13 25HC atm, but we are 2/13 25HC atm(Jin'Rokh and Tortos).

  15. #55
    High Overlord
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    The amount of false information on these forums is astonishing. People arguing that it's hard to gear up in a 25 man.

    A 11/13 Heroic guild in my region required a warlock. One of their raiders power leveled a warlock. Within 2 resets, the warlock was ilevel 532. Armory

    My main, also a warlock, who is 13/13 Heroic. Having cleared 8+ weeks and 2 additional Heroic bosses, is 532. Armory

    On topic though, recruitment at the moment is hard regardless of which format you're raiding. Be it 10/25/Hardcore/Semi-hardcore. There simply aren't many quality players left who are interested in putting in that little extra time for raiding, regardless of how progressed you are already.

  16. #56
    People are actually arguing thats its hard to gear up in a 25 man? People, I'm about to quit the fucking game since I still have 520 ilvl with 11/13 H heroics down in 10 man. Didnt get a single piece since 2 months or so, and I still am using the DMF trinket... ~.~
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  17. #57
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    People are actually arguing thats its hard to gear up in a 25 man? People, I'm about to quit the fucking game since I still have 520 ilvl with 11/13 H heroics down in 10 man. Didnt get a single piece since 2 months or so, and I still am using the DMF trinket... ~.~
    Then you're either extremely unlucky or you have a very bad loot system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbringer O'Mrogg
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  18. #58
    Stood in the Fire Vapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Then you're either extremely unlucky or you have a very bad loot system.
    Just unlucky + 10man loot system so you cant even funnel gear for him since it doesnt drop.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Then you're either extremely unlucky or you have a very bad loot system.
    Loot council, its just because nothing drops... 50% useless shit for everyone in the raid, MAYBE 1-3 TF items per ID, unlike 25 man.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    I'm an exceptional player, but I choose not to raid. I just can't justify sticking to a schedule on week nights, I prefer to have a social life. If Blizzard brought back incentives to raid, like removing titles and mounts when content becomes outdated, then I'd make time to raid. But until that day I'll just enjoy LFR and play at my own pace.
    This is pretty interesting. So Titles and mounts being available 1 year after the content is replaced, somehow makes the time commitment to raiding not worth it ?

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