25 Semi-hardcore guilds are taking strain.

[Ethes]

LFR brought something to the table that did give raiding guilds a hit. You can now experience all the content and have a chance of winning similar looking loot at your own schedule and most players know under 5% of the raiding guilds will see 13/13hc cleared this patch. So a lot more players are willing just to go super casual now because a raiding guild is not required anymore. This is why TBC will always be regarding as the best raiding expansion in history of any game for true raiders.

I don't see how this "TBC was better" thing, is relevant. But moreover, I disagree with you on the "Blame LFR" part. As generally I think that heroic raiders want a bit more than just seeing the content and actually want a challenge. Otherwise they wouldn't raid heroic content to start with...

[Kapaya]

and most players know under 5% of the raiding guilds will see 13/13hc cleared this patch.

Maybe the 10man version. But 25man? I honestly don't think that top 50 will be taken until maybe next tier. Lei Shen is a brutal fight that will push your guild very hard, especially mechanic wise. One persons screwup can lead to a complete raidwipe.

[Gilian]

Why would you say TBC was so great, there were tons of guilds who were just permanent Karazhan guilds. Would you consider 'good' raid design being stuck running the exact same 10 man for an entire expansion? And then you had PVP gear in Season 2+ that was better than gear you could get from anything before BT.

Here's another ides: lets just release all of the raiding content at the start of the expansion, and then put in no new 25 man content for almost 2 years! Oh yeah im sure people would love that, and BT ended up being the worst raid in the world to farm and if you were on the cutting edge you were stuck farming it for months and months before Sunwell was even announced! OH but thats ok your awesome T6 gear could help you so much in pvp, and by that I mean that 'gear' could help you if you were a warrior, druid, warlock or druid; and did I mention DRUID. Pvp was so broken that most classes would just get completely destroyed by the insanely OP classes/arena teams even with having an amazing gear advantage.

The game in general is so much less broken than it was in TBC, I swear that some people have rose colored glasses bolted to their faces.

And how was farming ICC or DS for months any better? How is guilds downscaling to 10 man good for raiding? How is it a good thing for raiding that recruiting is harder than ever before? How is it good for raiding that it is far less rewarding to be in a guild now than during TBC and even WotLK?
How does doing three different difficulties not feel like you are farming content since you are doing the same instance over and over again?

Less broken, depending on how you look at it. I rather have some bugs and some inconvenience than be bored.

What does PvP have to do with raiding anyway? Like balance is better now. It's shit every single patch and they keep changing things every week...

I don't see how this "TBC was better" thing, is relevant. But moreover, I disagree with you on the "Blame LFR" part. As generally I think that heroic raiders want a bit more than just seeing the content and actually want a challenge. Otherwise they wouldn't raid heroic content to start with...

Are you seriously saying that LFR has no impact whatsoever to raiding guilds? :S

[Kavoo]

Horridon hc just made my 4 year raid group break apart.

[Ethes]

Are you seriously saying that LFR has no impact whatsoever to raiding guilds? :S

I'm saying that I think that people who want to do heroic raiding will not be satisfied by purely running LFR and therefore not join a heroic raiding guild.
Other than that, I definitly think that LFR has influence on the raiding community

[Kavoo]

I'm saying that I think that people who want to do heroic raiding will not be satisfied by purely running LFR and therefore not join a heroic raiding guild.
Other than that, I definitly think that LFR has influence on the raiding community

now people will demmand that you get full LFR gear before even joining a normal raid group.

[Totaltotemic]

There's a lot of pressure on this tier because we've only had a mid tier of an expansion (read: everyone starts on time and at some date in the near future the next tier will be out) this big once before, and that was Ulduar. However, patch cycles being what they are, the tier after Ulduar came out long before most guilds finished it. The knowledge of the patch cycle now gives us this apprehension that we know we have some end date X that we must finish the tier (talking all heroic modes here), and that's a much more strenuous idea when there's 13 bosses and a lot of trash, every week lost one week closer to the point at which Ra'Den and heroic Lei Shen progression becomes meaningless and we start focusing on something else instead. Even going at a decent pace of a new boss every week or two might not be enough for this tier.

Because of the linear nature of the raid, the gear gap, and the looming deadline, there's a war over whether guilds should full clear each week or keep pulling the heroic boss of the week until the bitter end, and it's causing huge amounts of conflict. If you push progression, you may miss out on set bonuses, trinkets, weapons, and just general thunderforged gear that might be a hell of a lot better than those 502s or 509s you might still be wearing, which can make a huge difference in making bosses easier. If you are dead set on farming every week, that's ~6 hours of progression you simply cannot do that week, far more than Firelands in which the opposite was true and people got burnt out because of too much time on progression. It's definitely a very strenuous tier we've got going on right now.

now people will demmand that you get full LFR gear before even joining a normal raid group.

Adding to this because it's related to the decline in available raiders as a whole: gear is a bitch this expansion. If you are not already in 515+ ilvl, you're essentially worthless when it comes to heroic progression, and if you're below 500 ilvl you're not killing normal Megaera. You do not go from LFR to normal of that tier, you MUST go back and do T14 content for better gear (heroic HoF/ToES drop 509!), and you definitely do not go from LFR to heroic. On top of that is the legendary quest progress, the other officers in my guild and I had to institute a policy that if someone isn't done with Test of Valor on that character yet, we have to decline their app immediately unless some outstanding circumstance makes them worthwhile. With how constrained the deadlines for progression are now, we can't afford to take anyone that won't be useful on progression for 4+ weeks, it's a waste of gear and it slows down our farm time if we have to bring them in. If you decided to switch mains between guilds or took a few months off, it's pretty much impossible for you to get into ToT heroic raiding at this point, there's just no time to catch someone up, especially since valor gear is 19 ilvls lower than heroic thunderforged. As such, recruiting is a lot harder now not because of a shortage of applicants, we still get a ton, but because any app has to have been consistently raiding for the past few months to even be considered, meaning the pool shrinks every time someone takes a break or decides to switch mains mid-expansion.

[Ethes]

now people will demmand that you get full LFR gear before even joining a normal raid group.

Well I don't think demanding item level 500-ish is that strange for starting out in ToT. I think we set our minimum at 490 when we got started.. What gear that is exactly is however, not important. And if you've not been in a guild the previous tier, than you'll need to gear up (read: farm LFR)

[Kiea]

Maybe the 10man version. But 25man? I honestly don't think that top 50 will be taken until maybe next tier. Lei Shen is a brutal fight that will push your guild very hard, especially mechanic wise. One persons screwup can lead to a complete raidwipe.

I think we'll see around 7-10% clear it on 25man heroic, why? Tier 14 was 4,7% of 25man guilds to kill Sha of Fear HC, for a total of 237 guilds.

This tier I would say is going to be easier, and the nerfs have already started to come in, and if you're wondering what i'm refering to, It's the legendary meta gem, and come 5.3, several classes are getting buffed (Hunters, ret palas, enh shamans, ferals, WW monks), and ontop of that there is the upgrade system, which allows you no matter what to gain 16 ilvls each reset, instead of the 4 1/3ilvl you gained in T14 per week.

Ontop of that there is 3 less bosses, and I'm telling you that Ra-Den is gonna fall over like a little girl once people get to him, as with the increased gear and buffs people will have (including all meta gems), he will just die, the encounter isn't technicly challenging, it's one that is easy to overgear.

I'm not saying they're gonna be a joke, but certainly much easier than T14.

[Deleted]

I agree, it's not just 25 man guilds, it's everyone. It's just the grass is greener effect, nothing more. I can tell you firsthand that 10 mans are having similar problem. WHen a guild that existed since vanilla in one form or another and was together since TBC as one guild, guild that lived through muru, through a year of ICC and DS, through the whole cata without ever stopping, just falls apart in 2 weeks, without drama, without arguing, without any conflict... People just went away. Some to their servers or guild, but majority just stopped playing, without saying much. I don't know, something changed.

[Ethes]

Adding to this because it's related to the decline in available raiders as a whole: gear is a bitch this expansion. If you are not already in 515+ ilvl, you're essentially worthless when it comes to heroic progression, and if you're below 500 ilvl you're not killing normal Megaera. You do not go from LFR to normal of that tier, you MUST go back and do T14 content for better gear (heroic HoF/ToES drop 509!), and you definitely do not go from LFR to heroic. On top of that is the legendary quest progress, the other officers in my guild and I had to institute a policy that if someone isn't done with Test of Valor on that character yet, we have to decline their app immediately unless some outstanding circumstance makes them worthwhile. With how constrained the deadlines for progression are now, we can't afford to take anyone that won't be useful on progression for 4+ weeks, it's a waste of gear and it slows down our farm time if we have to bring them in. If you decided to switch mains between guilds or took a few months off, it's pretty much impossible for you to get into ToT heroic raiding at this point, there's just no time to catch someone up, especially since valor gear is 19 ilvls lower than heroic thunderforged. As such, recruiting is a lot harder now not because of a shortage of applicants, we still get a ton, but because any app has to have been consistently raiding for the past few months to even be considered, meaning the pool shrinks every time someone takes a break or decides to switch mains mid-expansion.

This is so much spot on! As someone who was elsewhere occupied when MoP was released I had to do massive catching up. Both on factions (Yay! 10 daily factions ...) and this stupid legendary quest chain. Nice and all, but its extremely punishing for someone who only started raiding again towards the end of tier 14. I don't want to pug old raids and I hate LFR as well. Yet I was in there every week not even to get the gear, but to farm those stupid sigils.

Raiding old content, so much fun! :S... Doing LFR of the same old content, even more fun ... :S
Thank god I actually finished that shit now!

[Summer]

There's more guilds LF people than people LF guilds. For 25 mans the temptation to break down is always there, for 10 mans it's go with what you have or call it a day :P My server hasn't lost guilds in this tier but was pretty ugly last tier :/

[Guruftw]

I blame LFR, less ppl playing normals = less ppl learing how to play and avoid stuff.

[Deleted]

I blame LFR, less ppl playing normals = less ppl learing how to play and avoid stuff.

Only 10% of the players raided before LFR... so no, this is wrong.

[Kapaya]

I think we'll see around 7-10% clear it on 25man heroic, why? Tier 14 was 4,7% of 25man guilds to kill Sha of Fear HC, for a total of 237 guilds.

This tier I would say is going to be easier, and the nerfs have already started to come in, and if you're wondering what i'm refering to, It's the legendary meta gem, and come 5.3, several classes are getting buffed (Hunters, ret palas, enh shamans, ferals, WW monks), and ontop of that there is the upgrade system, which allows you no matter what to gain 16 ilvls each reset, instead of the 4 1/3ilvl you gained in T14 per week.

Ontop of that there is 3 less bosses, and I'm telling you that Ra-Den is gonna fall over like a little girl once people get to him, as with the increased gear and buffs people will have (including all meta gems), he will just die, the encounter isn't technicly challenging, it's one that is easy to overgear.

I'm not saying they're gonna be a joke, but certainly much easier than T14.

Lei Shen is not a gear check. Unlike Sha, where you could DPS him down so fast that you didn't get a lot of adds, or adds dying fast, Lei Shen is a mechanic fight. Sha of Fear was never hard, it was simply a long boring fight with repeated mechanics over and over again. Many guilds below the top 50 will probably struggle with class comp and imunities to make the fight just a bit easier.

[Vantro]

I raided in 25's exclusively until MoP when I started a guild with a few friends and did 10's. We went 13/16H last tier and are currently 7/13H this tier. Honestly it wasn't until a couple weeks ago when I wished we were doing 25's instead. The gearing difference between the two makes 10m so much more frustrating. I realize that there are frustrations on both sides of this but until this week we only had two pieces of Conqueror drop. I'm STILL using a 502 shield because the loot tables are gigantic with only two pieces per boss, and I won't even start on the whole thunderforged side of things. From my perspective Blizzard made 25's far more attractive this tier that I don't think many guilds going from 25's to 10's will want to stay that way.

[Deleted]

I raided in 25's exclusively until MoP when I started a guild with a few friends and did 10's. We went 13/16H last tier and are currently 7/13H this tier. Honestly it wasn't until a couple weeks ago when I wished we were doing 25's instead. The gearing difference between the two makes 10m so much more frustrating. I realize that there are frustrations on both sides of this but until this week we only had two pieces of Conqueror drop. I'm STILL using a 502 shield because the loot tables are gigantic with only two pieces per boss, and I won't even start on the whole thunderforged side of things. From my perspective Blizzard made 25's far more attractive this tier that I don't think many guilds going from 25's to 10's will want to stay that way.

i totally agree with this, gearing up in 10 mans require a LOT of good rng for your guild, the guild im in is DE'ing so many items from 10m that its just unbelievable. i wish they would change it a bit tho, making it less rng, like giving the same amount of drops as 25m but only allowing a 10m guild to pick 2 items, will give you the versatility of loot in 25m but with the 10m limit, would make it a lot more enjoyable raiding, hell we have a guy who is still using ilvl 471 staff in ToT normal/heroic coz there has simply not been a staff drop for him since MSV. talk about bad rng. in terms of getting gear, 25's are a lot more desirable, takes a lot less time to gear up in 25's than 10's which is something a lot of 25 man guilds that downgrades to 10 mans doesnt take into account, ofc if you have the luck, it doesnt matter.

[Venant]

And how was farming ICC or DS for months any better? How is guilds downscaling to 10 man good for raiding? How is it a good thing for raiding that recruiting is harder than ever before? How is it good for raiding that it is far less rewarding to be in a guild now than during TBC and even WotLK?
How does doing three different difficulties not feel like you are farming content since you are doing the same instance over and over again?

Less broken, depending on how you look at it. I rather have some bugs and some inconvenience than be bored.

So your argument against current content is that you are bored, and therefore we should arbitrarily revert all of the 'progress' that we have made in the last 3 expansions. Nobody is specific about what was actually better in TBC, just the false equivalency of stating that 'well more people were joining WoW in TBC and therefore the expansion was superior!' You should consider the possibility that gamer expectations have changed in the last 5 years, its the same reason why you don't see people playing Half Life to enjoy the cutting edge 1999 graphics.

[Spiralphoenix]

Our guild just dropped to 10m a week ago. Unfortunately I'd lay the main culprit as server population, as we were Alliance and our servers Alliance pop was slowly decreasing to near nothing. Sure recruitment happens off server but it is far easier with a local pool of players to pull from where there is no cost to the potential recruit.

The week immediately following our last 25M raid, we killed 2 new heroics in a very short time, in a fairly thrown together raid (read: not the 10M core we intend to run with eventually).

Although I prefer 25, it's far more difficult to hold together a competent 25M roster. And we'd just had enough with fighting the dying raid format. Sort of when the game becomes more of a job than a game.

25M groups that are barely holding on, if you want it to keep going - try to understand what your guild leaders / officers need to go through, and help with recruitment. At this point it almost needs to be a full guild effort (or a few people with a lot of free time) for groups like this to survive. Just my advice.

[Deleted]

It does seem that 25man raids are under strain - since the raid has quite mechanic-heavy encounters, it's easy for those few players to screw you over on progression

Clearly, you haven't tried Ji-Kun 25man heroic. It was a real pain to learn. We have tried different tactics and assignments until we found out the way that suited our raiders. While we were doing that (and since we only raid 10hrs/week, that cost us a lot of raiding time), two 10man guilds on our realm got ahead in progress by killing Ji-kun 10hc. And those guilds were behind the whole time during progression.
I understand what OP is talking about, it can be frustrating, but people just have to ignore all that 10man crap and get over it. In this tier, 10 and 25 really different. Sometimes we finish clearing the instance on 10man and laugh at the difficulty. Our fastest Twins kill was 8:13 on 25man and 7:08 on 10man (a whole minute difference). As for Lei Shen, I think we had fastest 10man kill sub-8 minutes and our fastest 25man was 10:13 (so, more than 2 minutes difference). Bosses die so much faster on 10man, it's not even fun.

Please regale us with further tales of how you killed other fights faster on 10man (normal, not tuned with full buffs in mind), with what are probably your stronger dps compared to 25man where you highly likely have 'dead weight' dps (i.e. people who don't do their share). What did you expect to happen?

Truly a riveting read chap