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  1. #121
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I have to agree with the OP about semi-hardcore 25-mans being difficult. I've led semi-core 25-mans since BC, and I called it quits early this year. Most of the semi-core player base seems to have moved on to 10-man raids. It was quite a struggle to keep a decent roster going for a guild with a semi-core attitude (fairly progression-oriented but a bit more casual.. usually aiming to have "most" HM content cleared by the next patch but not necessarily all).
    Here's the thing, though... clearing most heroic content is decidely hardcore from the perspective of most of the raiding community. YOu can't sit on the fence. Either be hardcore and communicate that ('we're a heroic progression guild') or raid normals. If you want to say "we're a heroic progression guild, but we're going to limit raids to 3x a week" that's fine. It communicates that you aren't consumed by raiding, but that you still have high expectations.

    TLDR: The issue isn't the hardcore part. It's the Semi- part.

  2. #122
    We're a heroic progression guild that limits raids to 3x a week. We clear everything on heroic before the next tier comes out, sometimes fairly early, sometimes at the last second, depending on the tier (we got H-Sha the week before 5.2 came out). I don't think we call ourselves semi-hardcore, but we definitely don't take breaks in our 4 hour raids, we show up on time or early, prepared with all raid mats, and ready to pull trash at raidtime. I agree that it's an attitude, I don't think any of our raiders would consider themselves "semi-hardcore," just hardcore-limited-by-time.

    The problem with being "semi-hardcore" is the definition seems to accept bad behavior. To be successful (on the heroic level, at least) in 2-3 nights a week, you need to have a hardcore attitude for the limited time you have. Our raid team is filled with working professionals with spouses and kids who used to not only raid 40s 25+ hours a week back in the day, but raided in EQ (which seemed to many of us to be a full time job in college). But for 3 nights a week, 4 hours per night, we're locked and loaded, and we do fine.

    Our problems start when we have someone leave because they're having a kid, or they got promoted at work, and we have to recruit people who think they're heroic hardcore progression raiders because they killed H-Madness sometime in the summer of 2011.

  3. #123
    It seems like if you want to be a hardcore raider you should move to Europe, from doing a quick count only 28 out of the top 100 guilds are in the US. Is part of the problem that the raiding scene simply sucks in the US? I know that this is an international forum, but the majority of the complaint threads I read on here are written by US players.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
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  4. #124
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    It seems like if you want to be a hardcore raider you should move to Europe, from doing a quick count only 28 out of the top 100 guilds are in the US. Is part of the problem that the raiding scene simply sucks in the US? I know that this is an international forum, but the majority of the complaint threads I read on here are written by US players.
    But again, we're talking the next rung down - the 101-1000th guilds. The people who, like eschat's guild, want to clear 25H during the current patch but aren't interested in competing for regional firsts.

    Interestingly, even GC admits there aren't really 25N guilds. Now, if 25 man was a popular format, wouldn't we expect that there would be a range of difficulties represented? What this means to me is that 25 is the best format for doing heroics, but that as a format, it's not attractive unless you need all of the buffs and advantages the format brings that makes it attractive to heroic progression guilds.

  5. #125
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    The actual gear advantage in 25 man mostly effects the core members of the raid - i.e. Tanks and Healers, and maybe your best DPS. 10 man can be hit hard with no gear at all dropping for your tanks for ages so they are getting pounded into the ground later on in the dungeon. I remember in Wrath a lot of tanks were stuck with the crafted 200 ilevel shield until Icecrown!
    idd, and it is this that i want to avoid and changed for 10 mans, more loot dropping, means less overall RNG for 25 mans, less loot dropping, means more overall RNG for 10 mans and it is in large part due to the severely bloated loot table each boss has. the guild im in still has a caster dps using a blue ilvl 471 staff coz there hasnt been a staff drop all through t14 and this far into t15. i can understand that they have the amount of loot drop from each boss, but that is only a viable option if the loot tables werent so damn bloated, so either increase the amount of loot dropping for each boss in 10 mans, but only allowing you to pick 2 of those items(in this case the same amount of loot as in 25 mans would drop but a 10 man raid would only be able to pick 2 items) or great decrease the loot table of bosses, which lowers the RNG on loot.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    and if loot is all you care about in raiding then i don't know what to tell you, you probably shouldn't be raiding. all loot does is make farm night go faster.
    Strawmanning me, huh? Okay. Let's bite back.

    Go clear Heroic ToT in blue gear. If the gear doesn't matter then you should be able to do it just fine.

    Oh wait, you can't. Gear is required, at least for the vast majority of people, in order to progress further into the raid. And if your tank can't take the hits, and your healers are running OOM despite perfect mana conservation, then you don't have the gear for it and thus can't progress.

    And say whatever you like, the chances of a tank getting gear is much higher in 25 man raids. That's undeniable, simply due to 3 more items dropping while the number of people needing such items remains the same. Basic probability.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 01:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    idd, and it is this that i want to avoid and changed for 10 mans, more loot dropping, means less overall RNG for 25 mans, less loot dropping, means more overall RNG for 10 mans and it is in large part due to the severely bloated loot table each boss has. the guild im in still has a caster dps using a blue ilvl 471 staff coz there hasnt been a staff drop all through t14 and this far into t15. i can understand that they have the amount of loot drop from each boss, but that is only a viable option if the loot tables werent so damn bloated, so either increase the amount of loot dropping for each boss in 10 mans, but only allowing you to pick 2 of those items(in this case the same amount of loot as in 25 mans would drop but a 10 man raid would only be able to pick 2 items) or great decrease the loot table of bosses, which lowers the RNG on loot.
    I'd like there to be less 'worthless drops' in 10 man. Having selectable loot drops like you said would certainly help - means those Int Plate Bracers that dropped for the 5th week in a row won't just be sharded again, for example!

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Strawmanning me, huh? Okay. Let's bite back.

    Go clear Heroic ToT in blue gear. If the gear doesn't matter then you should be able to do it just fine.

    Oh wait, you can't. Gear is required, at least for the vast majority of people, in order to progress further into the raid. And if your tank can't take the hits, and your healers are running OOM despite perfect mana conservation, then you don't have the gear for it and thus can't progress.

    And say whatever you like, the chances of a tank getting gear is much higher in 25 man raids. That's undeniable, simply due to 3 more items dropping while the number of people needing such items remains the same. Basic probability.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 01:08 AM ----------



    I'd like there to be less 'worthless drops' in 10 man. Having selectable loot drops like you said would certainly help - means those Int Plate Bracers that dropped for the 5th week in a row won't just be sharded again, for example!
    i cleared heroic MV with a blue weapon, didn't get an epic till we were well into ToES progression. our tank used a pvp weapon for the entire tier. we never saw the dps pants off will. this is with full clears every week and raid finder. if my raid group full of old retired former hardcore raiders with poor eyesight and kids on their laps can clear content reliably with substandard gear, you young whippersnappers definitely must be able to

    10 mans keep talking about all this useless stuff that drops in their raids, you know what? that shit is just as useless in a 25 man, and it drops just as much. the 2 spell plate chests that drop off jin'rohk every week? completely wasted. the spell leeather that drops off horridon every week? sharded. the badly itemized plate bracers off durumu? laughed at and given to a hunter as a joke. we've been killing this for how many weeks and my raid still only has one person on the conq token with a full 4 set because they don't drop.

    bad loot rng happens to both formats. and you can't say 25s are easier because they have more loot because they don't have more loot.

    and when it comes down to it

    loot is not why we raid.
    if loot is all you care about then you need to reevaluate a lot of things in your personality.

    we raid to solve problems and work together as a team. loot is just a pretty thing we get rewarded with if we are capable of doing those things successfully.

    every time i see 10 man raiders complaining about their loot i think it sounds like people who get one heroic 10 man kill, fail to get the piece they want and they cry about it because they are unlikely to repeat that kill. and they put the blame on 25s because 25 mans, get one piece of loot more, do you know what an infinitesimal difference that makes?

    loot is not why we raid, and if you are capable of clearing bosses regularly and reliably you will get your item, stop crying about it.
    Last edited by kosechi; 2013-05-15 at 04:22 AM.
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  8. #128
    guild leader of a normal raiding guild for the last 8 years. This expansion has been the worst expansion in terms of recruitment,morale, and just getting people to stay interested. Fights like Tortos,Durumu make your average raider impossible to take so its hard to fill in 1 or 2 slots if someone else can't make it. LFR also feels pretty much required to do in order to progress and that just adds to the burn out of doing the same content over and over.

  9. #129
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    Random dribble
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your arguement is that 1 or 2 items OUT OF 6 gets DEd? Try downing new progression bosses to have 100% of the loot DEd or gone to off-spec.

    It's so hard to not be a prick on these forums when you see SOOO MANY people here dribble and spread false information.

  10. #130
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    Our guild just moved from 10's to 25, we had 2 raid grps and they are doing fine, but the trials we need to constantly replace and the tactic/our encounter plans never get to sink in the new players when we already gotta replace them. (low dps or just bad)

    Finding reliable, good players is the key and challenge of 25man, and then it takes a couple lockouts even after you get all 25 to let stuff sink in their brain.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimitzles View Post
    The addon your talking about is only for 10man hc.
    I find it quite weird that most of my guild members used the addon for our first 25HC kill if it doesn't exist. Stole it from Envy, maybe it didn't release on Curse? My bad in that case.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post


    Get rid of LFR since it's clearly a failed experiment. Even with a full explanation on some fights you need multiple stacks of determination to carry those who refuse to listen to directions. If they have to keep buffing us until we finally kill the thing then it's not very productive or enjoyable. I've had more than one 3 boss LFR take in excess of 2 hours to complete on top of a 30 min queue to get in. Compare that to a GDKP run with geared mains and you begin to ask if this is really the best system to let players see content.
    U must have had really unlucky run - most lfr i do one shots eveyrthing or worst case scenario if too many peopel akf take 1 stack of determination. Also lfr clearly is a huge succes in eye of blizzard if so big % of players are using it comapred to normal/HC mode. What more lfr could have somethign to do with causal normal raiding guilds decline not semi-hardcore- people are just growing older and geting bored with raiding thats all - and game is growing older and odler with each year ><
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-05-15 at 11:15 AM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Xploits View Post
    You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your arguement is that 1 or 2 items OUT OF 6 gets DEd? Try downing new progression bosses to have 100% of the loot DEd or gone to off-spec.

    It's so hard to not be a prick on these forums when you see SOOO MANY people here dribble and spread false information.
    its so hard not to be a prick when i see entitled casuals in 10 mans crying about loot.

    loot. is not. why we raid.
    get that into your head.


    i could be really nasty and say you don't need more loot because you are doing neutered easy content.

    when it comes down to it, loot dosn't solve anything. and throwing loot at 25s doesn't make them more popular, even if the increased loot does make them easier (it doesn't)

    10s keep going on about how they don't want to be forced to do 25s for progression. well you know what? i don't want to be forced to do 10s for progression because 25s are dying.
    Last edited by kosechi; 2013-05-15 at 02:16 PM.
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  14. #134
    I am Murloc!
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    Okay, I admit it. On every single heroic 25 kill we have at least 4 Thunderforge items and at least 5 items go to main specs. Because of that, there are dozens of applications and people begging for an invite, because our average ilvl is +20 when compared to 10 man guilds.

    Oh wait, it's all bullshit. We are the last 25 man guild left on the realm, recruitment is a nightmare, Thunderforged accomplished exactly nothing and no one gives a crap about 6 items vs 5. All "25 semi-hardcore guilds" went 10 man either in Cataclysm or MoP and there's exactly zero chance of anyone forming a new one.

    Admitedly, my guild is more than just "semi-hardcore", but I've seen those guilds collapse and give up on 25 mans altogether. We are still going, but at some point you have to ask yourself "Am I raiding Bosses or Excel spreadsheets?". Ji'kun Heroic is epitome of that, where you "win" the fight by spending 2 hours preparing rotations and then killing the boss. Giant macros with raid cooldowns for majority of bosses. Logistic issues. Encounter difficulty might be similar, but organizing some shit gets really annoying in 25 man. Few times when we raided 10 man due to holiday, it was almost relaxing, with only few people to watch for, instead of 20+. (not getting into "easier/harder" debate here, just saying this from raid leading POV)

    Either way, in MoP, nothing changed, nothing improved and I'm supposed to be happy with random Thunderforged items. Thanks Blizz, it helped *so* much.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2013-05-15 at 03:23 PM.

  15. #135
    I'm leading a semi-hardcore 25 man guild for about 6 years now orso. Currently raiding 4 days a week and just killed tortos HC last week. In my eyes you really dont need 25 top-notch players to raid heroic content. What you need is reliable players. If you manage to keep most of your raiding team together for a full patch, gear (and slight difficulty adjustments) will do the rest for you and will ensure you will keep progressing. I also seen in the past that the only time we stopped progressing were those times we lacked enough people to raid 4 days a week.

    We have some great players (we had people ranking #1 world on HC horridon last week) but the difference between our best and worse dps (and healer) are huge. There are many fights where 1 rogue does 50% more damage then another rogue, or where 1 warlock does 50% more damage then another. So in my eyes your statement that you cannot carry anyone in 25man HC is false. You do not have to play your class perfectly to beat heroic content, 'decent' is good enough after obtaining proper gear (522++). You can affort to loose a few people that stand in fire, even in heroic modes. You can finish Jin'rokh heroic25 with 10 players while 15 died in the storm. You can do Horridon when about 5 people died from poison pools/sand traps/frozen orbs/double swipe/add. Tortos can be killed with just 1 pro kicker and 1 pro kite monk (for everyone else the fight is the exact same as normal mode). So no, heroic modes arnt as unforgiving as you make them be. There is only 1 thing you need, reliable players, look for those and you're set.

  16. #136
    Agree ^^.
    I've been struggling for progress this Xpac because almost every single guild raid I've done has needed 1-2 pugs because people just aren't willing to stick around. I know the people who come and go have the skill (for the most part), but keeping a stable roster has become the hardest part of this game lately, at least for us. Problem is, people don't want to wait around while new recruits are geared and trained, so they leave as well, and it's bit of a vicious cycle.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    As someone who's looking for a new guild due to similar problems in people are posting about in this thread, I've noticed that when you get past a certain mark, it becomes one giant circle jerk, especially with guilds saying "accepting exceptional players" etc.

    Of the two I've applied to so far that suit me, they were either asking for more progress (Held back by my currents guild situation) or aren't recruiting my class/spec from which I've linked logs where I'm outperforming their own players of the same class/spec with less gear

    Ah well, let the circle jerk continue!

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by invizion View Post
    As someone who's looking for a new guild due to similar problems in people are posting about in this thread, I've noticed that when you get past a certain mark, it becomes one giant circle jerk, especially with guilds saying "accepting exceptional players" etc.

    Of the two I've applied to so far that suit me, they were either asking for more progress (Held back by my currents guild situation) or aren't recruiting my class/spec from which I've linked logs where I'm outperforming their own players of the same class/spec with less gear

    Ah well, let the circle jerk continue!
    Eh what.

    You know, some guilds actually like their members, and that member is more than numbers on a dps meter.

    They also might "trust" those players, and need something other than can you provide at that time.

  19. #139
    Deleted
    just keep going. most bosses are way easier in 25m hardmode as u can simply bypass lots of mechanics and stuff.
    besides, getting gear in 25m is less luck dependant and thus faster. (and thanks to thunderforged items, you even get better gear way faster as well).


    long story short: overall 25m has an easier time. keep pushing and you will be rewarded.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faylo View Post
    Eh what.

    You know, some guilds actually like their members, and that member is more than numbers on a dps meter.

    They also might "trust" those players, and need something other than can you provide at that time.
    I'd understand that if it were social/non progression guilds I'm applying to

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