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  1. #21
    Well, the only cooldown we really need is a raid-wide utility cooldown so we can actually help out.

  2. #22
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twistwarp View Post
    Well, the only cooldown we really need is a raid-wide utility cooldown so we can actually help out.
    TBH we actually don't need a raid cooldown, we just need Raid utility.

    So because Warlocks have Soulwell...

    Mana Well
    120 second (2 minute) cooldown

    Creates a well filled with Mana Gems. Players in your party or raid may click the well to create a Mana Gem.

    Mana Gem: Restores 10% of your maximum mana. 2 minute cooldown. 3 charges.


    I mean, Druids have Innervate even as Feral/Guardian. Why can't we get Mana Well?

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    TBH we actually don't need a raid cooldown, we just need Raid utility.

    So because Warlocks have Soulwell...

    Mana Well
    120 second (2 minute) cooldown

    Creates a well filled with Mana Gems. Players in your party or raid may click the well to create a Mana Gem.

    Mana Gem: Restores 10% of your maximum mana. 2 minute cooldown. 3 charges.


    I mean, Druids have Innervate even as Feral/Guardian. Why can't we get Mana Well?
    Sounds like a great idea, but why not spice it up and make it like Lightwell and make it so it gives mana to the person who clicks it or to the person with the least mana.

    and even tho druids have innervate and locks have soulwell, they also have the portal and stampeding roar, which makes us lack even more.
    Last edited by Twistwarp; 2013-05-14 at 12:23 AM.

  4. #24
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twistwarp View Post
    Sounds like a great idea, but why not spice it up and make it like Lightwell and make it so it gives mana to the person who clicks it or to the person with the least mana.

    and even tho druids have innervate and locks have soulwell, they also have the portal and stampeding roar, which makes us even lack more.
    Eh, no. No one would click it.

    Oh right, true. We have Heroism/Bloodlust, but that doesn't count because having multiple Shamans/Mages doesn't give each one a cooldown, like multiple portals and roars.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  5. #25
    Well back to damage cooldowns, why not bring our very old combust back as another cd, where you get 3 charges and everytime you crit you remove 1 charge, but when you dont crit it increases your crit chance!

  6. #26
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twistwarp View Post
    Well back to damage cooldowns, why not bring our very old combust back as another cd, where you get 3 charges and everytime you crit you remove 1 charge, but when you dont crit it increases your crit chance!
    More RNG to the RNG fire. Guaranteed criticals is what eliminates a layer of RNG. RNG criticals do not.

    Not to mention how garbage old Combustion was, especially when our crit levels are at 45-50% atm.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  7. #27
    There is only one CD based class shaman, lets leave it at that . Plus Alter Time and Mirror Images (not alot but there) are CDs. They may be part of the rotation, but they are all CDs. Every class has rotational CDs, and just like a mage's Alter Time they are all used at optimal times to get the most out of them.

    A raid utility CD though would be nice that is unique to the class of course.

  8. #28
    Well, you have a point - Fire could use some kind of cooldown to compliment Fireballing. Or maybe additional mechanics.

    Critical Mass (passive) - every Fireball, Pyroblast, Scorch or Frostfire Bolt that doesn't deal critical damage adds 5% chance to critically strike. The effect is removed upon critical strike.

    World in Flames - your Fireball, Pyroblast, Scorch and Frostfire Bolt spells explode on impact, dealing 50% their damage to all targets within 10 yards, off the gcd, 15 sec duration, 1 min cooldown.

    Soul of a Phoenix - when reduced to 0% health the mage gains Hot Streak and bursts up in flames, becoming immune to CC, silence and dispels for 3 seconds. If the next Pyroblast! deals critical damage, the mage will be restored to 30% of max health. Cannot occur more than once per 1.5 minutes.

    Fiery Payback (passive) - reflects the spell that would have dealt fatal damage to the mage and heals the mage for 20% max health, the effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 min.

    Living Bomb - the target becomes a Living Bomb, taking X Fire damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or the target dies, it explodes to deal an additional Y Fire damage to all enemies within 10 yards. Limit 3 targets. This spell has a 1.0 sec global cooldown. Living Bomb explodes for double damage if dispelled.

    Blastwave - a blast wave radiates from the mage, dealing X damage to all targets, knocking them back and dazing for 3 seconds, 30 sec cooldown (like Halo, but 20 yards distance).

    Inferno Blast - blasts the enemy for X Fire damage, and is guaranteed to critical strike. Upon impact, it spreads any Pyroblast, Ignite, and Combustion effects to all nearby enemy targets and spreads Living Bomb to nearby 2 enemy targets within 10 yards. Replaces Fire Blast.

  9. #29
    High Overlord Vaelkder's Avatar
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    Dragon, I've learned a LOT by reading your posts in so many of the Forum Topics (except for the reason as to why you're banned from Blizzard Forums... ), and I have to say that your ideas are amazing.

    Honestly, I detest playing Fire Spec because I am AWFUL at it, regardless of the hours spent in LFRs, LFDs and at the practice dummies, trying to perfect my rotations (I have the worst RNG luck of anyone I've ever seen; I had a ten-minute run at the dummies yesterday and the highest Ignite was 31K), but, reading your posts and seeing your ideas and thoughts here, I have come to the conclusion that you and a lot of other people are one of the reasons that I have been playing WoW.

    I hope that you'll continue to contribute, and that others, such as the Moderators and ZomgDPS will make my WoW experiences fun.

    Thank you!

  10. #30
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Well, you have a point - Fire could use some kind of cooldown to compliment Fireballing. Or maybe additional mechanics.

    Critical Mass (passive) - every Fireball, Pyroblast, Scorch or Frostfire Bolt that doesn't deal critical damage adds 5% chance to critically strike. The effect is removed upon critical strike.
    Like it as a passive. Old Combustion had a good idea, but was horrible as a cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    World in Flames - your Fireball, Pyroblast, Scorch and Frostfire Bolt spells explode on impact, dealing 50% their damage to all targets within 10 yards, off the gcd, 15 sec duration, 1 min cooldown.
    Would be fun to have an AoE cooldown! Also make sure to have Ragnaros's graphic, if you're going to name it after that

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Soul of a Phoenix - when reduced to 0% health the mage gains Hot Streak and bursts up in flames, becoming immune to CC, silence and dispels for 3 seconds. If the next Pyroblast! deals critical damage, the mage will be restored to 30% of max health. Cannot occur more than once per 1.5 minutes.
    Bit OP for a 90s cooldown assuming it crits. Bit UP for a 90s cooldown assuming it fails to crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Fiery Payback (passive) - reflects the spell that would have dealt fatal damage to the mage and heals the mage for 20% max health, the effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 min.
    Deflect might be a bit better. A full reflect might be too powerful. Also, what about non-spell based lethal hits, like physical attacks or arrows from a Hunter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Living Bomb - the target becomes a Living Bomb, taking X Fire damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or the target dies, it explodes to deal an additional Y Fire damage to all enemies within 10 yards. Limit 3 targets. This spell has a 1.0 sec global cooldown. Living Bomb explodes for double damage if dispelled.
    Would love the double damage on dispel. We do need some level of dispel protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Blastwave - a blast wave radiates from the mage, dealing X damage to all targets, knocking them back and dazing for 3 seconds, 30 sec cooldown (like Halo, but 20 yards distance).
    Yes please. Omg would be great. I totally miss Blast Wave and not this shitty daze on Flamestrike bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    Inferno Blast - blasts the enemy for X Fire damage, and is guaranteed to critical strike. Upon impact, it spreads any Pyroblast, Ignite, and Combustion effects to all nearby enemy targets and spreads Living Bomb to nearby 2 enemy targets within 10 yards. Replaces Fire Blast.
    Never understood why they removed our only AoE and turned it into a cleave. Would be nice to have this back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelkder View Post
    Dragon, I've learned a LOT by reading your posts in so many of the Forum Topics (except for the reason as to why you're banned from Blizzard Forums... ), and I have to say that your ideas are amazing.
    *Blush* Well thank you, even though you're a minority about those feelings

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelkder View Post
    Honestly, I detest playing Fire Spec because I am AWFUL at it, regardless of the hours spent in LFRs, LFDs and at the practice dummies, trying to perfect my rotations (I have the worst RNG luck of anyone I've ever seen; I had a ten-minute run at the dummies yesterday and the highest Ignite was 31K), but, reading your posts and seeing your ideas and thoughts here, I have come to the conclusion that you and a lot of other people are one of the reasons that I have been playing WoW.

    I hope that you'll continue to contribute, and that others, such as the Moderators and ZomgDPS will make my WoW experiences fun.

    Thank you!
    I detest Fire when I get shit RNG. I'll do the EXACT same thing and end up with 80k instead of 120-160k. Granted, if you feel that you just don't know how to play it, I wouldn't mind giving you a crash course. Hell, it's how I improved from T14 (as I was shit when the expansion started).

    Well thanks I do appreciate the positive feedback even if everyone else here hates my guts ;_;

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Originally Posted by Nightfall
    Fiery Payback (passive) - reflects the spell that would have dealt fatal damage to the mage and heals the mage for 20% max health, the effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 min.
    Deflect might be a bit better. A full reflect might be too powerful. Also, what about non-spell based lethal hits, like physical attacks or arrows from a Hunter?
    Yeah, at first I wanted this passive reflect the fatal damaging spell or to negate the incoming fatal blow and disarm the enemy if the damage is not spell-based. And then heal for 20% max health. But any way I tried to put it, the wording was too clunky, so I nerfed the spell. =)

    If Fiery Payback is going to just deflect lethal damage, then it's not much of a payback. The idea is like a WotLK talent - last attempt to turn the tables. Maybe it could go like this:

    Fiery Payback (passive) - deflects the damaging blow that would've killed you, reduces incoming damage by 90% for 1.5 seconds and grants Hot Streak that will heal you for 100% of damage caused. The effect cannot occur more than once per 1.5 min.

    Or:


    Fiery Payback (passive) - envelops the mage in fire shield that absorbs the damaging blow that would've killed you, reduces incoming damage by 90% for 1.5 seconds and grants Hot Streak that will have a 100% chance to critical strike and will deal additional overkill damage. (the excessive damage the fatal ability would have caused). The effect cannot occur more than once per 1.5 min.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-05-14 at 02:56 AM.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Fire's version of Deep Freeze...

    Deep Fry! The true All-American cooldown


  13. #33
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Fire's version of Deep Freeze...
    Deep Fry! The true All-American cooldown
    Haha Epic!! :P

    I would also like to see some kind of raid utility thing going on for mages Will think about this, got college now ^^;

    Nimryas - EU-Kazzak ~ My youtube channel

  14. #34
    I was very SAAAAAD when Blizzard removed Deep Freeze ability to hit if target is immune to stuns. Miss heavy hits of DF so much ;'-(
    But this wont happen again - seems Blizzard really dislike the idea of diversity of pve and pve aspects.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    "Lots of DPS cooldowns"... We have... None.

    - Mirror Image is barely a cooldown (and some of you guys are aware of my take on that already... >.>)
    - Alter Time is used for Combustion with Hot Streaks
    - PoM is a talent choice and is again, used for Combustion in conjunction with Alter Time
    - Combustion isn't a 'cooldown', it's part of our rotation

    Honestly, we don't have ANY cooldowns, so "lots" is a pretty funny word to use.

    I will admit that I dislike a lot of cooldowns too, but again, we don't have any. I'm just asking for A cooldown here.
    Go play a hunter... Blizzard took all the damage out of their normal spells, and put them into cds. So, for instance, a survival hunter now has a rotation which includes the following spells.
    1. Hunter's Mark
    2. Serpent Sting
    3. Black Arrow (which is arguably a cd)
    4. Explosive Shot (also arguably a cd)
    5. Arcane Shot to dump focus
    6. Steady shot to build focus
    7. Rapid Fire
    8. Stampede
    9. Murder of Crows or other talent from that tier
    10. Glaive Toss or other talent from that tier
    11. Dire beast, or other talent from that tier
    12. Readiness which resets most of the CDs


    Hunter's have SO many "cds" that none of them are especially powerful. In all reality, any cd is part of a rotation on a larger scale. You can't sit on them for long before you have wasted an opportunity to use it again later in the fight.

    Quite frankly I am fine with the amount of CD's that fire mages DO have. Sure alter time is used for combust, but go look at the combust thread and see how much larger of ignites people can get with alter time than without. What is wrong with a cd buffing another cd with proper use? Same goes for pom.

    The funny thing about mirror images is that in ICC (I think?), mirror images buffed normal damage and people complained that it was suppose to be used for a threat dump, not to buff damage. In all fairness, threat is close to a non-issue this day of age, but it wasn't that big of a deal back then either.

    Fire mages have something else to deal with besides an over-abundance of cds like hunters have. It's called RNG. Can you capture trinket procs, build a good ignite, and combust at the right time, and spread it to all the mobs you need to, while still keeping nether tempest and tier 90 buff up. Part of this is luck, but it also takes a good bit of micro-management (council of elders, tortos, horridon, heroic twins for some examples).

    It's my personal opinion that adding even more CD's into this would make fire a nightmare.

    At the end of the day you have to remember one thing, and that is balance. To me there are two things that contribute to dps, rotation and cool downs. If you want to add more cool downs to a class, you have to take damage out of the rotation. I personally think that fireball and pyro already hit like wet noodles, so I would be against taking damage away from them to add more buttons to my bar. You could say, well we will just take a little bit of damage out of the rotation to make a cd. Well then the cd is gonna hit like shit and you all will complain about it like mirror images.

    I am not saying your ideas for cool downs aren't cool. There are definitely some awesome ideas, you just have to also think about the opportunity cost of having something like that.

    Just my 2 cents.

  16. #36
    High Overlord Vaelkder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dementor View Post
    Go play a hunter... Blizzard took all the damage out of their normal spells, and put them into cds. So, for instance, a survival hunter now has a rotation which includes the following spells.
    1. Hunter's Mark
    2. Serpent Sting
    3. Black Arrow (which is arguably a cd)
    4. Explosive Shot (also arguably a cd)
    5. Arcane Shot to dump focus
    6. Steady shot to build focus
    7. Rapid Fire
    8. Stampede
    9. Murder of Crows or other talent from that tier
    10. Glaive Toss or other talent from that tier
    11. Dire beast, or other talent from that tier
    12. Readiness which resets most of the CDs


    Hunter's have SO many "cds" that none of them are especially powerful. In all reality, any cd is part of a rotation on a larger scale. You can't sit on them for long before you have wasted an opportunity to use it again later in the fight.

    Quite frankly I am fine with the amount of CD's that fire mages DO have. Sure alter time is used for combust, but go look at the combust thread and see how much larger of ignites people can get with alter time than without. What is wrong with a cd buffing another cd with proper use? Same goes for pom.

    The funny thing about mirror images is that in ICC (I think?), mirror images buffed normal damage and people complained that it was suppose to be used for a threat dump, not to buff damage. In all fairness, threat is close to a non-issue this day of age, but it wasn't that big of a deal back then either.

    Fire mages have something else to deal with besides an over-abundance of cds like hunters have. It's called RNG. Can you capture trinket procs, build a good ignite, and combust at the right time, and spread it to all the mobs you need to, while still keeping nether tempest and tier 90 buff up. Part of this is luck, but it also takes a good bit of micro-management (council of elders, tortos, horridon, heroic twins for some examples).

    It's my personal opinion that adding even more CD's into this would make fire a nightmare.

    At the end of the day you have to remember one thing, and that is balance. To me there are two things that contribute to dps, rotation and cool downs. If you want to add more cool downs to a class, you have to take damage out of the rotation. I personally think that fireball and pyro already hit like wet noodles, so I would be against taking damage away from them to add more buttons to my bar. You could say, well we will just take a little bit of damage out of the rotation to make a cd. Well then the cd is gonna hit like shit and you all will complain about it like mirror images.

    I am not saying your ideas for cool downs aren't cool. There are definitely some awesome ideas, you just have to also think about the opportunity cost of having something like that.

    Just my 2 cents.

    I think that I must have missed something here. I didn't know that the topic was comparing apples and beluga caviar...

    All things considered, as I have only been aware of World of Warcraft since the end of Cataclysm, and have been playing for even less time, I have nothing more than mild curiosity in what went on in Vanilla, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King and anything else in the past. It's fascinating to hear about from the people who were there, but it has NEVER been more than a curiosity to me, as I am concerned with the Mage Spec of TODAY.

    It's difficult enough to try to learn how to manage a Fire Mage which is so heavily RNG-oreiented that a goodly percentage of play ends up being pure unadulterated LUCK, without having to suffer through Tales of the Deep Dark Past being maundered on by someone who isn't playing Fire Mage. It's wonderful that you were there, but what on earth does a Hunter Class have to do with Fire Mage? The problem is that IN THE HERE AND NOW the Fire Mage, as well as Arcane and Frost Specs, happens to be a bad amalgamation of leftover ideas and, as such, should be completely re-thought and gone over with a fine-toothed comb. This, I believe, is what this Forum Topic is addressing, and there are some amazing ideas presented here.

    Please don't muddy the waters with non-topic analogies, as they don't help people like myself who are trying to learn and to expand their experience with their chosen Class/Spec.

    Thank you



  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Love that unique design you got there, but hate the name



    "Lots of DPS cooldowns"... We have... None.

    - Mirror Image is barely a cooldown (and some of you guys are aware of my take on that already... >.>)
    - Alter Time is used for Combustion with Hot Streaks
    - PoM is a talent choice and is again, used for Combustion in conjunction with Alter Time
    - Combustion isn't a 'cooldown', it's part of our rotation

    Honestly, we don't have ANY cooldowns, so "lots" is a pretty funny word to use.


    I will admit that I dislike a lot of cooldowns too, but again, we don't have any. I'm just asking for A cooldown here.



    Okay, and when things move away from Orb, the spell is instantly useless. I just really, really, disliked it. I'm not a big fan of Frozen Orb either, but at least it's cooler and gives a FoF proc.


    Update: Just added "Great Balls of Fire" to the OP. It's a cooldown meant to purely boost Fireball's DPET.
    Never said fire mages have a lot of DPS CDs. I was referring to most DPS classes in MoP nowadays where nearly everyone has an IWIN button.

    As for DPS cds, I reckon it'd be nicer to have some sort of stat increasing CD to help line up a combustion (i.e haste cd like icy veins, or a crit cd).

  18. #38
    Think of it this way.

    Would you rather have 3 small dps CDs that increase dps or 1 major CD?

    Imo Combustion is the ultimate CD. While it sucks if something goes wrong or the stars don't align, but when pulled off correctly it really feels worth it.

    Isn't that what you want in a CD? Something that is game changing and amazing or just something that slightly increases your dps for x seconds.

    As a raiding Frost Mage I see the benefit of smaller lesser CDs as I am able to perform well on every pull and only relying on "lucky" trinket and meta procs.
    Our Fire Mage isn't as consistent but when the stars align it is amazing what Combustion can do. Obviously as his gear gets better his RNG will start to create great Combustions more often.

    But I agree with all of you that Mages could use some loving from Blizzard. A nice class revamp similar to warlocks would be welcome. But until then I will still enjoy doing what I do best.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelkder View Post
    Please don't muddy the waters with non-topic analogies, as they don't help people like myself who are trying to learn and to expand their experience with their chosen Class/Spec.
    You clearly did miss the point. In order to understand the PRESENT, you have to look to the PAST. Hunters, in cata, had few cooldowns, for instance survival's only cooldowns were rapid fire and a pet's ability to increase AP. Hunter's complained about this and got a whole bunch of cooldowns at the expensive of their rotational damage. If you played a hunter during 4.3 (dragon soul) ---> 5.0 (pre-expansion patch) you would understand what I am saying. I used to main a hunter. I switched to my mage because of this.

    To me the op said that the current rotation was boring... not that the whole class needed a revamp. I was just saying if you add more cooldowns to a class, you have to nerf the damage of the rotation, which I think is a bad opportunity cost.

    Everyone keeps talking about how awesome warlocks are. What's awesome about them? They don't have more cd's than us. They have to manage 2 resource systems, which I find not enjoyable. They got green fire, but who cares. If warlocks weren't doing great dps, do you think people would still think they were awesome?

    Mage's don't need a revamp, at most they need more aoe (getting addressed in 5.3), frost and arcane need a bit of mobility, and some kind of raid utility.

  20. #40
    High Overlord Bopcommander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    [Edit] Here's our raid utility:

    Mana Well
    120 second (2 minute) cooldown

    Creates a well filled with Mana Gems. Players in your party or raid may click the well to create a Mana Gem.
    Mana Gem: Restores 10% of your maximum mana. 2 minute cooldown. 3 charges.


    - Warlocks have Soul Well. Why can't we have Mana Well?
    - It's not all that powerful, and you could even nerf it to restore 5% mana if it was too strong.
    - There's already plenty of ways raids can restore mana. A Mage won't make or break your raid similar to how a Warlock doesn't either.

    So what would you like to see? Any of these? Maybe something you came up with?
    I like this idea. Don't know how much of this was covered. (Shhh, Im at work.) But I think this would be a great raid utility. But Blizzard wouldn't put something in to just help "mana users". Mana/Energy Well is a good start for a name, but it would have 1 charge, not 3, like Health Stones. But this would restore 10% mana for mana users, maybe 50% energy, focus, and rage for appropriate users, and does not share a CD with Health Stones. It'll help out with a certain boss push/phase or making a switch to a new target a little bit better. I hate hearing in raids I'm running dry on mana, can't heal, when that 1 chain heal could have saved a life etc. Maybe that extra Ferocious Bite, Kill Shot, Execute, etc... could have made that kill. THat's the type of utility i'd like to see. We are mages, we should be able to "conjure" up anything right!?!

    Side note, wtb Deep Freeze damage back on bosses, and the fire execute sub 25% like the good days.

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