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  1. #81
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Ghostcrawler: "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome"
    Anarchor: "That he even robustly admits it that you don't need to know anyone to see content..."
    Madrox: "No, he didn't admit to any such thing."
    Ghostcrawler: "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome"
    Ghostcrawler: "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome"
    Ghostcrawler: "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome"
    Ghostcrawler: "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome"
    Madrox: "No, he didn't admit to any such thing."



    Man why am I even bothering trying to have logical and reasoned conversations on a public forum... Nevermind. You know what? Your stupidity is what made me convinced just now to stop posting on public forums anywhere anymore... Your reply alone in this thread makes everyone that reads it dumber...
    I am not sure why you insult others, just because they point out that you completely misunderstand the meaning of GC's reply.

    Let me give you an example. I claim:

    It's always dark in USA, but only at night.

    What you did, you essentially jumped onto the first part "It's always dark".. Ripping it apart... With your current logic you'd call me outright stupid, because I said, It's always dark. The modifier that completes the sentence, gets totally ignored.
    Look at GC's sentence again. Take a deep breath, and then read it again with proper grammar application. GC followed grammar rules and put a comma before the "but", yet that entire part belongs to the sentence and changes it's meaning entirely.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    No, that's what you make it out to be. It's just a game with a lot of people (more then multiplayer games) and a persistent world.

    I played since launch and I never had friends or a good social experience. Don't assume everyone had that, just because you did. What I remember is if you refused to suck up to the elitists who could raid, you would simply never raid. They'd completely destroy your reputation for ever, and there was nothing you could do about it. I prefer not to suck up to those people, so I never got to do group content, except at the very end of Classic with a bunch of outcasts, like me, and bad players. It wasn't all that fun... Now I can just ignore those elitist jerks and still experience all the content there is.
    You played since launch and you made no friends or had 1 good social experience? In almost 10 years? That's pretty sad man (almost unbelievable), most of folks made friends back then before what, level 30?
    We can assume most of the people made some acquaintances in this game, your kind is in the vast minority for sure, so I don't think you're in position to judge what he (and most of the people) perceive MMO as.

  3. #83
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    This is the kind of smug attitude that I'm glad Blizzard is undermining. None of my friends play WoW, and I've never tried to recruit them into it. I could care less if they play or not, but I wouldn't want them to do it if they didn't want to, and if they weren't having fun. According to you, my refusal to strongarm my friends into doing something they don't want to do means I should not get to experience as much as you do.

    That's totally retarded. Take your extra chromosome and go fuck yourself with it.

    Infracted. Flaming is not tolerated here
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-05-13 at 01:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Stop trying to make Siege happen, Siege is never going to happen.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    If I wanted forced socializing, I wouldn't be playing, but going to a bar or something. WoW is a multiplayer game where I can be succesful by being social on my own terms, which is something I prefer.

    Fucking extroverts...
    message wise I agree with you. Not with your extroverts comment tho....

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with Extroverted and Introverted.
    The wrong part comes into the picture when it's forced. If you get forced to become extroverted then the issue starts. Of course that also counts for the opposite, if you are forced to become reclusive.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with Extroverted and Introverted.
    The wrong part comes into the picture when it's forced. If you get forced to become extroverted then the issue starts. Of course that also counts for the opposite, if you are forced to become reclusive.
    I agree with you, but many people who have little to no clue about mentioned personalities aren't even trying to understand GC's message. Introverts who read that tweet, know what he's talking about, whereas extroverts are rampant on this very thread trying to change the game to their preference(facebook with fancy ui).

  6. #86
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post

    I played since launch and I never had friends or a good social experience. Don't assume everyone had that, just because you did. What I remember is if you refused to suck up to the elitists who could raid, you would simply never raid. They'd completely destroy your reputation for ever, and there was nothing you could do about it. I prefer not to suck up to those people, so I never got to do group content, except at the very end of Classic with a bunch of outcasts, like me, and bad players. It wasn't all that fun... Now I can just ignore those elitist jerks and still experience all the content there is.
    I played Vanilla too. I have been playing since Dec 2005 on a EU server (Emeriss). What you are saying is in fact yet another myth.

    In actuality, my 40 man guild with which I cleared MC, Onyxia, AQ 10 and some of BWL, could never muster 40 people for raids. even if we had 40+ people signed up at our forum, only around 32 people would show up at raid time.

    This led us to raid with 32 people some times, other times our GM would ask if we "knew anyone who'd like to raid, spec and gear unimportant". This is how I got into my guild as I was a new player and didn't know much about the game. Another hunter with whom we had grinded Rank 11 together remembered me one night that they were short on people and invited me to join their raid.

    I didn't know pretty much anything about raids, but I just joined the guild's Hunter channel "Antareshunters" and just followed the instructions of the Hunter Officer. Fast forward 4 months later I had Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers, Lok'delar, Stave of the Ancient Keepers and Tier 1 gear. That was in 2006.

    There were people who were elitist in there but I just didn't pay any attention to them, I just stick with my Hunter team. My guild had 8 hunters and we were all friends. If I had a problem with someone I told my Officer and he sort it out with them. I was a new player yet nobody verbally abused me and I didn't have a problem with anyone.

    This is what really happened back in Vanilla and not a myth or a "GC myth" wherein, as he said, hybrids didn't raid back in Vanilla. In fact we raided with Balance Druids, Retardins with Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros, Fury Warriors (who were top DPS in Vanilla), Shadow Priests and Feral Druids. Our Feral Druids also off tanked and sometimes main tanked.

    If you couldn't find a spot in a 40 man guild at a time when everyone standing in SW or IF who was level 60 would get drafted to do MC b/c guilds never had 40 people, there was something seriously wrong with your attitude or you were simply not interested.

    Ad memoriam:

    Last edited by Sturmbringe; 2013-05-13 at 12:06 PM.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    No, that's what you make it out to be. It's just a game with a lot of people (more then multiplayer games) and a persistent world.

    I played since launch and I never had friends or a good social experience. Don't assume everyone had that, just because you did. What I remember is if you refused to suck up to the elitists who could raid, you would simply never raid. They'd completely destroy your reputation for ever, and there was nothing you could do about it. I prefer not to suck up to those people, so I never got to do group content, except at the very end of Classic with a bunch of outcasts, like me, and bad players. It wasn't all that fun... Now I can just ignore those elitist jerks and still experience all the content there is.
    This. This is how it was in Vanilla and TBC. The community wasn't as pink colored as some like to pretend it was. Like people were only raiding with 20-40 "friends". Guild leaders and officers could do whatever they liked and no-one dared to say anything about it, afraid to lose their progression. There are enough stories around. Nice "friends" those where.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    What do you think Blizz can do better, if anything, to combat toxic attitudes within the WoW community?
    Interesting Q. We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome, but we didn't insert anything in place.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...77507831824385

    >> We removed the need for friends in order to see content, which is awesome

    >> awesome

    Anyone else that feels that this philosophy of not needing other people to play an MMO is absolute ... shite?

    Disclaimer: I'm literaly aversed against the philosophy that not needing friends (wether they are RL or online friends, made in the game) are not needed to see content. Wether they added the -option- to do it with other people (who are just a bunch of randoms) is beside the point. It just rubs me the wrong way how he said it was 'awesome'. I don't like the whole 'let's turn this mmo into a single player experience'-philosophy. Getting bunched up with a bunch of randomly selected people in a queue does nothing good to the game, nor does it make a game an MMO. If that was the case then SimCity can be called an MMO too.

    They removed the social aspect of the game when they removed the need for people to 'get to know' other people and 'make friends' with them.

    Do not take this OP out of context by assuming I'm Greg-bashing or am misunderstanding what I quoted. I guarantee you, I didn't.
    Except you did misunderstand the quote. Friends =/= people.
    #blizzisevilebecausetheyarepreventingmefromenjoyingtheirproductswithapricetag #blizzardisprovidinganadditionalservicethatpeopleaskedforandthepeoplewhodidntaskforitarepi ssedbecausetheywanteverythinghandedtothemlikeentitledassholes #whydoessubwaycharge5bucksforasandwichwhenicouldeatmyneighborsdogshitforfree #mcdonaldsmakesenoughmoneyishouldgettheirfoodforfree

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Syran View Post
    You played since launch and you made no friends or had 1 good social experience? In almost 10 years? That's pretty sad man (almost unbelievable), most of folks made friends back then before what, level 30?
    We can assume most of the people made some acquaintances in this game, your kind is in the vast minority for sure, so I don't think you're in position to judge what he (and most of the people) perceive MMO as.
    I made acquaintances in the game, yes, but I don't call them friends. It's not sad, it's something I prefer. It would be sad if I tried really hard to get friends and everyone rejected me, but that's not the case. I also think it's the other way around. Judging by how people prefer to play now, it's obvious most aren't in it for the rich social aspects. It's the same misunderstanding as thinking most people have a level 90 char. They don't.

    What I don't get is why people want to remove content that many people use, while it doesn't even matter to them. You think MMO means social? Great, go out and make friends! Group with them, do dungeons and raids with them, have fun! But leave the LFR/LFD to people who don't think MMO means (forced) social so they can group up with other people to tackle some content. It doesn't matter to you, you and all your friends don't have to group with randoms.

  10. #90
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    I agree with you, but many people who have little to no clue about mentioned personalities aren't even trying to understand GC's message. Introverts who read that tweet, know what he's talking about, whereas extroverts are rampant on this very thread trying to change the game to their preference(facebook with fancy ui).
    Yup, we're on the same page

    I don't get that whole thread.
    OP didn't understand the quotes meaning. So much is clear. But even IF....
    Let's say if GC's sentence would end at the comma. Even then it isn't negative.
    Removing the need for friends is nothing bad. Removing the possibility to have friends would be bad. There's only one thing in the game that "forces" one to play alone, and that's the solo scenarios. For everything else in the game there is a choice. One can do it with friends, or alone. For group content, one can do that with friends, or with pugs.
    WoW is an MMO... and for all what that really means is, that one plays a game at which they will face the presence of others during their gaming experience. The level of interaction between those present people is entirely up to them.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  11. #91
    Hm, how many friends did you make in PuG's and how many friends did you make in LFR?

  12. #92
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Lol. Just WoW. And to think this is the same company that did Vanilla & TBC.

    The fact that their LEAD DESIGNER is saying that let's me know that perma-closing my account was the absolute correct decision.

    and this...



    Anyone arguing this point has absolutely no business playing an MMO and should return to xbox live immediately. MMO are *meant* to be played in groups.
    The current MMO industry disagrees with you, though!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I think the need to have friends to experience content was a bad design, so I agree with what he said, but what he should've said was:

    "We removed the need for friends in order to see content, but we needed to input a method of making new friends instead, while experiencing the content"
    Kudos. Someone gets it. Amazing.

  14. #94
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodon View Post
    Raiding and PvP require a solid group of set people in order to not burn through it within a month or 2 (LFR, random BGs until gear capped) If they've removed the need to have friends to see content then the content they've created isn't sustainable as you won't have developed the social ties to experience heroic raids or RBG/Arena teams in their fullest, so you will likely see the majority of people not bothering and quitting because there's nothing left for them to do.

    If people aren't pushed in to forming social groups then it just doesn't happen. It should, but it doesn't. Sometimes forcing people down a path is the only way to get something to happen. It's past time that Blizzard created solo content that wasn't also the same as group content (e.g. LFR/LFD) which allowed people to experience a watered down version. The step needed to progress on to the 'full' version isn't taken, so it just doesn't happen.

    I'm not so certain that the need to have friends to see content was a bad design as the game was popular when that was the case, and now that they've moved away from it guilds are shrinking in size, disbanding, and servers populations are declining, all of which seem to be the symptom of something that can't quite be nailed down as a definitive reason for the decline.
    Isn't that correlation without causation or whatever? It was most popular when forced grouping was required, but not many people were doing the content that required forced grouping. How to rationalize that part?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 12:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    WoW is now a single player RPG, with MMO elements.

    it's not an MMORPG any more, other players ingame might as well be npc's, i need no interaction with them - might as well have AI tanks and healers, which you could rent for gold to help you solo everything in game.
    By this token logic, the players in any multiplayer game except old MMOs might as well be NPC's. It's really, really faulty logic.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Isn't that correlation without causation or whatever? It was most popular when forced grouping was required, but not many people were doing the content that required forced grouping. How to rationalize that part?
    How do you know that? In vanilla and TBC most people didn't have high level characters but yet low level content required grouping. From world pvp, dungeons, group quests. Hell, I even made a friend while trying to summon my other friend to UC with a help of lock.

  16. #96
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yogg-Saron, God of Death View Post
    MMORPG means you have the option to play with friends and meet new people. It doesn't mean "we'll hold a gun to your head if you so much as try to play the game on your own.". WoW promotes both group-play/meeting friends/guild-mates and solo-play. This is the way it's supposed to be.
    FOR one thing, WoW's selling point back in the day was that it was an MMO you could play by yourself, whereas most, back in the day, you needed to be in groups to level and quest, and questing and leveling was brutal. People need to have some historical perspective on this genre, and stop having this weird view of what they want MMOs to be.

    I mean, for god's sake, WoW was an MMO with single player leveling and everything of value was instanced, back on release in 2004. To many, this practically made it a baby's MMO. Everquest players made fun of it, even!

  17. #97
    In fairness I don't think the answer particularly well worded but I'm inclined to think that is due the limitations of Twitter than anything else. I think he is correct about content that does not need friends to enjoy, I think people get hung up on a MMO means you must play with others when sometimes it is enjoyable to just be part of the world. Although I think the problem was not "... we didn't insert anything in place." but rather that the content they introduced that did not require a group was dull, have little to no story to it and was incredibly repetitive.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Yeah... you need other 'tools' to see content. /facepalm ... sorry wait /doublefacepalm or tripple if I could...

    I'm sorry but this goes against everything an MMO stands for... That he even robustly admits it that you don't need to know anyone to see content in an MMO anymore is probably good for another boatload of people quiting the game after reading that.
    More or less, yes.

    In-game community, and preferably a tight-knit one, is what differentiates MMO's from other games. Turning your biggest game into what boils down to a single player experience will ultimately lose this game more subscriptions than anything.

    Because THAT experience can be had elsewhere, with better graphics, and at times better other game elements, for less money.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #99
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    I think people have also gotten pretty confused about the progression of WoW. It began as a multiplayer (MMO) game with single player elements; not the other way around. Even then, the single player content was laden with multiplayer content such as Group Quests and quests which, whilst not group quests, were made a great deal easier with the help of a group. Dungeons of any level required you to take initiative and find people of a similar level/mindset and role in order to do this. This, combined with the fact that people usually levelled at more or less the same pace or, at least, were not alone in the pace they levelled, was the perfect breeding ground for friendships to arise; and the same was true of Raiding/PvP. Now however, this is no longer the case; we have queue systems for everything and instant teleportation to where we need to go, save for non-LFR raiding/Challenge Modes and Heroic Scenarios next patch.

    Where do I think WoW has gone wrong from the social/Massively-Multiplayer-Online point of view? It removed a great deal of the need for friends and removed it with a need for players. There is still a good amount of content for which you need to develop relationships with other in order to do it, but this has decreased significantly as the years have gone on. As WoW has gone on, it's sacrificed community for the sake of convenience; a worthy trade for some, but not for others. In all likelihood, that's how it's going to stay; I can't fathom how Ghostcrawler intends to input a method of making new friends, when the game continues to lose the content that requires them. Heroic Scenarios and Challenge Modes were a step in the right direction; but this content, Challenge Modes in particular, are not for 'the masses', and it's the masses that make a community.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Anyone arguing this point has absolutely no business playing an MMO and should return to xbox live immediately. MMO are *meant* to be played in groups.
    Aww, the typical "My word is mightier than yours so obey it!!!" sort of attitude.

    Hey, I argue this point and I play an MMO. What are you gonna do about it, "Mr.SupremeOverlordOfEverything"?

    Answer: Either nothing, or reply with a lot of sizzle, but no steak.
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