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  1. #1
    The Patient
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    Ideas for revamping the Dream of Cenarius

    I was just listening to moonkin round table talk @ Team Waffle, and I got an idea for making Dream of Cenarius a viable talent.

    How bout it was a passive buff working like that:
    for Balance, Feral and Guardian spec, for every target that you have your rejuvenation on - you get +5% crit, up to 3 targets.
    for Resto spec, for every target that you have your moonfire on - you get +5% crit, up to 3 targets.


    I thought of it because it was said that 6th tier talents are connected to our hybrid nature.

    Also, specifically for moonkins, it would help our dps while we re moving, we could just use the "moving time" to put rejuvenation on team members, to get more crit to get more SS procs.

    What do you think about it?

    Could we force Blizzard to make it viable? :P

    or maybe other ideas?
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-05-31 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #2
    Tbh, that would turn it from being the best talent for feral to the worst. Would be useless for tanks as well, and as resto it would be completely and utterly terrible. Crit is the worst stat for resto, and there's not many fights where you could even have moonfire on 3 targets to get the full benefit.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crysthalica View Post
    Tbh, that would turn it from being the best talent for feral to the worst. Would be useless for tanks as well, and as resto it would be completely and utterly terrible. Crit is the worst stat for resto,
    well, then maybe it could be different secondary stats for different specs. Anyway I had boomkin in mind mostly, cos for boomkins it s a dead talent.
    for resto druid it could be haste or mastery, although I cant agree with "utterly terrible" opinion .


    Quote Originally Posted by Crysthalica View Post
    there's not many fights where you could even have moonfire on 3 targets to get the full benefit.

    Of course it would not be a talent good for every fight, but there are some that it could work well.

    My point is not to make Dream of Cenarius - a dominant 6th talent, only to make it slightly viable for any but feral spec.

  4. #4
    Can we scrap DoC already? Forcing us into hybridism is not a good idea and as long as this stays so (or unless DoC gets really op) I'll never use it, esp. with the 12 man HotW Moonkin Tranq in mind D:

  5. #5
    I think DoC might be one of those talents that would need to have separate effects based on spec to help balance it better.

    Despite being a hybrid tier only one of the talent choices has anything to do with tanking outside of being a Guardian, and even then HotW seems to be used more as a healing CD along with tranq. Apparently Blizzard prefers to think hybrid = healing when not specced for it.

    Another approach I was thinking of is if they were to just increase the pool of abilities that can trigger it. For instance as a Moonkin, if they were to change it so every time you use Healing touch, any of the level 30 talents (Nature's swiftness, Renewal, and Cenarion Ward), Barkskin, Might of Ursoc, and Growl your next 2 DoT's would get a boost. Then when ever you Wrath, Starfire or Starsurge, healing is increased for your next spell or you get a small boost to survivability when using a defensive CD/Growl. So we can keep the on demand DoT booster in healing touch but we also get rewarded for embracing more of what our class has to offer. Admittedly I think that perhaps having a constant boost to our defensive CD's from our nukes sounds a little broken but it might not be so bad if the numbers are adjusted correctly. Before anyone says it, I know in most raid situations you wouldn't ever want to Growl or risk having your face peeled off by the boss, but it might be an interesting choice if there is a fight with adds that need controlling.
    Last edited by Broodling67; 2013-05-21 at 04:35 PM.

  6. #6
    Sounds interesting but i agree that it's hard to make a talent attractive to all 4 specs. Also "Deam of Cenarius" lol - some mod might want to help to change the topic

  7. #7
    It needs to either be killed with fire, or have a different effect for each spec.

  8. #8
    Needs to be changed for everything but feral in my opinion.
    If you can't handle DoC as feral just go HotW and stop crying.
    It would be really good if Guardians could get a heal from it that turns into a small absorb like monk's guard.
    Allow boomkins to throw a rejuv and gain a buff that grants 0.5 sec GCD for the next 2 moonfires or 2 sunfire and extra lunar energy stuff
    For Resto nourish, regrowth, healing touch have a 100% chance to put living seed, or when they go cat every 1 CP used on finishers means a free rejuv buff which you can later use stacking up to 20.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    The best way to fix it for Resto/Balance is to A) Allow the damage portion to benefit ALL spells, and B) allow the Damage portion to stack up to 20 times, and the healing portion, 15 times. Cause Rejuvenation to add 1-2 stacks at a certain rate (1-1-2). Allow Tranq to add stacks each time it heals different targets- a boomkin casting tranq will come out with a max 20 stacks.

    This allows Resto to "attone", sorta, except rather then adding in healing at that exact instance, it allows more healing later on in the fight for a good period of time. For boomkins, it turns tranq from a healing cooldown into a 8 second channel for healing, and then a 20 second high-burst period, as well as roll some rejuves for periods when you are prepping to burst targets.

    For Guardian, the only way to make it really work is to have it interact with Frenzied Regeneration or something. Perhaps something like each Maul increases the healing of your next FR by 30%, and each FR usage increases the damage of your next maul by 80%? Still, thats more of a self buff- as long as Guardians are unable to cast in bear form, OR unable to retain bear form stats while shifted out, any version of DoC will NOT support Guardians being a "hybrid"...

    But yea, for Resto/Balance, cause it to stack to a high amount, allow the damage portion to affect all damaging spells, and allow Rejuve/Tranq (and others for Resto) to stack dmage stacks will solve it quite nicely.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    Can we scrap DoC already?
    it's been the most problematic talent all mop. a complete scrappage is in order and start fresh. The hybridization just isnt working! May as well just bring Fae Empowerment back.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    . Also "Deam of Cenarius" lol - some mod might want to help to change the topic
    ye now I see it

  12. #12
    It seems odd to me that they won't let it be affected by Frenzied Regen: it's not like Guardians are going to benefit much from the added damage, but it might be a decent consideration then. As it is, no way bears can drop form for it.

    The solution might be to give it a resource mechanic instead of raw throughput: this would preserve synergy and seems pretty relevant across specs. Guardian is always hungry for rage, Feral can always do something with energy, and Resto would now have a great three options: a passive boost with the ability to temporarily take over for a different role, a cooldown for burst healing, and then an endurance option. Stuck on Boomkin, but maybe give a burst of solar/lunar energy? Would that be enough to waste a GCD on a non-dps spell?

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Ferals DoC is more then fine, imo it needs different effects for different specs i can't see the other three specs considering it even.
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  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sivaas View Post
    It seems odd to me that they won't let it be affected by Frenzied Regen: it's not like Guardians are going to benefit much from the added damage, but it might be a decent consideration then. As it is, no way bears can drop form for it.

    The solution might be to give it a resource mechanic instead of raw throughput: this would preserve synergy and seems pretty relevant across specs. Guardian is always hungry for rage, Feral can always do something with energy, and Resto would now have a great three options: a passive boost with the ability to temporarily take over for a different role, a cooldown for burst healing, and then an endurance option. Stuck on Boomkin, but maybe give a burst of solar/lunar energy? Would that be enough to waste a GCD on a non-dps spell?
    The T45 talents tend to deal with resource generation (Soul of the Forest, and kinda Incarnation for various specs. Guardian, its major rage generation CD, Resto, its a CD that can be used to regen mana and put out decent healing, Boomkins have shorter eclipses, and Ferals get more combo points/damage per energy consumed, rather then a blank +damage/healing CD. Force of Nature was changed to free damage/healing.)

    As has been stated, it will need to do something different for the various specs. For Boomkin/Resto, allowing the damage portion to affect ALL spells, allowing both the healing portion and the damage portion to stack up multiple charges (15 healing charges and 20 damage charges should be more then enough), and changing it to where Nourish gives 2 charges, Rejuve/WG/Regrowth/Swiftmend gives 1.5 charges (half of the time 1, half of the time 2), and causing Tranq to cap you on charges will cause the talent to become competitive with the other ones.

    For Guardian, it will require an actual spec change- mainly, allowing Guardians to either A) retain 100% of bear form armor while in caster form, or B) allowing the usage of spells while tanking as a bear, for it to actually fufill its purpose of "hybridizing". Heck, just making it allow usage of Rejuve while tanking will be enough to make it useful for tanks.

    For feral, its fairly perfect. Adds more dps/utility, but for higher complexity in the rotation. (being able to spot heal with 100k healing touches rocks)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  15. #15
    why revamp you use it as a cat and it is really awesome would be cool if you could use wrath with the instanproc but its still fine. You can use it healer on 1-2 fights. Guardian choice will always be NV or HotW both are really strong for bears. So no need there balance use HotW or NV on some fights for more utility.

    We are a class with 4 specs and having every tier 3 talents for all 4 speccs is complicated.

  16. #16
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    why revamp you use it as a cat and it is really awesome would be cool if you could use wrath with the instanproc but its still fine. You can use it healer on 1-2 fights. Guardian choice will always be NV or HotW both are really strong for bears. So no need there balance use HotW or NV on some fights for more utility.

    We are a class with 4 specs and having every tier 3 talents for all 4 speccs is complicated.
    It works well for one spec. That's not justification to keep it the way it is.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 03:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mikoslav View Post
    ye now I see it
    I fixed it. FYI, you can edit your own subject if you use the advanced editor.

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  17. #17
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post

    I fixed it. FYI, you can edit your own subject if you use the advanced editor.
    thank you, I will next time.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    It works well for one spec. That's not justification to keep it the way it is.
    Sure its not your right, but its a heal/dps talent tree. Now we have HotW in that tier a passive boni for more dps and a heal/dps use. And NV a dps boost that lets your dmg heal and your heal do dmg.

    And we have a quite complicated passvie that lets you do more heal/dmg if you do the other. You could make it a bit better for trees, but it will be very hard to make it viable for all speccs or more than two cause the others are so strong.

    I can see guardian 2piece next patch as DoC or something like it. When you use FR your next SD gives you 5% more dodge, plus a nerfed version of 2piece. Or when you dodge while SD is active you have a change you next mangel will do 15% more dmg and your next thrash or lacerate will increase your next FR by 10% stacks up to 2 times. Second one is more likely cause it kinda fits into the DoC category.

    But balance and heal I dont see anything to make it viable in almost all situations. I see 1-2 bosses right now where it doenst suck so much for trees if you use certain tactics. You would need to give the moonkin a proc like cat which doesnt make them too strong in pvp, maybe each time NG procs your next regrowth or HT is instant. for heal i dont know maybe like someone said kind of a stack mechanic added to it so you can spam more wrath and save the heal proc. and the other way around.

    Just saying even for cats it makes the rotation complicated and the dps gain is good but HotW is not so far behing last time i checked.

    The main problem is its a complicated system and in sims or on dummys it will look good but it will still be hard to master on a bossfight. especially for balance druids.

    Just saying the way the talent is intended to work, is really hard to balacne aroung all speccs. Cause it should not be too strong compared to the other talents or in PvP. If you change it too much it could get to close beeing something like NV for balance for example. But I would guess they would make it viable for one additional specc maybe, but for all 4 its almost impossible

  19. #19
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Your idea for Guardian doesn't work. You're talking about using one part of the Guardian rotation to buff another part. Just because part of at rotation is damage or healing, it's still part of your core rotation as a tank. That is completely different than a feral or balance druid having to throw out heals to get better damage or a tree having to throw out moonfires to get better healing.

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  20. #20
    Damn it your right.
    But a tree has to throw out wrath to get better heals btw. Heals make your dots better wrath your heals.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-31 at 06:43 PM.

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