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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    What if ancients and loa are the same things but just named differently by different races just like i hope anshe will be connected to holy light.

    She can be night elves' great ancient and not necessarily a troll thing.
    Pretty sure they are. Blizzard said in one of their lore q&a's that troll druids call the ancients and wisps loa.
    Last edited by leaks; 2013-05-14 at 09:03 AM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    we know that the night elves evolved from trolls.
    The connection between the two, in Warcraft lore, is nothing more than a myth, not even remotely near a fact. The night elves think they descend from Elune, but in doing so they completely discard any kind of relationship of their race with the troll race. And trolls don't really care about it, they just hate them for some (good) reasons.

    About Elune be a loa it's possible only because in fact we know very little about her, so any speculation is "ok". Normally the loa are entities a lot "darker" compared to the other ancients, greedy and even bloodthirsty, giving protection in exchange of sacrifices. It's extremely hard to belive that Elune is part of this "family", but can always be speculated that Elune was some kind of exception, a truly benevolent loa that evolved to something else. Pretending that this is the truth, then the link elves-trolls should be something more than a myth, because the night elves could be trolls that evolved aswell with the loa they worshipped, changing look and mentality.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 02:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    What if ancients and loa are the same things but just named differently by different races just like i hope anshe will be connected to holy light.

    She can be night elves' great ancient and not necessarily a troll thing.
    Nope, ancients and loa are not the same thing, they are pretty different, the loa have a completely different attitude and behavior compared to the ancients. The loa, the ones that trolls directly worship, are definetly a troll thing.
    Anshe it is not connected with the Holy Light at all, but with the Sun, it's been explained that the source of the Sunwalkers's power it's different by Paladins and Vindicators.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-14 at 02:39 PM.

  3. #23
    We still have to understand what loas actually are in the bigger scheme of things, and what are their actual powers compared to, say, the Titans, the Naaru or the Old Gods.
    Maybe trolls and night elves simply give different names to their "gods" but they are the same beings. Even if I think that, if Elune is a spirit, is one of the strongest ones.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    What if ancients and loa are the same things but just named differently by different races just like i hope anshe will be connected to holy light.

    She can be night elves' great ancient and not necessarily a troll thing.
    as i said earlier the trolls consider the ancients loa and if you look all the trolls kind of worship their own little section of the loa and not all loa are the same some loa are weak some loa are immensely powerful so it could be possible that the ancients that live around hyjal (malorne, goldrinn, tortolla ect) were the loa that the dark tribe revered, along with elune who if this theory is correct would have been a dark troll or early night elf who basically ascended to god hood.

    over time as night elves became less like trolls and more like what they are today the ancients of hyjal and elune would become the only loa they revered at all especially after crushing the other troll tribes and possibly desecrating the loa the other trolls revered ect ect
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    We still have to understand what loas actually are in the bigger scheme of things, and what are their actual powers compared to, say, the Titans, the Naaru or the Old Gods.
    Maybe trolls and night elves simply give different names to their "gods" but they are the same beings. Even if I think that, if Elune is a spirit, is one of the strongest ones.
    The same thing doesn't have a different behavior depending on which race worship it. Loa and Ancients can be connected, the trolls can see the anciets as "loa", but the loa that the trolls and the trolls alone worship are definetly a different thing from the ancients.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The connection between the two, in Warcraft lore, is nothing more than a myth, not even remotely near a fact. The night elves think they descend from Elune, but in doing so they completely discard any kind of relationship of their race with the troll race. And trolls don't really care about it, they just hate them for some (good) reasons.

    About Elune be a loa it's possible only because in fact we know very little about her, so any speculation is "ok". Normally the loa are entities a lot "darker" compared to the other ancients, greedy and even bloodthirsty, giving protection in exchange of sacrifices. It's extremely hard to belive that Elune is part of this "family", but can always be speculated that Elune was some kind of exception, a truly benevolent loa that evolved to something else. Pretending that this is the truth, then the link elves-trolls should be something more than a myth, because the night elves could be trolls that evolved aswell with the loa they worshipped, changing look and mentality.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 02:33 PM ----------



    Nope, ancients and loa are not the same thing, they are pretty different, the loa have a completely different attitude and behavior compared to the ancients. The loa, the ones that trolls directly worship, are definetly a troll thing.
    Anshe it is not connected with the Holy Light at all, but with the Sun, it's been explained that the source of the Sunwalkers's power it's different by Paladins and Vindicators.
    its not a myth, blizzard has confirmed that the night elves evolved from dark trolls when infused with the powers of the well of eternity (similar to how murlocs became the jinyu from the powers of the vale) also blizzard has said the trolls consider the ancients to be loa and since trolls are the biggest experts on loa id say its likely they are the same thing but with different names. there are many loa and virtually all trolls seem to worship them so since we know night elves evolved from dark trolls its not unlikely that the ancients were the loa they worshiped
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The same thing doesn't have a different behavior depending on which race worship it. Loa and Ancients can be connected, the trolls can see the anciets as "loa", but the loa that the trolls and the trolls alone worship are definetly a different thing from the ancients.
    It could be the other way round, if there are multiple spirits with different characteristics (evil ones, good ones, even neutral ones) it's quite natural that a darker and more savage race like the trolls will more easily identify itself with a spirit like Hakkar. While the reclusive, nobler, more meditative night elves feel naturally attracted to the moon spirit Elune.

  8. #28
    I think Elune is an Old God, just not one of the evil ones. In one of the novels when Tyrande was young she worshipped in a building that had a mural of elune in the middle of other gods, and those gods were all faceless and unremarkable in detail suggesting that she was not the only God. Since most pantheons have a couple or even half the pantheon that are evil in nature its not too much of a stretch to believe that Elune belonged to a pantheon of which she was one of the few Good natured Gods.

    This would also explain why the Old Gods were all imprisoned but Elune was not, she was not a threat to the Titans new world order.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I think Elune is an Old God, just not one of the evil ones. In one of the novels when Tyrande was young she worshipped in a building that had a mural of elune in the middle of other gods, and those gods were all faceless and unremarkable in detail suggesting that she was not the only God. Since most pantheons have a couple or even half the pantheon that are evil in nature its not too much of a stretch to believe that Elune belonged to a pantheon of which she was one of the few Good natured Gods.

    This would also explain why the Old Gods were all imprisoned but Elune was not, she was not a threat to the Titans new world order.
    that would be an interesting twist if we found out there were good old gods
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    It could be the other way round, if there are multiple spirits with different characteristics (evil ones, good ones, even neutral ones) it's quite natural that a darker and more savage race like the trolls will more easily identify itself with a spirit like Hakkar. While the reclusive, nobler, more meditative night elves feel naturally attracted to the moon spirit Elune.
    This seems far more likely than the races each having their own special type of spirit. Trolls are far more primal and vicious and would attract and be drawn to darker spirits. Loa could just be their word for powerful spirits and not a special kind of spirit itself.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  11. #31
    Whether or not Elune is a Loa has nothing to do with her being "good". Loa are not defined by their attitude or alignment, but by their nature and their power. There are good Loa just as there are evil ones, in so far as these terms can even be applied to beings of such transcendent nature.

    I think it's not too far-fetched to conclude that Elune is a Loa. It could very well be that the primal trolls that worshiped her in her original Loa form were a distinct tribe, separated from the other trolls through their different beliefs as well as physically (through their location); that location might have been what caused their eventual transformation into Night Elves, as only they were close enough to the Well of Eternity to undergo it, while the rest of the trolls were not affected. They would have kept their belief, and adapted it over time to their new society. Perhaps the Loa Elune was already closely related to the moon in that early system, and over time the imagery only grew stronger and stronger, evolving into what we now call Elune, the Moon-Goddess. Most of the gods or god-like beings in Azeroth and the WoW universe (though not all of them) do not openly and actively direct their follower's faith. They choose more subtle ways. It could very well be that Elune, being good-natured, chose to allow her followers to adapt their ways as they saw fit. She merely continued to bestow the occasional boon and priestly powers, but that was about it. No revelation, no apparition, no intervention; she remains shrouded in mystery. This, incidentally, is also quite contrary to the way the Naaru operate. They have never been shy of revealing themselves and have taken a most active role in direction their adherents. Heck, they occupy prime spots in cities and vessels even, actually physically partaking in events. Unless there was some sort of deeper philosophical schism within the Naaru (which could of course be exactly what happened, who knows), it seems unlikely that a notoriously elusive being like Elune is a Naaru. Unless, of course, she has some sort of agenda that demands exactly that - a possible opening for the story-makers and lore-smiths at Blizzard, I suppose, should they choose to go that route after all.

    Personally, I think that it would be a much, much better solution to have Elune be in a fact a Loa. Not only would this throw into question many of the traditional alliances within Azeroth, it would also steer away a bit from the whole "Naaru Crusade" thing that dominated TBC and marginalized all the Azerothian belief systems other than the Light.

    Tauren are another issue altogether. It is widely understood that the Earthmother they worship is sort of an aspect of Elune, but the Light, too, is in there somewhere. This could hint at a possible Naaru connection to Elune, too, but it could also mean a more complex issue within Tauren society. The Tauren essentially worship nature, in all its forms, symbolized and understood as aspects of the Earthmother. But the Light is a much more encompassing force that goes far beyond what Tauren traditionally understand as (Azerothian) nature. I suspect that this could cause a fundamental philosophical division within the Tauren, with part of their society turning to a more Naaru-inspired worship of the Light, while the others retain the traditional Tauren animism and worship of the aspects of the earth mother. In fact, should Elune be revealed to be a Loa, this could even be reinforced; after all, Loa are nothing but the most powerful of all animistic entities, sort of actual avatars of aspects of nature. In that, Tauren and Trolls could grow much closer, which given recent developments they already seem to be doing anyway. Adding the Night Elves to that mix, too, could cause all sorts of trouble, and trouble is always a source for more game content and more lore depth.

    I find this quite an exciting prospect, and I hope that Blizzard expands on it. But it also hints at something else: there is a distinct possibility (though purely speculative) that the race-restrictions of Alliance and Horde may be crumbling in the next expansion. Already we have the Pandaren, who can join both factions; the Blood Elves are putting out feelers towards the Alliance, remembering their Quel'dorei roots and allegiances; the Trolls and Tauren are facing difficulties and alienation within the Horde; Sylvanas is doing her own thing, and it's not pretty; all these hint at possible unrest and divisiveness within the factions, particularly the Horde. With the Blizzard promise of the Draenei playing "some bigger role" soon, I wouldn't be surprised if we're heading for another bombshell there, too. After all, most people are fairly convinced that the next expansion is going to be "TBC 2.0", and one of the main TBC factions, the Blood Elves, are already stirring; having the Draenei join in to cause some more upheaval would only be a logical course. The whole Elune=Loa thing would fir that theme perfectly, giving cause for a schism within the Night Elves, and birthing a Horde-alligned faction of them (perhaps turning towards shamanism, too?).

    We can only wait and see!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    its not a myth, blizzard has confirmed that the night elves evolved from dark trolls when infused with the powers of the well of eternity (similar to how murlocs became the jinyu from the powers of the vale) also blizzard has said the trolls consider the ancients to be loa and since trolls are the biggest experts on loa id say its likely they are the same thing but with different names. there are many loa and virtually all trolls seem to worship them so since we know night elves evolved from dark trolls its not unlikely that the ancients were the loa they worshiped
    I think that the loa the trolls worship are "different", intending that them and the ancients are not the same entities, because they have a completely different behavior, more darker and in line with the more savage and cruel attitude of the trolls. But ofcourse they can be all part of the same "family", as Stannis said, multiple ancient entities that are drawn to one race or another depending on their attitude, the more darker stick with the most savage troll tribes, the "noble" ones with the night elves. It's also possible that only troll druids have some kind of relationship with the ancients that they consider loa, as troll druids represent the less savage trolls, more noble and wiser, while it's unlikely that tribes like the Fakkari have even the slightest relation with them.

    I'm not a Night Elf lore expert so i didn't know that the connection elves-trolls was confirmed. However, if those who originated the elves were the dark trolls, this makes sense, since while they are considered the most brutal and savage of all troll tribes, they were ok with helping the night elves in the battle of Mount Hyjal, a thing that i always found strange. Plus, they have the common theme of the "night" (most dark trolls live underground and go to the surface only during the night, mostly for hunting).

    Pretty ironic that the night elves evolved by the most violent and primitive of all the troll tribes, they are considered even the less intelligent. Their origins is quite a mystery too, compared to all the other tribes.

    Personally, I think that it would be a much, much better solution to have Elune be in a fact a Loa
    Far better than be a Naruu indeed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 04:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    It could be the other way round, if there are multiple spirits with different characteristics (evil ones, good ones, even neutral ones) it's quite natural that a darker and more savage race like the trolls will more easily identify itself with a spirit like Hakkar. While the reclusive, nobler, more meditative night elves feel naturally attracted to the moon spirit Elune.
    Yeah, it's reasonable, however it's worth to be said that Hakkar was some kind of...tragic exception, someone so cruel and bloodthirsty that even the Gurubashi rejected in the end, Atal'ai excluded. They tried again to rejoin with Hakkar in vanilla but always for desperation, as desperation was the reason for their calling by the beginning (not even a willing one, Hakkar himself decided to answer their cry for help). If ancients and loa are truly common entities in the end, Hakkar represent the darkest and more dangerous one. Many consider him an Old God, but to me seems just a particular powerful and evil Loa. The fact that the Green Dragonflight personally discovered and tried to undo the work of the Atal'ai, as it has been stated that both Loa and Ancients are connected with the Emerald Dream, is a further prove.

    Maybe Elune and Hakkar represent the "best" and the "worst" of them, the brighter and the darker. Maybe they are even connected somehow.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-14 at 05:15 PM.

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