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  1. #41
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So I'm guessing a bomb that hits for 30-40k outside of frozen/crits isn't a wet noodle to you.

    Not to mention it puts us in interrupt valley.

    Alright, I don't have a disarm so... Yeah... Not to mention that silences affect us just as bad (if not worse because we can't even pop defensives in a silence except for Ice Block).

    I'm guessing you're one of those 95% who don't know what their class's toolkit is.
    Let's list my classes toolkits then, eh?

    Ret: Bubble on a 5 minute CD. So, you can Deep 10x for every bubble I get. Nice stun defensive, right?
    Windwalker: Even with Nimble Brew, 2 CC breaks on 2 minute CD's. You still get 2 Deeps that can't be defensived.
    Boomkin: Barkskin. Every other Deep and I can't do anything about it. Barkskin won't even necessarily save you from death.
    Hunter: Can't use any defensives during stun, there's web wrap, but thats going to be a minute CD. Still do fine against mages.

    Point being, many classes in this game can't do SHIT against deep burst. Most of them especially are healers. BTW that scary "interrupt valley" ALWAYS exists against stupid fuckin mage blanket silence.

    Seriously. Play a melee class for an hour in arena and you'd be on this side of the argument. Moar bias please.

    Edit: In before FINE = HUNTERS ALWAYS WIN

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Let's list my classes toolkits then, eh?

    Ret: Bubble on a 5 minute CD. So, you can Deep 10x for every bubble I get. Nice stun defensive, right?
    Windwalker: Even with Nimble Brew, 2 CC breaks on 2 minute CD's. You still get 2 Deeps that can't be defensived.
    Boomkin: Barkskin. Every other Deep and I can't do anything about it. Barkskin won't even necessarily save you from death.
    Hunter: Can't use any defensives during stun, there's web wrap, but thats going to be a minute CD. Still do fine against mages.

    Point being, many classes in this game can't do SHIT against deep burst. Most of them especially are healers. BTW that scary "interrupt valley" ALWAYS exists against stupid fuckin mage blanket silence.

    Seriously. Play a melee class for an hour in arena and you'd be on this side of the argument. Moar bias please.
    Let me toss warriors in the mix too: While stunned we can do.... NOTHING.
    OFC this is assuming you dont trinket anything besides deep, which is soooo easy to do playing against teams like godcomp..

    I love the interrupt valley too, cause you know, you dont have an arcane tree to go sheeping people if you get locked out of frost.

  3. #43
    deep freeze is needed, mage damage is aweful against unfrozen targets and frost nova breaks from a gental breeze

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvales View Post
    deep freeze is needed, mage damage is aweful against unfrozen targets and frost nova breaks from a gental breeze
    Right, frost nova will break from a gentle breeze, too bad mages don't do gentle breezes to frozen targets. Deep Freeze isn't needed. Any other times stuns have caused auto-crits has been nerfed.

    Edit: Apologize, perhaps the stun is needed, but AUTO-critting isn't. Maybe something like ~60% crit would be fine, but its stupid taking 250-300k damage in a stun, almost every time. Deep IS a frost mage's burst macro.

  5. #45
    Warchief Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Deep's CD is far below any effective counter, and you know that, just like you also know that mages possess enough instant CC in addition to deep to stop the deep from getting peeled.
    So two instant CC aside from the deep? Granted you can say that Any mage CC is instant with PoM, but that would be silly. Baseline... It's two aside from Deep. Not really all that many considering that unless Deep is off CD, you aren't in a whole lot of trouble.


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  6. #46
    You have a partner in rated pvp 1v1 isn't balanced and never was.

    Hunter have roar of sacrifice and a pet to cc the mage when they are getting bursted down.
    Ret's have another shield divine protection that reduces magic damage by 40% unglyphed.

    You have to count trinkets as well and your aren't suppose to avoid every deep because if you do how will the mage get a kill?
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitmannoob View Post
    You have a partner in rated pvp 1v1 isn't balanced and never was.

    Hunter have roar of sacrifice and a pet to cc the mage when they are getting bursted down.
    Ret's have another shield divine protection that reduces magic damage by 40% unglyphed.

    You have to count trinkets as well and your aren't suppose to avoid every deep because if you do how will the mage get a kill?
    Because Divine Protection can be used while stunned, right?
    Oooooh wait, it can't. And its been said multiple times in this thread that mages also have a partner, usually a fear-heavy class that can CC the living hell out of your teammates.

    That's odd. Most other classes can only push for a kill every 1-2 minutes, based on CD's. But deep is every 30, and stronger than some classes CD's.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So, I should go 1v3? Sounds legit.

    What are my teammates? Are they just incompetent idiots? Why am I doing hardcore 3s with them then?
    what in the world are you talking about? how does saying run 3s as a warrior=1v3, run any warrior 3s comp you want. i know when mages see warriors, they dont think. "oh crap its a warrior, we lose".

    wait, have you even pvped this season?
    Last edited by BLVCK; 2013-05-13 at 11:26 PM.

  9. #49
    I'm not 100% defending Mage here, but let's be realistic - in the current meta if Mages didn't have deep, they'd be lowest tier.

    It's not Deep + Orb, I am glad Blizzard have realized this, I say Deep + Orb because, really, Deep alone is not scary, sure it should cause some pressure but if you are dying in a deep every 30 seconds you are doing something incredibly wrong.

    However, DEEP + ORB SHOULD be scary, it should do one of three things, force a 1) defensive, 2) a trinket, or 3) a peel. There are many other abilities in the game that other classes have that force one of these three things. Some of them are short cooldown like Deep + Orb (Dance, for example), or some are longer cooldowns but longer lasting/undispellable. Some make the player immune to most forms of peels (Lichborne, AMS, Desecrated Ground, some others).

    It's when you combine this scary combo with Incanters Ward, on use trinket, and stupid Mages who use double damage trinkets instead of a regular PVP trinket.

    First thing they should look at is PVE Gear in Arenas. Maybe 5.3 will fix it. Maybe not. Has anyone ever faced a good PVE trinket Human Unholy Dk or Rogue? Just as scary as a Mage. I play Disc Priest and Resto Druid at 2200+ right now and I much prefer facing Mages than I do Unholy Dk/Rogues.

    Then they need to take a look at Incanters.

    Don't touch interesting class abilities before fixing the one thing that globally affects every "overpowered" class: Trinkets.

    And nerfing a Mage because Holy Paladins flop over to them is stupid, that is a problem with Holy Paladins, not Mages. I agree Holy needs looking at.

  10. #50
    They could just undo the shatter addition to fire/arc and then they wouldn't have to get so creative with how they nerf/buff them for pvp or pve.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  11. #51
    lmfao some of you people are trying to say mages are fine as is-lmfao.when is the last time mages had a down season in arena?warriors have been gutted time and time again to end up useless in pvp more then once.all the while mages get 1 small nerf here or there on ptrs,then it gets reverted before it goes live.

    im willing to bet warriors received more nerfs since mop started then mages have gotten since wrath.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    lmfao some of you people are trying to say mages are fine as is-lmfao.when is the last time mages had a down season in arena?warriors have been gutted time and time again to end up useless in pvp more then once.all the while mages get 1 small nerf here or there on ptrs,then it gets reverted before it goes live.

    im willing to bet warriors received more nerfs since mop started then mages have gotten since wrath.
    Mages have always been good, it's the way the class works that makes them good. But they've never been a faceroll to Glad class, with the exception of maybe the first month of Season 9 when they got Time Warp, and the first two weeks of Season 12 when Frost Bomb was doing ridiculous damage, plus fire blast glyph.

    Warriors for basically the whole of S12 were like this.

    Hunters were as well.

    Mages are OK - basically the TLDR version of my post above is:

    - Incanters Ward needs a look.
    - PVE Gear needs to be completely not allowed in Arena, mainly trinkets this season. PVE trinkets favour some classes more than others (UH Dk's, Rogues, Mages at the moment. Just fucking remove it already.
    - The main problem arises when Incanters is stacked with Relic of Yu'lon and On Use PVP trinket.

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    So two instant CC aside from the deep? Granted you can say that Any mage CC is instant with PoM, but that would be silly. Baseline... It's two aside from Deep. Not really all that many considering that unless Deep is off CD, you aren't in a whole lot of trouble.
    HAHAHHAHAHAHA ITS ONLY TWO! They only have 2 instant CCs, not using PoM for the other target....

    GC cant protect you forever, balance is coming to mages.
    You, you'll regret what you have done this day, I will make you regret ever being born, you're going to wish you never left your mother's womb, where it was warm and safe and wet, I am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainbow!
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by moistau View Post
    Mages have always been good, it's the way the class works that makes them good. But they've never been a faceroll to Glad class, with the exception of maybe the first month of Season 9 when they got Time Warp, and the first two weeks of Season 12 when Frost Bomb was doing ridiculous damage, plus fire blast glyph.

    Warriors for basically the whole of S12 were like this.

    Hunters were as well.

    Mages are OK - basically the TLDR version of my post above is:

    - Incanters Ward needs a look.
    - PVE Gear needs to be completely not allowed in Arena, mainly trinkets this season. PVE trinkets favour some classes more than others (UH Dk's, Rogues, Mages at the moment. Just fucking remove it already.
    - The main problem arises when Incanters is stacked with Relic of Yu'lon and On Use PVP trinket.
    like i said mages have never been bad in pvp = class bias.you cant say mage are good in pvp becasue thats just the class,thats not true.mages have op'ed abilities and do op'ed burst but are never nerfed.

    how can warriors t4b get removed "and i agreed with it" but mages can do this kind or retarted burst from 30 yards away?

    warrior were the wost pvp class in game for over a year in cata,then had 1 op'ed season in mop before we were nerfed to shit again.mages during that time=top of the food chain.why?where are the nerfs?wheres the balance?look where mages are atm and where warriors are?

    to the guy that said GC does not play a mage,yes he does.
    Last edited by meathead; 2013-05-14 at 12:04 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulForge View Post
    Mages have always been favored by GC. Noxxic rankings for DPS has all 3 specs in the top 5 for most of the gear level rankings.

    Its burns me all the time when I think about it.

    In PvP they have stupid amounts of control.
    I see what you did there.
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  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk
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    Dear OP, did you read ALL of the snip of blue you reposted?

    "Because Incanter's Ward is one of the bigger reasons for high Mage burst, we have plans to make changes to it in patch 5.3."

    WTF is that?! I'd say it's directly contrary to what you are saying.
    Am I defending mages? Fuck no way in hell man!
    But at least try to be honest, b/c when you do this, I realize there isn't any point in trying to find value in your post.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    HAHAHHAHAHAHA ITS ONLY TWO! They only have 2 instant CCs, not using PoM for the other target....

    GC cant protect you forever, balance is coming to mages.
    Don't count on it. Blizzard always make sure that mages are a top class somehow. People asked for nerfs for mastery stacking mages in Cata and nothing happened. Fire mages in PVE gear were ridiculous as well.

    No class should be able to drop someone from 100% to 0 every 30 seconds. But mages can, from range no less. They are immune to nerfs.

    People forget that mages usually have a partner who can burst well as well, so you are usually dead in 4 seconds or less.

    I guess we will have to wait and see how much of a difference the blanket PVP power nerf makes to burst damage.

  18. #58
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    So, originally someone Tweet'd Holinka about when mages would get nerfed. Ghostcrawler responded saying that Mages were good against lower skilled players, but against very skilled players they were hard countered (seemingly regardless of spec). If that were true, we should expect to see a very low representation of mages in the top 100 teams in the world, right?

    So I counted, and tweet'd back to Ghostcrawler. "35 of the top 100 3v3 teams in the world have a frost mage on them, higher than any other spec, higher than rogues or spriests."

    The only season I can think of with greater representation imbalance in the top 100 was KFC's in 5.0, and that was due in large part to a massive bug (stampede doing Quad Damage): even then, I think it was only something like ~45 KFC's out of 100. That should give you some perspective of what overpowered looks like when it happens. There are a number of WoW-savants who, even when they aren't playing the comp-du-jour, are pretty much impossible to keep out of the top 100 in 3's. In 2's (always horrendously unbalanced), in season 5, Holy/Unholy for awhile toward the end of the season was 100/100 - but that's 2's (that's also around the time they removed 2's from competitive pvp). 3's doesn't see that level of imbalance - for most good seasons even the most popular comp only sees <20% representation in the top 100 - and right now mage comps outnumber rogue comps or hunter comps or spriest comps.

    So now we get this, minor nerf to Incanter's Ward, minor nerf to burst. When the real problem is fmage control and synergy. I told them when they nerfed all spriest utility that they weren't going to kill Shatterplay / Shatreeplay, they were just going to replace the spriest with other classes that are very dangerous when allowed to free-cast - because Spriest/Fmage/X isn't actually a problem of spriest utility, it's a problem of spriests who can free-cast all game - fmage + rdruid roots and spammable CC are the best way to make that happen.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Because Divine Protection can be used while stunned, right?
    Oooooh wait, it can't. And its been said multiple times in this thread that mages also have a partner, usually a fear-heavy class that can CC the living hell out of your teammates.

    That's odd. Most other classes can only push for a kill every 1-2 minutes, based on CD's. But deep is every 30, and stronger than some classes CD's.
    Then use it before the deep lands. deep is 45 seconds now and frozen orb is 1 minute. I have never died in a deep freezes as a druid both balance and resto. What kills me is the orb procs + deep freeze + bomb = gg.. I think mage damage is fuck up and needs a nerf but you can outplay it. Getting triple feared or psy fiend feared is a l2p issue I avoid that stuff as a healer all the time. I haven't played balance much but still working on it.
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-05-14 at 02:41 AM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  20. #60
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Oh, at least now I won't go down in a Deep Freeze, I'll be left with 15% of my health! Take that, you mages!

    EDIT:

    On a more serious note, make Resi reduce CC duration. Thanks.


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