Blizzard: Mages Can Do No Wrong

[Yvaelle]

It's been said many times in this thread that only the healer can dispell deep, so if they hard switch to healer with deep up, can't dispell it.

Not to mention if the healer is always saving dispels for potential deep freezes, that means they are letting all CC's go full duration on their teammates - which kind of defeats the whole point of bringing a healer to 3's, it's not about the healing so much as the dispels - if the mage communities defense is that deep freeze isn't the problem because it can be dispelled, then effectively they are claiming that Deep Freeze is more overpowered than anyone else here is suggesting: because they are claiming it is the ability to prevent all defensive dispels from the enemy team. IMO they should pick a new defense right about now.

[Lumineus]

It's been said many times in this thread that only the healer can dispell deep, so if they hard switch to healer with deep up, can't dispell it.

Guess you need to roll healer double ret and hope the wizards didn't bring two mages XD

[emotivex]

Not to mention if the healer is always saving dispels for potential deep freezes, that means they are letting all CC's go full duration on their teammates - which kind of defeats the whole point of bringing a healer to 3's, it's not about the healing so much as the dispels - if the mage communities defense is that deep freeze isn't the problem because it can be dispelled, then effectively they are claiming that Deep Freeze is more overpowered than anyone else here is suggesting: because they are claiming it is the ability to prevent all defensive dispels from the enemy team. IMO they should pick a new defense right about now.

Saving dispels for potential deep freezes is bad play though. You are acting as if dispel is the only defense you have against deep freeze. Your team mates have defensives, they have peels, healers have HOTs/Shields/passive healing going on. On top of that, not every deep freeze means a kill - every orb/deep will mean a kill if you don't do anything about it, but that's how the game should be. If you didn't pop a defensive or play well to counter your enemies offensive cooldowns, you deserve to lose.

Deep is not threatening every 30 seconds, sure it builds their momentum if they have the healer in some kind of CC when they deep, but it won't always mean a kill, and you're forgetting all the pressure/momentum you can get out in between those deeps. Mage damage is revolved around deep, specifically deep orb - it's why you never see RMP going for a kill usually without dance/deep/orb up, because it's incredibly difficult to do so.

It still comes down to buff stacking. It's ridiculous the burst they can put out with those trinket buffs stacked up. But have you ever been switched to by an UH DK with full CDs and buffs up as a healer? He pops AMS or IBF so he is immune to peels and goes balls out and you can die in literally an asphyxiate + double grip (to interrupt casts). Without those buffs up from trinkets, they are manageable, Mages are the same, so are Rogues.

If Mages can always one-shot every deep, how do they lose duels? Check out Tich Durotar, plenty of Mages lose duels lol, if they don't - they certainly don't win the duel within 30 seconds unless the difference in skill/gear is miles apart.

I barely even play my Mage and I can see that deep is not the problem and that if they lost deep in the current meta they would be hopeless lol.

[Yvaelle]

Saving dispels for potential deep freezes is bad play though.

It is, I'm glad you agree, that was my point.

Your team mates have defensives, they have peels, healers have HOTs/Shields/passive healing going on. On top of that, not every deep freeze means a kill - every orb/deep will mean a kill if you don't do anything about it, but that's how the game should be. If you didn't pop a defensive or play well to counter your enemies offensive cooldowns, you deserve to lose.

If Deep Freeze were on a 1 minute cooldown like Shadowdance or Power Shot / ~Beast Within, Frost Mages would be in the same general position as rogues or hunters - with some notable exceptions. First and foremost, Deep Freeze is every 30 seconds, and any remotely competent mage is going to orb+freeze, not just like... freeze->hop around spamming lance like you seem to be suggesting? Regarding healer CC during their burst cycle - hunters are the only one of that cabal that compare via scatter->trap, rogues have blind on a 2 minute cooldown, but can't consistently CC a healer during their dance (to compensate, they also have smoke bomb). The important thing is that first point though, nobody, no team has powerful enough defensives to pop a cooldown every 30 seconds indefinitely - that means the mage only needs to last 3-5 Deep Freeze cycles before they are guarenteed to score a kill (if they pick their targets based on who has the fewest 'outs', which they should be doing).

Mages have Polymorph and Counterspell for Every Deep Freeze, and Circle of Frost for every second Freeze. A rogue by contrast can Kidney to initiate their dance (or Cheap Shot if they are in a hurry), but that means they begin their dance with reduced energy - reducing their damage output. Alternately a rogue can forgo a stun->dance for additional burst, but at the cost of allowing their kill target to react with a non-stun-breaking cooldown such as Heroic Leap or Psychic Scream (not everyone has a 15 second stun trinket like mages do).

Deep is not threatening every 30 seconds, sure it builds their momentum if they have the healer in some kind of CC when they deep, but it won't always mean a kill, and you're forgetting all the pressure/momentum you can get out in between those deeps. Mage damage is revolved around deep, specifically deep orb - it's why you never see RMP going for a kill usually without dance/deep/orb up, because it's incredibly difficult to do so.

Deep is threatening every 30 seconds, threatening doesn't mean "Deep kills someone every 30 seconds" it means "Deep gets at least one major cooldown every 30 seconds" which is absolutely true - by your own admission, if you don't use a cooldown to counter deep freeze, you die. The healer should always be in CC during Deep Freeze, you have spammable CC's and play in multi-spam CC comps like Shatreeplay / MLD - there is no excuse for the enemy healer to not be CC'd during every deep freeze.

Mage damage is balanced around Orb, not deep - mage pvp-opness is premised around the absurdly low cooldown of deep freeze. With that said, its Entirely possible to shatter many classes using Nova or procs without a deep freeze active. It's also possible for RMP to score kills without deep+orb during the rogues burst (particularly shadowblades+dance) if the mage is busy CC'ing - but since Deep Freeze has a divisible cooldown to shadowdance, it will always be up every rogue burst cycle with minimal coordination.

It still comes down to buff stacking. It's ridiculous the burst they can put out with those trinket buffs stacked up. But have you ever been switched to by an UH DK with full CDs and buffs up as a healer? He pops AMS or IBF so he is immune to peels and goes balls out and you can die in literally an asphyxiate + double grip (to interrupt casts). Without those buffs up from trinkets, they are manageable, Mages are the same, so are Rogues.

I play an Unholy DK, I know exactly how strong their burst is - and it's very impressive - it's also once every 3 minutes for Gargoyle + Frenzy + IBF, or every 5 minutes for Empowered Rune Weapon. Compare to 30 seconds for Deep Freeze, 10 seconds for Frost Orb, 60 seconds for Shadowdance. I agree a DK during Gargoyle+Frenzy+full runes is comparable to a deep+orb: he just gets to try it once, for every six deep+orb's a mage does.

If Mages can always one-shot every deep, how do they lose duels? Check out Tich Durotar, plenty of Mages lose duels lol, if they don't - they certainly don't win the duel within 30 seconds unless the difference in skill/gear is miles apart.

Nobody is suggesting a mage scores a kill every 30 seconds via Deep Freeze, but they DO get major defensive cooldowns once every 30 seconds - which no other class comes anywhere even remotely close to. A rogue can get major defensive cooldowns once every minute, a spriest, hunter, or destro lock about the same (duels are a joke, let's stick to talking about real pvp btw). Pick any class and I can list to you how many deep freezes they can survive consistently before they run out of cooldowns - the next time they die.

I barely even play my Mage and I can see that deep is not the problem and that if they lost deep in the current meta they would be hopeless lol.

They'd still be the best control class in arenas, even without Deep Freeze - they'd also still be able to shatter people for just as big a burst as they currently can - they just wouldn't be able to do it while also denying the enemy the ability to respond. I'm not, and I don't think anyone is honestly suggesting - that Deep Freeze should be removed, but the cooldown is way too short for what it allows mages to do (get cooldowns every 30 seconds).

[emotivex]

*snip*

Mage can't deep + orb every 30 seconds. Orb is a 1 minute cooldown. Every second deep, you will generally cop an orb as well. If you don't, it's because deep has been used as a peel or CC instead (which is also common depending on comp you play/versing).

Sorry if I sound condescending in my post tone, but if you are having to pop multiple defensives every single deep freeze, you are doing something majorly wrong. On my disc I only ever pop a defensive when I see deep orb, if I see a deep and deep only, it's not necessary as counter pressure and peels is MORE than enough to counter that kind of deep. Especially if you have managed to dispel the frost bomb applied just before it.

Generally in that 30 seconds until the next deep (when you know it will be a deep orb) you use it to counter pressure them while their pressure is low. The only Mage comp I can think of where this is difficult is versus God Comp. But that's a comp balance issue - too much CC/utility (Druid with Iceblock, Spriest with fast MD/lifeswap/grip, along with Mage control).

If orb was available every deep then yeah, ridiculous, but it's not. So stop playing against Mages like it is.


Edit: Also - I didn't say deep gets a cooldown every 30 seconds. I said it gets a cooldown every deep orb, which is once a minute. Hell, I've healed games where the opposing teams deep orb doesn't even need me to pop a cooldown due to my team mates coordinating somewhat. The one deep orb that will DEFINITELY force defensives, is the one where the Mage has Incanters + On Use trinket + Veins up (plus god forbid any PVE trinket procs or Orc racial, which I agree are stupid). It's usually just after the opener.

[Deleted]

Mages have always been favored by GC. Noxxic rankings for DPS has all 3 specs in the top 5 for most of the gear level rankings.

Its burns me all the time when I think about it.

In PvP they have stupid amounts of control.

Yeah cause noxxic is sooo knowledgeable. And all mage specs are atop of the dps meters.

My god what people thinks, make me laugh .

[Yvaelle]

Mage can't deep + orb every 30 seconds. Orb is a 1 minute cooldown. Every second deep, you will generally cop an orb as well. If you don't, it's because deep has been used as a peel or CC instead (which is also common depending on comp you play/versing).

I was thinking of Frost Bomb not Orb when I said that, yes.

Sorry if I sound condescending in my post tone, but if you are having to pop multiple defensives every single deep freeze, you are doing something majorly wrong. On my disc I only ever pop a defensive when I see deep orb, if I see a deep and deep only, it's not necessary as counter pressure and peels is MORE than enough to counter that kind of deep. Especially if you have managed to dispel the frost bomb applied just before it.

Dispelling the frost bomb before the deep (or dispelling the deep for that matter) is kind of relying on the frost mage or his teammates to not CC the enemy healer correctly before going for their kill cycle. MLD and Shatreeplay should always be CC'ing before they set up their bomb/freeze/DP. As disc you are in the unique position of almost always having a PW: Shield active on the enemy mage teams kill target (identifiable by who they are running out of cooldowns / who they keep bursting).

Druids, Hpals and Mistweavers all have to respond to burst reactively - which in the case of a properly executed shatter without a cooldown - means they don't get a chance to respond. Only Disc and Rshams (Earth Shield on kill targets) get to respond pre-emptively to burst, and it's not coincidence that they are the best arena healers by a good distance - with Rdruids a distant third only when playing with a Shadowpriest (who covers healers/shields when the rdruid is cc'd - but note how some kind of spammable shield is practically mandatory for every arena team right now to survive burst).

If orb was available every deep then yeah, ridiculous, but it's not. So stop playing against Mages like it is.

Orb is good, it's Hardly necessary to Bomb+Shatter someone in a Deep Freeze. The real purpose of Frozen Orb is to generate procs (for instants), not to deal burst damage during a kill cycle.

[emotivex]

Druids, Hpals and Mistweavers all have to respond to burst reactively - which in the case of a properly executed shatter - means they don't get a chance to respond. Only Disc and Rshams (Earth Shield on kill targets) get to respond pre-emptively to burst, and it's not coincidence that they are the best arena healers by a good distance - with Rdruids a distant third only when playing with a Shadowpriest (who covers healers/shields when the rdruid is cc'd - but note how some kind of spammable shield is practically mandatory for every arena team right now to survive burst).

I agree, and it's why Disc/Resto Sham are the two most prominent healers at the moment. Work needs to be done with the other healers in order to fix this though - Paladins especially, as they have no passive healing or absorbs that mean anything. It has always been their problem and I am surprised they are still in that state. They are only ever strong at the beginning of every expansion where literally games are won within the first 30-45 seconds due to melee cleaves being overpowered.

Orb is good, it's Hardly necessary to Bomb+Shatter someone in a Deep Freeze. The real purpose of Frozen Orb is to generate procs (for instants), not to deal burst damage during a kill cycle.

Orb is what I base my decision making around mostly, it's extremely rare that my partner(s) will die in a deep without an orb unless the opposing team have set up a perfect CC chain on me. And if they have set up a perfect CC chain on me, then that really comes back to me and my partners getting outplayed or outcomped (and there will always be rock/paper/scissors in any MMO). Orb alone is 80k+ damage in a deep freeze, far from insignificant. Nerf Incanters/trinkets/buff stacking, then if Mages are still a problem, look at Orb imo, you could even make it so it doesn't deal damage to enemy players - just snares them. Fair nerf that I would welcome.

[WarTV]

the pvp community is sick of mages, but blizzard is making sure that they use their power to stop us from voicing our disgust with mages.

[TJ]

Remove Shatter and Mages might as well be deleted from the game lol.

Here's one for you complainers: Get better, Mages fixed.

Yeah because when you get better at PvP you magically get a button that stops you being crit by 80k ice lances and 100k+ ffb's.

[Beefkow]

Lol.... all of these mage tears... YUM YUM!!!

Anyhow, did you know that unholy dks aren't allowed to crit over 40k??? cool fact eh? and did you know that warriors have to pop 3 min cooldowns to pull off 60k+ crits? oh nvm you can just cc the warrior.

[draconith1]

Has anyone thought of just blanket silencing, stunning, or ccing a mage when they see deep freeze go out? It's really not that hard.

[TJ]

Has anyone thought of just blanket silencing, stunning, or ccing a mage when they see deep freeze go out? It's really not that hard.

No, none of us thought of that. Thanks, Mages are now balanced.

[draconith1]

No, none of us thought of that. Thanks, Mages are now balanced.

things you can easily use to stop mage damage in a deep freeze by preventing them from getting a good shatter combo

DK

Double grip
strangulate
gnaw
mind freeze
hungering cold

Druid

cyclone
bash
solar beam
ursuls vortex
maim
pounce

Hunter

scatter shot
freezing trap
silencing shot
pet stuns
wyvern sting

Paladin

Repentance (you guys seem kinda fucked, thank god for teamates though amirite?)

Priest

MC
Silence
fear

Rouge

blind
cheapshot
garrote
gouge
kick
kidney shot
sap

Shaman

hex
windshear

warlock

death coil
demon charge
fears
shadowfury
rainbow bridge

Warrior

concussion blow
gag order
spell reflect (team and self.)
intercept
shockwave
throwdown

Just interrupting the mage for a second on his deep freeze is enough to seriously gimp his pressure, if you can't be sure that you or a team member your playing with has SOMETHING cc wise on that list then you deserve to be forced to use defensive cooldowns. If you're forced to use defensive cooldowns because you were repeatedly unable to effectively cc then die in a deep because of it you then deserve to lose because you were outplayed. Combine CC with proper use of defensive cooldowns and dispels and the mage is no longer scary.

[Deleted]

Always love these threads! Mages are OP and it will NEVER change. Get used to it.

[worsthitmanNa]

You said all you had was divine shield to stop mages. You have a trinket and partner as well. You can pre-wall it wall it with divine protection.

[TJ]

things you can easily use to stop mage damage in a deep freeze by preventing them from getting a good shatter combo

DK

Double grip
strangulate
gnaw
mind freeze
hungering cold

Druid

cyclone
bash
solar beam
ursuls vortex
maim
pounce

Hunter

scatter shot
freezing trap
silencing shot
pet stuns
wyvern sting

Paladin

Repentance (you guys seem kinda fucked, thank god for teamates though amirite?)

Priest

MC
Silence
fear

Rouge

blind
cheapshot
garrote
gouge
kick
kidney shot
sap

Shaman

hex
windshear

warlock

death coil
demon charge
fears
shadowfury
rainbow bridge

Warrior

concussion blow
gag order
spell reflect (team and self.)
intercept
shockwave
throwdown

Just interrupting the mage for a second on his deep freeze is enough to seriously gimp his pressure, if you can't be sure that you or a team member your playing with has SOMETHING cc wise on that list then you deserve to be forced to use defensive cooldowns. If you're forced to use defensive cooldowns because you were repeatedly unable to effectively cc then die in a deep because of it you then deserve to lose because you were outplayed. Combine CC with proper use of defensive cooldowns and dispels and the mage is no longer scary.

Throwdown and Gag Order have been removed from the game (Gag Order against players) and you're assuming for every time the Mage can put out pressure that you have access to all of the abilities listed, which is not the case. Listing abilities doesn't really help anyone since some of the things you can't use at the time etc etc, it's all situational. Why do you list Sap also?

[Verain]

Mages were built to be glass cannons, in almost every single game that has ever been ever created like EVER! people that complain that mages are always one of the top 5 dps classes and/or specs, need to really think about what you are talking about, they will always be glass cannons they will always do devastating amounts of damage, thats what a damned mage is!

Actually in this game, there are four pure classes, and way more damage specs. Being a "glass cannon" is meaningless in PvE, where a tank with a foot long dick is taking all the hits and healers are healing everyone and you're free to play chess in the background (which usually involves dodging mechanics while DPSing).

Mages are intended to be solid in PvE. In fact, most of their issues have come from the fact that they are asked to hold still too much in PvE in order to turn out good numbers. I don't really think that "Noxxic's rankings" is a great thing to judge on. Raidbots overall isn't so bad. "Raidbots top 100" tends to show mages overperforming, mostly because fire is an RNG spec (aka, the same mage's performance can vary more per pull than if he was playing, say, a mutilate rogue with the same skill). I would dismiss arguments made at mage PvE performance with these valid reasons, instead of something that doesn't have much application outside of tabletop gaming- or at the very least, outside of group PvP.

The "glass cannon" idea is built from a different mold. Do you really think that in arena, the mage is normally the kill target, for instance? Do your mages normally die on whatever PvE fights are progression for your guild? Does it take more skill to survive as a PvE mage than a PvE warlock, or death knight, or fury warrior?

[Deleted]

"WHAT?! USE COOLDOWNS BASED ON ME GETTING CC'D OR HAVING TO DISPEL THINGS?! UNTHINKABLE!!!!!"

Is what 95% of players who rage about Mages actually are like.

---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 05:47 PM ----------



Okay, and that's the only way we really do any damage.

Unfrozen Frost Bombs hit like a wet noodle (especially non crit, non frozen frost bombs) in comparison to one in a Deep. Ice Lance w/o FoF does like... what, 1k damage? Casting Frostbolt puts us in danger zone with the thousands of interrupts and silences there are in the game. WHAT OTHER SPELL DO WE HAVE, PEOPLE?!

Seriously. All you whiners need to get a Mage to 90 and realize that we don't have a huge toolkit for damage. Outside of a deep and without any procs, our damage is just non-existent.

rogues dont do any dmg outside of dance & opener's and they are nerfing us. why would you be any different. just make mages actually cast again rather than this "jump jump hi i has dem procs" playstyle.

[Verain]

Why do you list Sap also?

Lol obviously when a mage deeps my healer, I should instruct my Sheepverain or Rootverain to go and sap him. MY EYES ARE OPENED!