Blizzard: Mages Can Do No Wrong

[Yvaelle]

Shadow has basically been the best spec this entire Expansion so far (besides the first half of season 12, that title goes to Warriors). Shadow is better than Frost. But Mages usually get a bad rep because they can kill you in a global and have always historically been the "scrub killer" class.

There are twice as many frost mages in the world top 100 right now than shadowpriests. Shadow has seen monumental outcry since beta, has been significantly nerfed every patch since then (5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3) - and likely won't be present in the top 100 after 5.3. People love to make this claim that "Shadow is better than Frost", I'd really love to hear someone explain why they think that - or provide numbers to support it.

Shadow has been secretly Overpowered for the last 6 months but nobody jumps on Shadow because its a hybrid. Hybrids are much less complained about over something like a Mage or a Warrior or a DK or any pure DPS class when its Overpowered because people hate being killed by one shot macros.

Having counter-able ramp-up and burst is more justifiable to die to than dying inside a deep freeze or shockwave, or in a single GCD. That's what balance should look like - no class should have the ability to kill someone without giving them an opportunity to respond. That means that the very nature of TfB was OP, the very nature of bugged Stampede was OP, the very nature of Mind Blast in Cataclysm was kind of OP(I only had like 15% crit chance, but if I crit during wings, I could almost 100-0 someone). Full DoTs + Devouring Plague + Mindbender can kill someone over the course of six seconds - but the difference between killing someone over 4-6 GCDs vs 1 GCD is a world of difference.

It gives you time to peel the Mindbender or LoS the Insanity or use a damage reduction cooldown or ask for a dispel. As strong as Unholy DK or Ret burst is - they are good models for what burst should look like - it's not a random chance to instantly kill your opponent from 100%-0% - but it's a period of recognizable (and thus peelable) higher pressure to which you can respond. Frost mages, shockwave+TfB, Shadowblade+Shadowdance, Intimidation+Bugged Stampede all deny the opponent the opportunity to respond while also delivering burst that often times, even without the control - wouldn't give you time to respond anyways. That kind of burst as a whole is problematic.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Because Divine Protection can be used while stunned, right?
Oooooh wait, it can't. And its been said multiple times in this thread that mages also have a partner, usually a fear-heavy class that can CC the living hell out of your teammates.

That's odd. Most other classes can only push for a kill every 1-2 minutes, based on CD's. But deep is every 30, and stronger than some classes CD's.

Try using Divine Protection before the Deep comes. Good players know when the next Deep Freeze is about to happen. Use it before the timer runs down.

[Yvaelle]

Try using Divine Protection before the Deep comes. Good players know when the next Deep Freeze is about to happen. Use it before the timer runs down.

And then expect the deep to get delayed 10 seconds, then hit you as soon as Protection ends?

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Having counter-able ramp-up and burst is more justifiable to die to than dying inside a deep freeze or shockwave, or in a single GCD. That's what balance should look like - no class should have the ability to kill someone without giving them an opportunity to respond.

So what you're saying is......every class should have counter-able burst windows. Every class's damage should be able to be mitigated. Sounds like never-ending games to me. That's too balanced, and completely unenjoyable gameplay. While I admit that there are notable offenders in the game that have the ability to burst someone down in too short of a time, that definition of balance right there is just not sound. Your idea of Unholy DK or Ret burst being the model for every class's burst is a fantastic idea. Unfortunately if you homogenize the classes, nobody is going to want to play this game anymore. Nobody wants to play a game where every class is the same.

Fix the abilities of classes to single-handedly burst someone down in a 4-6 GCD window while the opponent has no opportunity to respond, and make it so healers can't top players off in 1-2 globals, and you have yourself a fun game again. I've been saying for months that putting the CC break trinket on a 1 minute CD will make the game better. But what do I know, I'm just a lowly game design student.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 08:59 PM ----------

That's 10 seconds of delay on damage. 10 seconds to set up more CC on the mage. 10 seconds for healer CDs to come back up. 10 seconds is also enough time for a healer dispel to come back off CD. 10 seconds is a TON of time. I'm not defending that mage burst is fair. It really isn't, and I play a mage. I'm just saying that the outcries are a little over the top most of the time.

[Valedus]

Try using Divine Protection before the Deep comes. Good players know when the next Deep Freeze is about to happen. Use it before the timer runs down.

WTF? Like seriously? Right. Yeah, let's just KNOW when an instant cast is coming... and if the mage has a brain he will notice his damage is lowered by 40%, or see the buff, and not deep. Nice suggestion.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:01 PM ----------

So what you're saying is......every class should have counter-able burst windows. Every class's damage should be able to be mitigated. Sounds like never-ending games to me. That's too balanced, and completely unenjoyable gameplay. While I admit that there are notable offenders in the game that have the ability to burst someone down in too short of a time, that definition of balance right there is just not sound. Your idea of Unholy DK or Ret burst being the model for every class's burst is a fantastic idea. Unfortunately if you homogenize the classes, nobody is going to want to play this game anymore. Nobody wants to play a game where every class is the same.

Fix the abilities of classes to single-handedly burst someone down in a 4-6 GCD window while the opponent has no opportunity to respond, and make it so healers can't top players off in 1-2 globals, and you have yourself a fun game again. I've been saying for months that putting the CC break trinket on a 1 minute CD will make the game better. But what do I know, I'm just a lowly game design student.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 08:59 PM ----------

That's 10 seconds of delay on damage. 10 seconds to set up more CC on the mage. 10 seconds for healer CDs to come back up. 10 seconds is also enough time for a healer dispel to come back off CD. 10 seconds is a TON of time. I'm not defending that mage burst is fair. It really isn't, and I play a mage. I'm just saying that the outcries are a little over the top most of the time.

It should be counterable to a point. You shouldn't have to worry that every 30 seconds will kill you. No other class has that sort of worry.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

WTF? Like seriously? Right. Yeah, let's just KNOW when an instant cast is coming... and if the mage has a brain he will notice his damage is lowered by 40%, or see the buff, and not deep. Nice suggestion.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:01 PM ----------



It should be counterable to a point. You shouldn't have to worry that every 30 seconds will kill you. No other class has that sort of worry.

There are addons that can tell you how much CD is left on a mage's deep freeze. And like I said, it delays the deep, meaning that your other CDs, like trinket and a healer dispel are coming back up sooner with less deep freezes. And once again, I never said it was fair. I'm just pointing out that there are measures that every class has to go up against a mage burst, and that the majority of community outcry comes from players that don't have any idea how to play against a mage.

[Wow]

GC cant protect you forever, balance is coming to mages.

He's kept it up for 6 years what going to stop him lol.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

I would also like to point out one glaring fact that EVERYBODY seems to not even notice.

Mages don't solo people from 100-0 in one Deep Freeze EVERY 30 seconds. It takes Frozen Orb and either a combination of an on-use spell power trinket or Incanter's Ward. The solo'ing of another person comes every minute in conjunction with Frozen Orb and on-use/Incanter's Ward.

Mages NEED other damage output from their partners to kill somebody every 30 seconds. Most Deep Freeze's without Frozen Orb only end up doing 200-250k damage. Not fair, but not kills, either. The only reason anybody ever complains about this is the short window that the damage comes in. Every single class can do 200-250k damage between 30 second windows. It isn't mage DAMAGE, it's the short burst window.

Nobody cares about 2s, it isn't balance. In 3s, you can EASILY disrupt a mage every minute when they pop CDs to do this. See Frozen Orb? Do SOMETHING to the mage. Anything. Losing one global as a mage means that you don't score a kill. Plain and simple.

[Mirishka]

We are aware that there are many players who have issues dealing with Mage burst capabilities, however we feel that the main problem right now isn't simply Deep Freeze or Frozen orb directly, but rather the damage increase caused by Incanter's Ward. When stacked with other damage increasing effects such as procs and Frost Mage mastery, it can add up to an additional 30% damage multiplier, which can be quite devastating against many opponents. Because Incanter's Ward is one of the bigger reasons for high Mage burst, we have plans to make changes to it in patch 5.3.

In an upcoming change to the patch 5.3 patch notes you will see that we are looking to change the maximum spell damage increase from 30% to 15% but have the effect duration increased to 25 seconds, up from 15 seconds. This will lower the damage coming from Frozen Orb, Frost Bomb and other skills during a Mages burst window, but that damage multiplier will just last for a bit longer.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...67?page=10#189

if you've been following the official forums, there's been many threads recently closed or deleted related to mage nerfs. yet, the threads regarding nerfs to other classes are not bothered with at all, especially the recent outcry against hunters. two-face much, blizzard?

now we have this condescending blue post which basically says it's our fault we're getting blown up by mages. our "issues dealing with mage burst capabilities," or lack thereof is forcing their hand.

i used to not put much credence to the cries of favoritism, especially when GC repeatedly denies there's none of it, but how can you look at these recent developments and not go hmmmmmmm? i can tolerate a lot of stuff, but the one thing that will get me to unsub is class favoritism.

Yes clearly Blizzard hates all but one of its classes. Clearly Blizz intends to piss off the millions of people who play the other classes. Clearly the blue post you linked is heavy handed and condescending, demeaning, yada yada...

Except it isn't.

Nowhere in that blue post does it say or even insinuate its OUR fault we die to mages. Quite oppositely they outright said "it can add up to an additional 30% damage multiplier, which can be quite devastating against many opponents." and then go on to state their intentions to nerf the damage by HALF.

And of COURSE they're locking topics. People like you go to the forums and rageragerageOMGrage over a perfectly reasonable tweet or blue post (as proven by this very topic) and start eleventy billion new topics all screaming the same goddamned thing: OMG WTF NERF MAGES BLIZZ.

Jesus Christ what is wrong with the reading comprehension around here? Ghostcrawler could post "I love crabs so much, that's why my avatar is a crab!" and people would twist that into some retarded statement like "OMG GC HATES WARRIORS, HIS LATEST TWEET PROVES IT. HE SAYS HE'D RATHER HAVE CRAB DNA INJECTED INTO HIS FACE THAN PLAY A WARRIOR, AND THAT ALL PPL WHO PLAY WARRIORS R BAD."

Seriously, that's how stupid some people around here sound.

[Sliske]

Full HP, no stamina buff, no shields / hots on me, healer in a POM poly

Deep Freezed

"Well, i'm dead"

Also applies to shadowpriests and rogues.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Full HP, no stamina buff, no shields / hots on me, healer in a POM poly

Deep Freezed

"Well, i'm dead"

Also applies to shadowpriests and rogues.

Obviously does not play this game and has irrelevant input on this topic.

[Verain]

Try using Divine Protection before the Deep comes. Good players know when the next Deep Freeze is about to happen. Use it before the timer runs down.

It's a good thing mages can't use gladiatorlosssa. Otherwise they might know when someone uses a defensive apropos of nothing.

[Lulbalance]

It's a good thing mages can't use gladiatorlosssa. Otherwise they might know when someone uses a defensive apropos of nothing.

did you really just bring up using that pos addon and expect not to lose creditability for anything you say ever? :s .

you really dont have to be amazing to know when deep is coming.. it's off cd, you eat a nova or he has fingers up and you have bomb on you.. 90% of mages aren't overly creative; you're gonna get deeped. lol.

OT - i honestly can believe how out of control this has gotten. IA is the problem.. the biggest problem. i dont like that they increased duration because now it's less of a giant red purge flag and more of a 'it's only 15% and it's up all the time' thing.. when 15% on trink and whatever other procs they have up is fk ton.

i really dont like this change :[. still no lock changes; guess i'm playing mage for another season ^^.

[Yvaelle]

i really dont like this change :[. still no lock changes; guess i'm playing mage for another season ^^.

Agreed, while mage burst is high - my complaint about mages has always been about their level of control - not their actual damage. Their damage occurs over too small a window - while your opponent is stunned and unable to respond. A more visible / counter-able burst cycle, and reduced control - would be a far better solution to fmages than the Incanter's Ward change.

[Lumast]

I still don't understand how you don't see that BUFFS were the major problem with mages. Nerfing IW is a step in the right direction. We'll see if it's enough (providing that's all that is in 5.3).

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Mages don't solo people from 100-0 in one Deep Freeze EVERY 30 seconds. It takes Frozen Orb and either a combination of an on-use spell power trinket or Incanter's Ward. The solo'ing of another person comes every minute in conjunction with Frozen Orb and on-use/Incanter's Ward.

I'd like to note that although it doesn't say it, frozen orb stops doing damage if you stun the mage, blanket silence, force an ice block, fear, sheep/hex, any real CC outside of interrupts will stop orb from doing damage for the duration of the CC.

[emotivex]

Agreed, while mage burst is high - my complaint about mages has always been about their level of control - not their actual damage. Their damage occurs over too small a window - while your opponent is stunned and unable to respond. A more visible / counter-able burst cycle, and reduced control - would be a far better solution to fmages than the Incanter's Ward change.

What control are you talking about? Kiting control? Because to nerf kiting control you need to also nerf melee mobility and interrupts/stuns/silences. Huge changes.

If you're talking about deep being off the global cooldown, hence enabling an instant deep -> imp cs on the healer kind of control, I agree - I don't think deep glyph should exist.

[Yvaelle]

What control are you talking about? Kiting control? Because to nerf kiting control you need to also nerf melee mobility and interrupts/stuns/silences. Huge changes.

If you're talking about deep being off the global cooldown, hence enabling an instant deep -> imp cs on the healer kind of control, I agree - I don't think deep glyph should exist.

Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.

[Mormolyce]

Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.

No, they realised that removing blanket silences would make healers a lot more powerful since there's so much instant healing in the game, and they can't do anything about instant heals without a huge impact on PVE, so they put it in the "big change next xpac" basket for now.

[emotivex]

Taking Deep Freeze off the global was a huge mistake.

When they wanted to remove the blanket silence from Counterspell - and then thought it would only be fair to also remove it from Spell Lock - and then realized how terrible that would be to warlocks so they reverted it...

What they should have done was recognized that locks are not mages, and removing the blanket silence from Counterspell doesn't mean they also have to do it to Spell Lock.

Off-GCD CC's, whether they come from pet stuns / sleeps, or psyfiends, or off-global deep freezes - are all terrible for balance. They let people take multiple 'turns' in the span of a single opponent turn.

Agreed on the Deep global thing.

But the CS thing I never agreed with, for the reasons the poster above stated... Seeing more 15+ minute 3s matches this expansion than I ever have before. Losing ranged blanket silence is a great idea and I am all for it (I played in TBC without Imp CS quite a bit), but only if instant cast damage/healing is nerfed. And to do this, you would need to nerf melee gap closers/interrupts. All big changes not really possible mid-expansion.