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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keythstonetltq View Post
    Darkfriend, is a fraction of a percent increase in gear optimization so important that it warrants defacing a whole website that provides a free service for the public to optimize their gear in the most efficient way (in terms of effort vs reward)? I think we can agree that the people looking for help in these forums would benefit exponentially more from practicing their rotation, fixing their UI, learning optimum CD usage in each fight, etc., rather than worrying about doing all the extra work finding out how to optimize their characters with much less efficient alternatives (again, relating to the time they would have to put in to get maybe 0.2% better results) and go through all the work of learning how to sim their characters and understand what results they are getting because they are afraid that askmrrobot is robbing them of precious dps because of the negative comments you have posted. I feel like you think you are doing the community as a whole a favor, but in reality you are probably doing more harm in the growth of warriors seeking help because they are now worrying that the website they are using is keeping their numbers down, when that could not be farther from the truth. They should be focusing those hours of research on practice because I guarantee it will net them more than the 1k dps they can get from gemming and reforging in a slightly different way. All I have had to do was check the box that makes sure that AMR enforces hit and exp cap.
    In a word, yes. Like I said, if you want something below best, use it. If you want best results, don't.

    For the record, I also dislike noxxic and icy veins guides because of how inaccurate they tend to be. I also tell people to not use simcraft for hard DPS numbers, but to use it for comparing between pieces for different types of fights, and for getting stat weights. I tell people if they want Arms help to go to Recky and not me because, while I can do decent with Arms in CMs, I haven't played it since the 5.2 changes and can't play it as well as he can.

    I'm not an employee of any of these people, so I have no interest in saying "OMG BEST THING EVER." If they want me to stop telling people to not use their site, they either need to hire me to fix it for them, or fix it to the extent that I can tell people "this is a good tool."

  2. #22
    Darkfriend, I deal with facts. Last month, you said we needed to have a different Str:Crit ratio without submitting evidence. We researched it and ran tests, found out you were right, and updated the weights. Yay! Everyone wins.

    Now you are claiming our optimizations for you are wrong, without evidence. So I simmed your character, 50,000 iterations for each trial. Mr. Robot's optimizations actually do better than your own. Your own gear gets DPS of 175,139 and Mr. Robot gets 175,187 with a 52 point margin of error.

    Optimize your gear on AskMrRobot.com
    From Mr. Robot: Find the best gear in your bags, help & faq, and Preview our combat log tool.
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  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    What part about DO NOT USE SIMCRAFT FOR ABSOLUTE DPS NUMBERS do you not understand? Using Sim-C stat weights, and checking my profile vs your default weights and my custom weights you're reforging/gemming scheme drops far more than it gains.

    If you're using Sim-C to get absolute DPS numbers...I'm not even going to keep arguing with you you're beyond hopeless.

    As for facts, again you're flat out wrong. I've given you stat weights time and time again, something you seem to have forgotten.

    EDIT: I just ran my own sims, imported the custom weights into AMR, and got no edits. So either sim-c is giving me worse stat weights than your default weights (haha not) or your default weights aren't as good as you think. Also, this shows that their is NO WAY your weights are better.

    Which is my point. Custom weights will always beat out default weights.

    Last thing, it's inaccurate ANYWAY since I had BS in place of DR which inflates the value of crit and slightly deflates strength.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-05-16 at 07:01 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    What part about DO NOT USE SIMCRAFT FOR ABSOLUTE DPS NUMBERS do you not understand?
    I don't believe it has anything to do with anybody not understanding, it's just that what your saying about not using it for absolute numbers but using it for stat weights is complete nonsense.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    I don't believe it has anything to do with anybody not understanding, it's just that what your saying about not using it for absolute numbers but using it for stat weights is complete nonsense.
    Not at all. It's accurate for comparisons between things, such as between haste and mastery in comparison to str (SEP) or DPS numbers between gear (running 50k sims and changing a piece of gear each time). But not for pure DPS numbers because sim-c still doesn't handle the rotation exactly correctly. Not to mention no fight this tier exactly match any of sim-c's models, which further harms the absolute numbers.

    Most of the confusion seems to come from people not understanding HOW to use the tools they have, and their relative strengths and weaknesses.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-05-16 at 07:18 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Not at all. It's accurate for comparisons between things, such as between haste and mastery in comparison to str (SEP) or DPS numbers between gear (running 50k sims and changing a piece of gear each time). But not for pure DPS numbers because sim-c still doesn't handle the rotation exactly correctly. Not to mention no fight this tier exactly match any of sim-c's models, which further harms the absolute numbers.
    Exactly why what you're saying is argumentative nonsense. Because producing a comparison between gear is exactly what Zoopercat did.

    How is it possible for Simulationcraft to not "handle the rotation exactly correctly", yet you trust it to produce SEP or dps gear comparisons? If an acceptably accurate simulation cannot be produced, then there is no basis for this entire dps min/max enterprise to begin with, unless you're receiving stat weights magically from the pewpew fairy.

    What statistical methodology justifies your "changing a piece of gear" standard of how big a change is acceptable between trials? (I'm guessing this is your problem with Zoopercat's analysis, or at least the pretense for your problem with it).

    Sounds like grasping at straws to me.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2013-05-16 at 07:33 AM.

  7. #27
    great site for me and what i do in wow, keep up the good work MrRobot people

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    Exactly why what you're saying is argumentative nonsense. Because producing a comparison between gear is exactly what Zoopercat did.
    You're comparing differences in gear to differences in reforges/gems, which are different. Two reasons.

    1.) Trinket specific, procs are modeled.

    2.) Gear differences generally have more than just a difference in secondary stats, generally you have things like additional strength, and the like, which also influences weights. For example, mastery gains value based on current strength. Lose strength, mastery loses relative strength. If you're comparing between gear pieces like haste/mastery bracers and crit/mastery bracers, you don't sim to see which is better, you do the math based on the 2nd stat SEP.

    What you're saying is the same reason in T14 mastery/haste was a problem for arms. Based on how you reforged changed the value of each stat, reforged all to haste and it gained value. Reforged all to mastery and it was better. Same holds true for comparison of secondary stats now.

    Again, ya'll don't understand how the tools work, and that's what is causing the confusion.

    But I've had enough. The evidence is clear. If AMR wants to say their default weights are better than custom weights, just laugh. So until AMR hires me to fix their site, or until another one of these threads pops up, peace, and if you need help, you have my btag.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-05-16 at 07:36 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    You're comparing differences in gear to differences in reforges/gems, which are different. Two reasons.

    1.) Trinket specific, procs are modeled.

    2.) Gear differences generally have more than just a difference in secondary stats, generally you have things like additional strength, and the like, which also influences weights. For example, mastery gains value based on current strength. Lose strength, mastery loses relative strength.

    What you're saying is the same reason in T14 mastery/haste was a problem for arms. Based on how you reforged changed the value of each stat, reforged all to haste and it gained value. Reforged all to mastery and it was better. Same holds true for comparison of secondary stats now.
    Unless you're sim'ing your character as-is to produce stat weights, optimizing the gearset, then iteratively repeating that process until the difference in dps number produced by the sim compared to to the last trial lacks statistical power, then there is no possible tool on earth that will ever make you happy. And nothing is stopping anyone from doing that themselves right now anyway. AMR is not substantively different in kind than anyone not iteratively zero'ing in on stat weights.

    And even then, if you are questioning the methodology of the simulation to begin with, then this entire process is a garbage-in / garbage-out enterprise and there is no factual way to demonstrate who is right about anything whatsoever. Unless you can make a valid case for "accuracy" versus "precision" in dps differences between result, this is all really just a bunch of handwaving.

    It's probably actually probably true that all of this in the end has a certain degree of handwaving about it, because the vast differences in mechanics from fight to fight in practice do make the minutiae of the whole beef you have with AMR like arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2013-05-16 at 07:44 AM.

  10. #30
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Not taking sides here.....I can sim my charater 5 times 50k iterations and it gives me +/- up to 700 dps swings. The comparison Askmrrob gave against Dark didn't tell the whole tale. That being said, I make sure to sim my own character after using AMR to get the quick reforge (sims take so long). I do this to verify the results. I have never had it tell me to change the reforges after using custom stats obtained from simcraft.

    It won't matter soon. Landsoul finally cracked an algorithim that had him stumped on his spreadsheet (LS spreadsheet fanboy.) These tools will be obsolete soon with any luck.

  11. #31
    Hi there Zoopercat. First I would like to say that AMR is a great tool and you guys do an awesome job of updating it and keeping up with current theorycraft. I'm not sure why DF hates you guys so much. I understand wanting to be exact and all but I personally don't have the time or the desire to run multiple programs that may or may not improve my dps by ~1%. If I were getting paid to play I would, but, sadly, I am not. I'll look at it in a positive light and say that maybe DF is helping to keep AMR on their toes and making AMR an even better tool for warriors. So, on to my question.

    I am having an issue with the BIS tool, sometimes it gives me this weird setup, i hope this link works. [mmo champ wouldn't let me post the link ]

    Basically it has me (a SMF Warrior) with a 2H sword. Any idea whats going on there?

    Thanks for your time

  12. #32
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotness View Post
    Hi there Zoopercat. First I would like to say that AMR is a great tool and you guys do an awesome job of updating it and keeping up with current theorycraft. I'm not sure why DF hates you guys so much. I understand wanting to be exact and all but I personally don't have the time or the desire to run multiple programs that may or may not improve my dps by ~1%. If I were getting paid to play I would, but, sadly, I am not. I'll look at it in a positive light and say that maybe DF is helping to keep AMR on their toes and making AMR an even better tool for warriors. So, on to my question.

    I am having an issue with the BIS tool, sometimes it gives me this weird setup, i hope this link works. [mmo champ wouldn't let me post the link ]

    Basically it has me (a SMF Warrior) with a 2H sword. Any idea whats going on there?

    Thanks for your time

    Their bis tool is garbage especially for trinkets

  13. #33
    I dont know who is right or wrong. Just need someone to tell me whether to use Brutal Talisman or the Twins trinket on my current setup..

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nturion/simple

    AMR tells me it is Brutal Talisman but when I swop, reforge and SIM.. it seems that it is twins

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senturion View Post
    I dont know who is right or wrong. Just need someone to tell me whether to use Brutal Talisman or the Twins trinket on my current setup..

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nturion/simple

    AMR tells me it is Brutal Talisman but when I swop, reforge and SIM.. it seems that it is twins
    IIRC brutual>gaze unless its TF.

  15. #35
    How about if both are upgraded to 530? Which is better. I used Brutal for this week.. uptime is about 20-23%. Gaze uptime is nearer to 40%. I haven't upgraded either.. still deciding between the two. Approaching valor cap so next week have to chose either to upgrade..

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    IIRC brutual>gaze unless its TF.

  16. #36
    You know I'm kinda impressed that zooper gets on here to help.
    I like seeing that.

    I think it's a really good sign when people who work for a product can say, "yea you are rite" and even defend their stuff.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    It won't matter soon. Landsoul finally cracked an algorithim that had him stumped on his spreadsheet (LS spreadsheet fanboy.) These tools will be obsolete soon with any luck.
    Cause everyone loves spread sheets, and if they don't well fuck them!
    "If you want to control people, if you want to feed them a pack of lies and dominate them, keep them ignorant. For me, literacy means freedom." - LaVar Burton.

  17. #37
    Lol, reading Darkfriend's garbage is always entertaining.

    Can you at least go join a guild like Blood Legion or similiar so I have a reason to bash you about how you take the game too seriously and should get a life?
    The irony of saying something like, "if you want to be the best and not mediocre" while being in some garbage guild just ruins it when you are trying to talk all high and mighty =\

    Diamond in the rough warrior right here people! Hire him asap like he says AMR, he's the one that is at the forefront of warrior theorycrafting and is always discovering new and exciting things about warrior stats.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    Lol, reading Darkfriend's garbage is always entertaining.

    Can you at least go join a guild like Blood Legion or similiar so I have a reason to bash you about how you take the game too seriously and should get a life?
    The irony of saying something like, "if you want to be the best and not mediocre" while being in some garbage guild just ruins it when you are trying to talk all high and mighty =\

    Diamond in the rough warrior right here people! Hire him asap like he says AMR, he's the one that is at the forefront of warrior theorycrafting and is always discovering new and exciting things about warrior stats.
    I always find it interesting how bads can't argue with the logic, so instead they resort to name calling.

  19. #39
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Keep it civil, please

  20. #40
    So far everytime I have used askmrrobot I have had really nice reforge-gains. Better than if I just went with my own reforging. Im not a hardcore theorycrafter and love the functionality of the site. My only true wish from the askmrrobot team is if they would create an addon to auto reforge at the reforge guy.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." -Alexander Tytler

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