Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Thanks i'm particularly interested in uptimes and such - the thing that is coming to my mind is that if they continue to make RPPM trinkets as default, with new gear haste will become better and better, while mastery doesn't scale up that well.

    EDIT: i'm assuming you are using cheat death for soaking something of some sort in HC lei shen
    p1 and p2 transition soaking the static shock alone... If your cloak is down and you get the 2nd static feint and cheat death will save you... When you get to it you will see why cheat death is OP.

    As for keeping things consistent I myself will be interested in the up times mainly on Lei shen as the uptime on boss will be the same every pull and I have over 200 pulls with haste gems :P

  2. #22
    -Snipped- ShC is giving me some really bizarre results right now. I'll go back later and see if I can analyze why.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-05-15 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #23
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Brazil ~
    Posts
    157
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Assa should never go crit. Something must have gone wrong or your itemlevel is really low.
    This might be the case for my rogue, since ShC is directing me towards Crit >> Haste (4166 crit rating vs 2383 haste rating): ShC Big Link o.O

    May I keep trusting that or just manual reforge to haste instead of crit? Keeping Mastery ones, ofc.


    Edit: Mugajak, ShadowCraft was totally crazy last night!
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  4. #24
    Yeah I'm not sure what the deal is with it just this moment. I was playing with various settings on T-Man's profile to show where haste and mastery intersect, and it couldn't decide if expertise was worth 1.4+ or <1.2, even with the same settings as I reached them different ways - which was moving haste and mastery around a LOT. No idea what was happening but hoping it's fixed or an issue with my computer so I can check again after raid tonight.

    And yes Drugshock, with no RPPM pieces (trinkets, meta), crit should be close to haste, quite possibly ahead.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Brazil ~
    Posts
    157
    @mugajak from what i read on SHC topic @ EJ, this is a know "error"

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo90910 View Post
    This issue has been explained numerous times in this forum. Please read threads back a bit next time. It's the case for a lot of characters, not only yours, and is due to having two local maxima close to another in the space of all reforges.

    i.e.: reforging haste gives more value to mastery, making it better than haste, making SC reforge mastery next time, making it worse than haste, and so on.
    Maybe thats what happening
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  6. #26
    No I point out that issue often for people who don't understand why haste and mastery switch places for stat ratings. I'm watching expertise take a 20% dive and return, in the same reforge/gem/settings, at different times. It's not happening anymore, so I'm not too worried about it, but it couldn't decide if expertise was close to crit or significantly better than everything else - and it wasn't dropping on reforge. I had it showing expertise at a low value with 1900 expertise, and a high value with 2540. It didn't make much sense.

    To finish my original thoughts, T-man's profile does indeed have haste > mastery for all reasonable setups I can see at the moment, with them coming pretty close in some situations. If for some reason you don't have stormlash and you're being a terrible person (or just selfish) and don't TotT on cooldown, mastery pulls ahead when you're in almost full haste in that specific gear set. Odd, but true. To note, mastery will retain an advantage when you've got time off-target or you're swapping targets when the first is still alive, for the DP ticks to continue hitting harder, but for single target Haste will on average pull ahead.

    As always, any individual should consult their own profile for ShC/SimC/any other spreadsheet/source you use, as well as basic logic, before deciding how to reforge/regem. If you're not extra-serious, following ShC blindly is very safe. Just make sure all the settings are set accurately for you.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-05-16 at 05:04 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    p1 and p2 transition soaking the static shock alone... If your cloak is down and you get the 2nd static feint and cheat death will save you... When you get to it you will see why cheat death is OP.

    As for keeping things consistent I myself will be interested in the up times mainly on Lei shen as the uptime on boss will be the same every pull and I have over 200 pulls with haste gems :P
    That's exactly why a asked you that - you are trying over and over the same fight, so RNG should be at minimum given the same enviroment.

    a little OT, i don't think i will be ever reaching lei shen HC my "hardcore" raiding days are finished - probably we will settle with 3 or 4 bosses HC down, we have still to finish normals.

  8. #28
    As with any simulator you need to apply a bit of common sense. Regemming and forging on my rogue from Mastery to Haste shows about a 400dps increase. That sounds really nice until you realise it is about a 0.1% difference. That assumes so much like the perfect RNG the perfect rotation etc etc.

    When we are dealing with these sorts of difference we need to accept that in the real world they are the same.

  9. #29
    EDIT: i'm assuming you are using cheat death for soaking something of some sort in HC lei shen
    Tbh cheat death is worth taking in 95% encounters.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    Tbh cheat death is worth taking in 95% encounters.
    I'm not sure on that, it would come down to the damage incoming. Effects like Cheat Death, Ardent Defender and Cauterize have a damage cap. While for Rogues, I can see Cheat Death being very strong. A lot of stuff that will proc Cheat Death can be avoided.

    However, I've come from a group where I have healers constantly whinging about incoming damage, and Elusiveness pure flat damage reduction is really strong, especially when stacked with other raid cooldowns.

    What situations do you have in mind that you feel Cheat Death is stronger?
    Last edited by Lith; 2013-05-16 at 12:28 PM.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Th1ghsofSteel View Post
    As with any simulator you need to apply a bit of common sense. Regemming and forging on my rogue from Mastery to Haste shows about a 400dps increase. That sounds really nice until you realise it is about a 0.1% difference. That assumes so much like the perfect RNG the perfect rotation etc etc.

    When we are dealing with these sorts of difference we need to accept that in the real world they are the same.
    It does matter when your trying to squeeze in that extra dps and wipe on 30mil.... The problem I have now found is AoE is going to be required at the end of the fight. As for the logs we I will post our Lei shen logs tonight with my mastery build, I know the average damage I should do in p1 is 30mil so if I go over or under on average I will know what is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lith View Post
    What situations do you have in mind that you feel Cheat Death is stronger?
    Lei shen heroic.... Cheat death WILL save you more times then once and your healers will thank you for it. The static does about 3mil nature damage split between everyone taking it. and it is advised to take it with a cd but with RNG you can some times get it twice.. feint + cheat death will save you when cloak is down.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lith View Post
    I'm not sure on that, it would come down to the damage incoming. Effects like Cheat Death, Ardent Defender and Cauterize have a damage cap. While for Rogues, I can see Cheat Death being very strong. A lot of stuff that will proc Cheat Death can be avoided.

    However, I've come from a group where I have healers constantly whinging about incoming damage, and Elusiveness pure flat damage reduction is really strong, especially when stacked with other raid cooldowns.

    What situations do you have in mind that you feel Cheat Death is stronger?
    See I thaught AD had a damage cap at some point, but it definately doesn't anymore, i can get hit by a point blank decap on LS hc10 and not die with just that up, and that hits for a good 3million or somin.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Th1ghsofSteel View Post
    As with any simulator you need to apply a bit of common sense. Regemming and forging on my rogue from Mastery to Haste shows about a 400dps increase. That sounds really nice until you realise it is about a 0.1% difference. That assumes so much like the perfect RNG the perfect rotation etc etc.

    When we are dealing with these sorts of difference we need to accept that in the real world they are the same.
    This simply isn't accurate. Haste-build simulations assume the exact same RNG and quality of play as mastery-build simulations- average RNG, perfect play (unless set otherwise). You can compare haste- and mastery-build play at lower play levels in SimC, if you think their play metric is close enough to what you do to be accurate.

    Either build with perfect RNG will do psychotic DPS - who wouldn't with Capacitance proccing every melee swing and 100% uptime on one (almost both - RSC has a 22s ICD) trinket(s)? In this case, mastery would do more anyway - a portion of haste's value is predicated on moving the average procs upward. If you get "perfect" RNG, that no longer matters.

    You're more likely interested in variance for the same level of play for each build - which SimC can tell you, again; at the top of the page next to DPS, with a chart showing the distribution of damages by simulation below.

    Common sense is still important - you'd have to change the sim around a bit to show periodic unpredictable 2-3s downtime in your rotation, increased resource gain, temporary (or permanent!) haste increases (primordius would be a nightmare to sim) - but that hardly makes the information irrelevant, nor does it make a "gut feeling" more accurate.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,552
    So after 20 pulls tonight I can say the difference is hardly any. the meta procs a lot more but the trinkets proc is pretty much the same.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lith View Post
    I'm not sure on that, it would come down to the damage incoming. Effects like Cheat Death, Ardent Defender and Cauterize have a damage cap. While for Rogues, I can see Cheat Death being very strong. A lot of stuff that will proc Cheat Death can be avoided.

    However, I've come from a group where I have healers constantly whinging about incoming damage, and Elusiveness pure flat damage reduction is really strong, especially when stacked with other raid cooldowns.

    What situations do you have in mind that you feel Cheat Death is stronger?
    Feint has a somewhat not-that-low cost, whether it is considered in terms of GCD or energy. Our priority still is to do the more damage possible, and I believe Feint should only be taken in encounters when it is absolutely mandatory (e.g. WotE 10 if you are soaking all sparks, Vizier 10, maybe even Lei Shen if you can groupsoak a 2nd static shock in interm#1). In the other hand, Cheat Death can save many pulls and keep you alive without having to lose DPS. Fails happen, and they happen a lot, not necessarily from you but from your raidmates as well (and we aren't even talking major fails, a mere lack of DPS can often kill you, in Lei Shen for example, balls living a few secs more than what they should do can proc CD).

    And the damage reduction granted by Elusiveness is only 15% on AoE damage (where Feint really matters).

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    Feint has a somewhat not-that-low cost, whether it is considered in terms of GCD or energy. Our priority still is to do the more damage possible, and I believe Feint should only be taken in encounters when it is absolutely mandatory (e.g. WotE 10 if you are soaking all sparks, Vizier 10, maybe even Lei Shen if you can groupsoak a 2nd static shock in interm#1). In the other hand, Cheat Death can save many pulls and keep you alive without having to lose DPS. Fails happen, and they happen a lot, not necessarily from you but from your raidmates as well (and we aren't even talking major fails, a mere lack of DPS can often kill you, in Lei Shen for example, balls living a few secs more than what they should do can proc CD).

    And the damage reduction granted by Elusiveness is only 15% on AoE damage (where Feint really matters).
    I've never really considered it from that point of view. Though I do like having Elusiviness in case I am forced into add tanking, be it from tank deaths or fixates from mobs. But I do agree with using it on progression fights. At the very least, it lets you live through mechanics and player errors long enough to see more of the fight.
    Last edited by Lith; 2013-05-17 at 10:27 AM. Reason: I somehow spammed the same post, sorry.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    So after 20 pulls tonight I can say the difference is hardly any. the meta procs a lot more but the trinkets proc is pretty much the same.
    The increase in procs shouldn't be directly noticeable. You're looking at what, a 10% haste shift? For every 10 procs, get another - that adds up in averaging, but you really won't see it, because when you're expecting <10 procs, it'll just shift your average up a touch, where for more fights (over hundreds) you get 3 procs instead of 2, or 4 instead of 3. If that were the only benefit of haste, it'd be crap =) but that does increase the value "a bit", and enough to make it worth using.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    And the damage reduction granted by Elusiveness is only 15% on AoE damage (where Feint really matters).
    15% of the original 100%, but 30% of what you're expecting to land. It's also worth noting, although I can't think of important examples this tier besides Lei Shen's final winds (which I'm pretty sure is just a debuff, and not an AoE), that Elusiveness reduces damage from debuffs that don't count as an AoE.

  18. #38
    Yeah, you can play over semantics, but the way I see it is that it only add 15% on the 50% Feint already provide. And you can add Council's stacks to Lei Shen's winds, which are indeed not reduced by regular Feint.

  19. #39
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    WHEREVER I WANT AINT NO ONE GONNA DO NOTHIN ABOUT IT IMMA T-REX
    Posts
    11,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Assa should never go crit. Something must have gone wrong or your itemlevel is really low.
    Shadowcraft has been telling me for awhile now to forge into Haste/Exp/Hit into Crit on pieces that already have Mastery (assuming hit cap), yet Haste is showing as second best on my actual Stats section. Sigh.

    My rogue hasn't been raiding much this expansion (to my sadness) so my ilvl is low, but I wouldn't classify it as "really low." I think she's around 498 or so.
    AbathurSnuggles: Blizzard Alpha Videos

    For Moderation Concerns, please contact a Global:
    TzivaDarsithisRaduxArleeSimcaElysiaZaelsino

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Shadowcraft has been telling me for awhile now to forge into Haste/Exp/Hit into Crit on pieces that already have Mastery (assuming hit cap), yet Haste is showing as second best on my actual Stats section. Sigh.

    My rogue hasn't been raiding much this expansion (to my sadness) so my ilvl is low, but I wouldn't classify it as "really low." I think she's around 498 or so.
    At lower ilvls crit and haste are very close in value and will swap places with each other in the ep order. At higher gear levels/with an RPPM item or two haste becomes clearly better than crit and you start having to balance it with mastery.

    On cheat: I've been saying the same thing as Dryaan for a while, not having to waste a bres when someone screws up is huge. The other weakness of elusiveness is rogues are already more survivable than most other classes, the the DR or elusiveness would have saved you then there are probably other people dead and on that first hit you'll survive anyway with cheat. Not all DR is created equal, there are two break points where DR is more valuable than others, when the DR prevents you from dying or when the DR prevents you from being in imminent danger of death. Feint on its own is generally sufficient to get you past one or both of those break points, additional DR past that is nice but not mandatory.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •