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  1. #1

    assassination rogues start going crit

    what are the soft and hard caps of mastery,haste, and crit ? and what % of mastery and haste i need before going crit. do i even go crit after a point. Only asking because shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com told me to one night.

  2. #2
    Assa should never go crit. Something must have gone wrong or your itemlevel is really low.

    Usually its like this:

    Before ~510 itemlevel and 1-2 RPPM items (Throne of Thunder dropped trinkets + legendary meta) Mastery > Haste=Crit
    After that its Mastery > Haste > Crit when you get 1 rppm item.
    If you have all 3 rppm items you can go Haste > Mastery > Crit. But thats not always the best route. (In short: haste builds may give you 1 % more patchwerk fight dps, but a higher variance in dps and lesser dps if you have to switch targets)

  3. #3
    Blue pretty much covered what you should be seeing, but to answer your questions directly-

    there are no relevant haste/mastery caps. The "soft caps" for haste would be the points at which you cap on energy - but even with 60,000 haste and being energy capped 100% of the time, you'd still get more attacks from haste - there's no hard cap. Mastery sees no caps at all - only crit caps, at higher numeric values than you ever need to worry about.

  4. #4
    Curious, do you have the Rune of Origination? it can drastically change your stat weights with just 1 rating difference.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinivus View Post
    Curious, do you have the Rune of Origination? it can drastically change your stat weights with just 1 rating difference.


    ilvl 522 with 4set name is Sideon on blackrock if you want to look me up but no i do not have a 522 RoO

  6. #6
    Almost all top-geared rogues still going mastery over haste even at 535+ ilvl.
    Those few who chose to go haste over mastery is not dominating WoL charts. Not even close.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Almost all top-geared rogues still going mastery over haste even at 535+ ilvl.
    Those few who chose to go haste over mastery is not dominating WoL charts. Not even close.
    Basically mastery is a solid and straight forward dps increase - it just makes our poisons/envenoms/VW hit harder; so no matter the situation mastery brings always and linearly his weight.

    Haste on the contrary impacts onto energy regen, attack speed and RPPM trinkets; while these are definitely dps increases they are tied to the enviroment and specifically on our uptime on boss. If we have bad luck and need to move all of these advantages are lost.

    Haste and mastery have a breakpoint where it's better to balance out the two; still going full mastery bring better practical results than going full haste.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    So even if shadowcraft says to gem and reforge haste, we should still go mastery?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    So even if shadowcraft says to gem and reforge haste, we should still go mastery?
    I got 534 ilvl. Reforged and gemmed mastery. Reforging and regemming haste gives me +600 DPS (according to ShC).
    It's not worth it.

  10. #10
    You have to choose... more 'linear' and consistent damage (mastery) vs bigger damage spikes with the risk of lower damage times (haste).

    At the end the difference is not that big between them, although we can say that mastery is the safe option i find more fun playing with haste. Balancing them didn't work for me.

  11. #11
    What is a good ratio of Mastery to Haste for say 522 ilvl?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    So even if shadowcraft says to gem and reforge haste, we should still go mastery?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    I got 534 ilvl. Reforged and gemmed mastery. Reforging and regemming haste gives me +600 DPS (according to ShC).
    It's not worth it.
    Well, people with high ilvl is just reaching the point at which simulators like shadowcraft suggest you to go mastery, but when you do it mastery EP lowers while haste EP increases - everytime you hit "reforge" it changes.

    Mastery anyway has more practical advantages than haste.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 02:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    What is a good ratio of Mastery to Haste for say 522 ilvl?
    Depends on your gear. Run some Simc or follow Shadowcraft, it's your best bet.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    hmm, ilevel 533 2 both trinkets and meta and currently on lei shen hc

    Shadowcraft tells me regem / reforge haste

    Agility2.800
    Yellow Hit2.190
    Expertise Rating1.429
    Haste Rating1.288
    Mastery Rating1.219
    Crit Rating1.147

    Even tho for my class this is a single target fight with hardly any target switching, haste "should" come out a head yes?

  14. #14
    A single target fight with no target switching is the situation most favorable to haste. If you actually are pulled off boss for a moment, your autoattacks can't fire. So if haste was saying you could swing at time t+1 instead of the t+1.5 with a mastery reforge, the net effect is, you aren't swinging either way. When you finally get back on the boss at t+2, you get your instant attack with both hands. In other words, the predicted advantage of haste doesn't materialize if you are pulled off boss because of this.

    This is way worse if you are pulled off boss long enough to cap energy, or even get enough energy that you have to clip more envenoms that you would otherwise have done.

    Haste is the "easiest to disrupt" stat. Mastery is probably the hardest, because you at least will still have deadly poison ticking.


    If shs says you have better results out of haste, I would not reforge to haste unless the predicted advantage over mastery was at least 2% or more. Exceptions would be if I was reforging for a particular fight specifically where I knew I would be able to patchwerk the whole fight, but in general, I would demand that the haste topend actually exceed the mutilate topend by a bit before going that way.

  15. #15
    Looking @ Tman EPs, haste is above mastery, but by a mere 0.069; it's a very very little difference.

    If you reforge to haste, what calls SC you to do? Is mastery becoming then better? Probably you've reached the "soft point".

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    This is my EP AFTER reforgeing and regeming to haste...

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/eu/kazzak/taishici/

    187049.3 DPS in full haste build

  17. #17
    Hum, haste still ahead - well with an even smaller difference than before (.051).

    You can easilty run with that reforge/regem, and then compare your performance. I can see haste being better, it's the actual performace that doesn't change much. Would really like to looks at some WoL from you if you ahve the will to share them (both for mastery and haste reforges).

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    I was full haste last reset but I will try mastery for this one, I pretty much know my expected DPS for Lei shen hc p1 p2 and just about p3 so when we get there I can pretty much tell you what is better but for now I can only link you my haste logs. (Mastery will be up tonight) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-lfbuo2spv1yzsomq/ all our raids are live logged so it will defo be up

  19. #19
    Thanks i'm particularly interested in uptimes and such - the thing that is coming to my mind is that if they continue to make RPPM trinkets as default, with new gear haste will become better and better, while mastery doesn't scale up that well.

    EDIT: i'm assuming you are using cheat death for soaking something of some sort in HC lei shen
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-05-15 at 02:01 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Hum, haste still ahead - well with an even smaller difference than before (.051).

    You can easilty run with that reforge/regem, and then compare your performance. I can see haste being better, it's the actual performace that doesn't change much. Would really like to looks at some WoL from you if you ahve the will to share them (both for mastery and haste reforges).
    Problem is that it's hard to compare WoL fights because they can be so different. if you've got a boss on farm and the mastery reforge is a clutch 1 person alive kill and the haste reforge is a masterfully executed kill with perfect RNG and a shorter fight, you're naturally going to have it in favor of haste reforging.

    what you need to do is do 10 kills, 5 with haste and 5 with mastery, each with comparable circumstances and fight length, and average them. and even then, anything within a 1% difference can be attributed to RNG because you're never going to have 10 fights that are exactly X minutes long with Y average uptime and Z cooldown alignment.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

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