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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Well, for me it's DP for Horridon, Council, Tortos, Megaera, Twins since I have almost 100% tank time there.
    For the fights where I don't have to tank for extended period of time (like Jin-rokh with me taking 3 out of 4 tank throws just because it happened that way during learning, obvious Ji-Kun with almost 1 minute of inactivity, Durumu/IQ - we still 2 tank it because other RL wants to be safe on tank side, and the rest, since they require tank swap in some form) it's HA. Since it covers most of the time that boss spends hitting on me.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  2. #22
    Snipped from the main Prot thread, because relevant:

    Ok, so....still puzzled. Here's last night's HC Tortos logs for me: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cd...?s=4378&e=4758
    ShotR uptime of 63.9%. That's hardcapped Exp, 15001 haste and using DP, on boss only fulltime (lolmonk-kite). It's as close to tank-n-spank as I can get, and aside from stomp stuns, I had full boss uptime.

    I'm just not seeing how posters can be getting 70-75% given what average gear levels are (without extremely lucky AND consistent procs of DP/GC, anyway). I had 26 DP and 16 GC procs. Maybe I'm just fundamentally missing something, though....

    On a related note, raid last week (and this week) has been absolute shite. We've been smashing our heads into Primo HC for almost 90 attempts, after downing Durumu in ~30 and Twins in 4. Between attendance issues and an overwhelming feeling of embarrassment for our shitty progress, we ended up wiping for like 45 mins to HC Megaera, so I ended up going back to HA on Meg (and keeping it on JiKun and Durumu) instead of DP, as I was getting lower uptimes with DP than I was with HA still. Small sample size, sure, but do I just need more haste? Or was it bad luck? I still like DP on a few fights, but not really digging it as the "go-to" talent based off of what I've seen the past few weeks when taking it.

    PS - If anyone has any tips on italicized rant (specifically Primordius HC), please let me know before I put a bullet in my head on Thursday.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 12:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  3. #23
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-15 at 01:26 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Oops...copy/pasta fail...fixt now. Thx friend.

    Saw your reply in the other thread that 60-70 is more "normal", so I guess I don't feel AS bad, but still the above ~64% was under the most ideal fight conditions we have in this tier (stand still, hit boss). Given that I can reach mid 60's easily with HA, AND get an extra CD/non-trivial throughput increase with it, I'm still struggling with liking DP on most fights
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #25
    If you just want a comparison between HA & DP, then it depends on the fight. In general, if you're standing there tanking a boss and he's not going to be doing much from 100% to dead, then DA will fare better. If you want or need an extra cooldown, the HA is a good choice.

    Examples of me personally wanting HA over DP include (heroic bosses wise) surviving Horridon's enrage, solo tanking Tortos so I have a cooldown for every bat pack, solo tanking Durumu and soaking a beam, solo tanking Iron Qon when I'm nearing 7 stacks of Impale and want to save my GoAK & when all the dogs and the boss are up at the end.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Oops...copy/pasta fail...fixt now. Thx friend.

    Saw your reply in the other thread that 60-70 is more "normal", so I guess I don't feel AS bad, but still the above ~64% was under the most ideal fight conditions we have in this tier (stand still, hit boss). Given that I can reach mid 60's easily with HA, AND get an extra CD/non-trivial throughput increase with it, I'm still struggling with liking DP on most fights

    Other than that, break your log down. You have 35.3% haste? Lets round down to 35%.
    Your GCD is 1.11 sec. Tortos lasted 380 seconds. You were stunned for 8 seconds by Quake Stomp so that is 372 seconds left, which is being nice since if you get stunned when a filler next in line, you do not lose any HoPo generation. You casted 6 LH and 13 SS, so that is another 7 or so, lets say 8 seconds gone to waste. So that is 364 seconds left of the fight. During which time you theoretically have 328 globals, lets say 320 gcds. Now this is all speaking in the extremes. Using all 320 GCDs is not human, but it is the potential of the fight.

    That would translate into 107 cs/hotr and 80 J
    You had 97 cs/hotr and 61 judgments. That is a possibility of 29 more holy power possible to have been gained.
    You should have gotten 3 GC procs from avoidance and 11 from CS/hotr, you had 15 procs, so you can remove 1 HoPo there due to luck. However you could have gotten off another 10 cs which would have been another 1 hopo gained so that evens eachother out.

    You used 83 SotR, which coinsist with the 57 SotR from HoPo and 26 DP procs you had, with an additional 2 HoPo being left over. You recieved 6 more DP procs than you should have so you can remove 18 seconds of uptime.

    You could have gotten 10 more SotR casts off (13 with DP), minues the 6 extra, so on average you could have gotten 7 more SotR casts off, or 5.5% uptime. So yes, 69.5% uptime is what you could have gotten. (Probably a small bit more since I rounded down in your favor a lot). And that is with 0 RNG working for or against you.
    If we look at the attempt you had, presume you would have had the exact same luck as you did with DP procs, you could have gotten 74.1% uptime on that specific attempt.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #27
    I'm a little lost about halfway through there; you're saying that I missed over 15% of my HoPo gens across the fight? 80 J to 107 CS seems off, in terms of CD/GCD use. Sadly I don't have my toon to check ability CDs, and I'm in no way claiming that I play perfectly, but even with the generous rounding in my favor I have a hard time seeing that I missed almost 30 HoPo gens in a standstill fight. I dunno, maybe I do just suck...

    What should J/CS CD be with 35% haste?
    Judge = 6*.65= 3.9 sec (+.75 for pushback) = 4.65 sec CD?
    CS = 4.5*.65= 2.925 sec CD?

    I guess my OmniCC is off, since it shows 3+ sec as CD for CS for me (no CD shown for abilities below 3 sec CD). Either way, using the above numbers I get 109 CS and 69 J. Meaning I'd still have missed 12CS/8J, so 20 overall.

    WTF. I guess I'm just poorly timing SS refreshes and LH's, as those account for 20 spells (with long GCDs), which would explain the 20 missed HoPo. Poor micromanagement on my part I guess. Even so, that'd be just shy of 7 ShotR casts (call it 7 with CS procs for GC), which is offset by my "good luck" with DP of 6 extra ShotRs and I'm still squarely in the mid 60's.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 02:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #28
    First off, this is calculating as a machine could play (with rounding down to your favor to account for human errors)
    I do not myself play 100% perfectly, nobody does, so on any fight you should for whatever reason to see yourself low. But that is why on a fight when everything clicks, you can see yourself high.
    The roundings where not extremely generous. At most 2-4 more HoPo gained.

    As I mentioned, taking account for DP, you were shy 13 SotRs. Though with accounting for your "luck" with DP that would be 7. Still not a huge deal. I already accounted for the increased GCDs of SS and LH.

    "You casted 6 LH and 13 SS, so that is another 7 or so, lets say 8 seconds gone to waste. So that is 364 seconds left of the fight."

    I do not think it is that you missed 30 HoPo gens, as much as the problem everyone (including myself), is that you have a delay between using your abilites, not mashing them faster enough. Lets see how many abilities you used. Your 20(19) spells with long GCD accounts or 30 seconds of the fight lost. So that brings down the fight length to 350 seconds.

    You cast 35 holy wrath, 85 cs, 12 HotR, 61 J, 35 AS, and I count 32 consecrations (could be wrong, just quickly counted), 5 hands and 3 HoW. That is 268 globals used in 350 seconds. Meaning that you used 1 spell every 1.3 seconds however your GCD is only 1.11s. (with reservation for misscounting your GCDs used, feel free to double check). Which means that basically between every spell, you had a delay of 0.19 seconds more than needed. This is the most common problem for low uptime among good tanks. Simply not mashing buttons fast enough. If we check the second most common problem it is using J>CS by accident.

    You used 85 CS and 61 J, that is a ratio of 1:0.72. The optimal ratio is 1:0.67 (give or take 0.02 depending on when the fights ends)
    So you actually did very good here. Sometimes you delayed a cs longer than needed by casting a J, but not more than a few times. Probably less than what I do, since I do that a lot.

    So all in all, you need to mash the buttons faster and have less delay between using abilities to see those extra few percents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    What should J/CS CD be with 35% haste?
    Judge = 6*.65= 3.9 sec (+.75 for pushback) = 4.65 sec CD?
    CS = 4.5*.65= 2.925 sec CD?
    You need to apply the +0.75 on J before haste since the GCD scales with haste too.

    So 6.75/1.35
    and 4.5/1.35
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-15 at 02:55 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    Just in checking, factoring in the stun times from stomps puts controlled fight length at 340 sec, meaning 1.268 sec uses on 1.11 sec GCD. But still, I get your point...just didn't think I was missing that much. Esp since I usually spam the hell out of everything.

    Does server latency play into spell queueing at all anymore? As in, if GCD is not available, you're hitting button just prior to it being available, does it still try and communicate with server (then get denied and have to restart) before it actually goes off? Wondering, as we are EST, playing on a PST server with ~150ms...which may also account for the ~0.158ms delay in ability use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    this escalated quickly...

    Avast | Signature by Pangcakes | YouTube Channel

  11. #31
    Server latency should not affect it, but it could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    this escalated quickly...
    hahaha
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    this escalated quickly...
    I probably should lay low for a while.

    On a related note, I may or may not have stole your DA macro.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #33
    60% of the time, Firefly suggested GID all the time.



  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    60% of the time, Firefly suggested GID all the time.
    I am not following. 100% of the time?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    60% of the time, Firefly suggested GID all the time.
    It's made with bits of real dragon, so you know it's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am not following. 100% of the time?
    Go watch Anchorman: Legend of Ron Burgundy. Do not return here until you have done so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #36
    Any mod care to fix the title? That extra s is tingling my inner grammar nazi D:

    You're welcome. - Malthanis
    Ta
    Last edited by Rasstapp; 2013-05-15 at 09:06 PM.

  17. #37
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Just in checking, factoring in the stun times from stomps puts controlled fight length at 340 sec, meaning 1.268 sec uses on 1.11 sec GCD. But still, I get your point...just didn't think I was missing that much. Esp since I usually spam the hell out of everything.

    Does server latency play into spell queueing at all anymore? As in, if GCD is not available, you're hitting button just prior to it being available, does it still try and communicate with server (then get denied and have to restart) before it actually goes off? Wondering, as we are EST, playing on a PST server with ~150ms...which may also account for the ~0.158ms delay in ability use.
    I really don't want to get involved in this because it's an extremely silly way to validate anything. But playing from Australia and having to battle high latency since the beginning of time, I can say that generally there's a ~0.5s queue time which should still register before CD ends or the GCD is free. ie: if you have 200 ms most of the time like me, you register your next spell and you should arrive ~0.3 seconds before it's needed. Without that preemptive queue timer playing competitively without negative ms would be aids.

    That's my understanding of it at least, I tend to not look into it much because it's sort of like the being a krogan with the genophage in mass effect. You stop getting sympathy if you bitch about it.

    Avast | Signature by Pangcakes | YouTube Channel

  18. #38
    Ok so good to know that it does still work that way. At least for those of you DAN UNDA. Not trying to make excuses at all, obviously, just understand why I was "missing" so many HoPo gens. So, I appreciate the validation.'

    No idea about FPS references though....but I'll take that as a compliment or something.

    Also, your Devo aura macro caused some issues in the raid; ppl told me that swag is for boys, and I should make it 6 seconds of class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #39
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, your Devo aura macro caused some issues in the raid; ppl told me that swag is for boys, and I should make it 6 seconds of class.
    http://i.imgur.com/NHSEjWe.jpg

    Avast | Signature by Pangcakes | YouTube Channel

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasstapp View Post
    Any mod care to fix the title? That extra s is tingling my inner grammar nazi D:

    You're welcome. - Malthanis
    Ta
    Sorry, I spotted it as soon as I posted the thread. brain must have just turned off and added the extra letter!

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