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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Well, did i say that that Lb has the possibility to beat Lvb in terms of efficiency under normal conditions?
    Not really and trying interpretate this into my post(s) is not right.

    Actually i have taken the FS Bonus into account. But i do not see how you get your scaling values, with no gear i get the following tooltip values:

    Lb:2350
    Lvb:1383

    Formula from wowhead for Lb:1187 to 1355 (+ 73.9% of SpellPower)
    Formula from wowhead for lvb:1105 to 1420 (+ 80% of SpellPower)

    btw. i have 151 sp because of base int while being naked.

    Lb: (1271 + 151*0.74)*1.7 = 2350

    For the Sp scaling value: (1271 + 151*0.74)*1.7 = 2160 + 151*1.25 = 2348 => Scaling value 1.25 => 125%
    this minor difference comes rounding, if you run it with exact numbers you will pretty much get 2350.

    With Shamanism the Sp scaling is 125%, feel free to point out the error here.

    The 100% Value for Lvb comes from the 25% buff i guess, 5.1 Lvb Sp scaling was 120% and with 5.2 80%, since 80*1.5 = 120%.

    Obviously the discrepancy between the scaling values skews this issue with increasing Ilvl, but the difference between the baseline values make a rather minor difference and the difference between swings in only in favor of Lvb when 5.3 hits. Yet i do not see why my math in my previous is wrong.

    But that a FS vs. Lb issue in the 1st place, Lb needs to have a higher DPET than FS (without taking extra lvb dmg into account) to even to consider that. And i think that FS damage itself suffices to beat a single Lb. Never tried to prove that Lb is sometimes more beneficial than Lvb, all i tried to prove is that Lb is able to produce a higher damage number than Lvb even without some short time buffs active.
    Sorry, I forgot Shamanism was a 70% multiplier, not additive.

    Anyway, I'd say we're better of comparing spells as they would be on Tuesday, which takes the cast time out of the equation.

    LB: 1271 + 73.9% -> 2161 + 125.63%
    LvB: 1579 + 100% -> 2369 + 150%
    The -> conversion is adding Shamanism for LB, Flame Shock for LvB. As you can see, even without factoring in the auto crit function, Lava Burst hits harder and scales better than Lightning Bolt. The reason your math was faulty was that you were comparing the damage of a 2 second cast with a 1.5 second cast, without taking the time difference into account (note: spellpower coefficients on spells used to be based on cast time / 3.5, and most spells that currently differ from this have only been tweaked slightly, so it's impossible not to consider time in this context unless you can eliminate it with identical timeframes).

    Pretty much everything in the Elemental spellbook has a higher DPET value than Lightning Bolt, which is why it's used last.

  2. #182
    Mechagnome Zephre's Avatar
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    Can anyone actually clear up what's happening with LvB? Everywhere I've been searching seems to have conflicting ideas of what's happening.

    I've seen some people saying it's 25% more damage with spell power scaling being removed and some saying it's 25% more damage with scaling at 100% up from 80%. It's rather confusing not knowing exactly what is happening when so many people don't seem to know themselves >_<

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    Can anyone actually clear up what's happening with LvB? Everywhere I've been searching seems to have conflicting ideas of what's happening.

    I've seen some people saying it's 25% more damage with spell power scaling being removed and some saying it's 25% more damage with scaling at 100% up from 80%. It's rather confusing not knowing exactly what is happening when so many people don't seem to know themselves >_<
    it's the latter of the two they would never not allow a core spell like Lvb not benefit from spell power that would make gearing up completely useless

  4. #184
    So what will happen in T16? It will have item levels of what, 554 in normal mode? Haste will skyrocket again, will we sometime late in the patch see an increase of the damage an cast time by another 0.5 seconds? Looks like Blizz doesn't really know how to solve the actual problem. I just hope we'll not be stuck with 2.5 LvB at the beginning of the next expansion (where we all will have crappy gear and not legendary meta)

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    So what will happen in T16? It will have item levels of what, 554 in normal mode? Haste will skyrocket again, will we sometime late in the patch see an increase of the damage an cast time by another 0.5 seconds? Looks like Blizz doesn't really know how to solve the actual problem. I just hope we'll not be stuck with 2.5 LvB at the beginning of the next expansion (where we all will have crappy gear and not legendary meta)
    there a lot more classes/specs with 2.0 cast time for spells so if there is a problem reaching the gccd again with some ilvl in the near future it affect not only elemental. that means the chance it high we never see this issue happen.
    and, what you seem to totally forget, you can always reforge out of haste. the issue was that even if you reforge out of haste the amount added by the meta brought us below gcd if stacked with procs/blood lust.
    Last edited by Nebria; 2013-05-19 at 09:38 AM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    The -> conversion is adding Shamanism for LB, Flame Shock for LvB. As you can see, even without factoring in the auto crit function, Lava Burst hits harder and scales better than Lightning Bolt. The reason your math was faulty was that you were comparing the damage of a 2 second cast with a 1.5 second cast, without taking the time difference into account (note: spellpower coefficients on spells used to be based on cast time / 3.5, and most spells that currently differ from this have only been tweaked slightly, so it's impossible not to consider time in this context unless you can eliminate it with identical timeframes).
    I just tried to prove that Lb is able to hit harder than Lvb even without some temporary buffs, i also wrote that Lvb is still better than lb for obvious reasons (casttime).

    Even with 100% Crit Lb won't beat Lvb because of the casttime.



    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    So what will happen in T16? It will have item levels of what, 554 in normal mode? Haste will skyrocket again, will we sometime late in the patch see an increase of the damage an cast time by another 0.5 seconds?
    Reaching 100% is a different story than 50% Haste.

    To reach 100% Haste you need 2 x 30% Haste active (Bl & Meta Gem for example) as well as 20% Haste from Gear, the uptime of this situation is rather low on the avg. encounter as Bl merely lasts 40s.

    20% Haste aren't that hard to get but having so many haste buffs active at the same time for a long duration happens very rarely.

    Even if you get, let's say 35% Haste you still need a 50% Haste Buff to reach 100% Haste.

    A bit simplicated here but Lvb will be as often below 1sec Casttime as Lb is currently below 1sec, not that often to be a serious issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    Looks like Blizz doesn't really know how to solve the actual problem. I just hope we'll not be stuck with 2.5 LvB at the beginning of the next expansion (where we all will have crappy gear and not legendary meta)
    Next Expansion they can just buff Lvb by 8% and you'll be fine.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    So what will happen in T16? It will have item levels of what, 554 in normal mode? Haste will skyrocket again, will we sometime late in the patch see an increase of the damage an cast time by another 0.5 seconds? Looks like Blizz doesn't really know how to solve the actual problem. I just hope we'll not be stuck with 2.5 LvB at the beginning of the next expansion (where we all will have crappy gear and not legendary meta)
    gear wasnt and isnt going to be THE problem behind haste issues, haste mechanics/CDs/procs were the culprit. If we get 10% more haste from, it gear wont make much of a difference now. Yes, meta + BL together will always be close to GCD capping us, but some other casters are in the same boat. Other than that, only thing that will cap you is if you stack haste CDs together, haste scalling wont be a problem in 5.4.
    Last edited by Sarevokcz; 2013-05-19 at 11:27 AM.

  8. #188
    I realize I'm late to the party but I really don't like this change. It might be a dps increase for people with the right gear but it sucks for the rest of us who don't. And it is a bit of quality of life decrease for resto. Yes, I realize it's not my task to do dps when I'm in resto spec, but from 5-man dungeons to raid finder you sometimes simply don't have anything to heal and this will make it a bit harder to squeeze in an occasional Lava Burst - I don't need another bio break, when I have one any time I cast a lightning bolt.

    Well it won't break my world and I will live with it, but these changes really make me wonder if the people who blame Blizzard for "hating" shamans might be on to something. Most importantly why is a relatively big change like this coming this close to the patch release?

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiran View Post
    Most importantly why is a relatively big change like this coming this close to the patch release?
    It isn't such a big change. Really. LvB scaling from Crit would be a big change but not increase cast time/damage. And we talk here about 0,5 seconds before considering haste. That is even for resto peanuts.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    It isn't such a big change. Really. LvB scaling from Crit would be a big change but not increase cast time/damage. And we talk here about 0,5 seconds before considering haste. That is even for resto peanuts.
    Yeah, but that 0.5 seconds is one third of the original cast time. I thought Lava Burst was supposed to be our fast, hard hitting spell. Now it's hard hitting (sort of, since the dps is actually lower unless you have lava surge/haste proc/hero whatever). Which I don't like. But of course YMMV, like I said it's not the end of the world

  11. #191
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiran View Post
    I realize I'm late to the party but I really don't like this change. It might be a dps increase for people with the right gear but it sucks for the rest of us who don't.
    It should be a DPS increase for everyone, regardless of gear levels. Those with higher gear levels will feel less of a subjective "hit" when they have to hard-cast LvB, but that's merely the subjective feels; it's a DPS upgrade either way.

    Most importantly why is a relatively big change like this coming this close to the patch release?
    There is no "major changes are done" point in a PTR outside of the release candidate patch. Until that's pushed, they're still playing with things, and this is a reasonably minor change. They want to make complicated changes earlier in testing, to ensure they don't cause a mechanical problem, but this is just a cast time/coefficient tweak, which could be done via hotfix if they needed to.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal6 View Post
    +25% damage but they took away the 80% Spell Power Scaling?

    This has to be a typo right?
    By the looks of the latest updated patch notes. the 80% spellpower scaling seems to have been removed, and did get a 25% damage base-damage boost, but base 2 second cast time has been added, up from 1.5 seconds.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkuri View Post
    By the looks of the latest updated patch notes. the 80% spellpower scaling seems to have been removed, and did get a 25% damage base-damage boost, but base 2 second cast time has been added, up from 1.5 seconds.
    its a 25% dmg increase as well as 100% sp scalling. making spells not scale from sp would mean gearing up would be absoultely pointless.

  14. #194
    It should be a DPS increase for everyone, regardless of gear levels
    I apologize if this was explained before and I missed it, but how is it a dps increase for everyone if damage went up by 25% and casting time by 33%?

  15. #195
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiran View Post
    I apologize if this was explained before and I missed it, but how is it a dps increase for everyone if damage went up by 25% and casting time by 33%?
    Because you're apparently ignoring Lava Surge.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiran View Post
    I apologize if this was explained before and I missed it, but how is it a dps increase for everyone if damage went up by 25% and casting time by 33%?
    Because it boosts lave surge procs and haste scaling.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiran View Post
    I apologize if this was explained before and I missed it, but how is it a dps increase for everyone if damage went up by 25% and casting time by 33%?
    It's a simple matter of what you gain versus what you lose. When looking at the 33% increased cast time on Lava Burst that means that something in your rotation is getting pushed out to accommodate the extra Lava Burst time. This will almost always mean you're replacing .5 seconds worth of Lightning Bolt with .5 seconds worth of Lava Burst. In essence, you're gaining that 25% Lava Burst damage in exchange for 25% of the damage of a Lightning Bolt each time you hard-cast Lava Burst now. That will always play out in favor of the Lava Burst damage.

    That and what Endus/Recom said.
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Gistwiki View Post
    It's a simple matter of what you gain versus what you lose. When looking at the 33% increased cast time on Lava Burst that means that something in your rotation is getting pushed out to accommodate the extra Lava Burst time. This will almost always mean you're replacing .5 seconds worth of Lightning Bolt with .5 seconds worth of Lava Burst. In essence, you're gaining that 25% Lava Burst damage in exchange for 25% of the damage of a Lightning Bolt each time you hard-cast Lava Burst now. That will always play out in favor of the Lava Burst damage.

    That and what Endus/Recom said.
    This, and at higher gear levels (namely meta gem proc + lust/hero), we are basically receiving a flat damage boost to LvB at those times, since it'll still be around the 1.1-1.2 second cast time (as it effectively is now; even if cast bar shows .6 or something, it's 1.0 due to GCD).

    It will feel strange at first having it be a slower hard cast at most times, but I think BIG NUMBERZ OMG will help quell that disconcertion.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because you're apparently ignoring Lava Surge.
    What about ascendance? Lava Surge procs will add up, but doesn't weaker ascendance will bring it down?

    Is there ilvl treshold or maybe haste treshold where this change starts to be a buff, or it is a buff to ele shamans no matter of gear? In other word, will freshly dinged eles will see this change as a buff just as well geared eles?

    ps. not trying to argue with you Endus, just simply asking questions.
    Last edited by bladisha; 2013-05-21 at 09:16 PM.

  20. #200
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    What about ascendance? Lava Surge procs will add up, but doesn't weaker ascendance will bring it down?
    Except it's difficult to argue that it's a "weaker ascendance". The Lava Surge procs get the full benefit of the buff, and no "penalty" from cast time.

    If you just want to use relative numbers, and assume you're not currently at the 1.0 second LvB cast time or higher (since if you're over that, you'll get additional benefit from haste post-5.3 that we're not evaluating here), then it's a 25% buff to all LvBs, roughly, and a 33% decrease to hard-cast LvBs. That makes for a net change of about -8% for hard-cast, but still the full gain of 25% on Lava Surges.

    If you only instant-cast 1 out of every 4 Lava Bursts, it would be a nerf. In practice, we're seeing more than a single Lava Surge every 24 seconds. Even during Ascendance, the same ratio applies; if you're getting 2-3 Lava Surge procs during Ascendance, it's still a net gain.

    Is there ilvl treshold or maybe haste treshold where this change starts to be a buff, or it is a buff to ele shamans no matter of gear? In other word, will freshly dinged eles will see this change as a buff just as well geared eles?
    Gear should be essentially irrelevant, since there's both a base and coefficient buff, and they're the same. The amount of lava burst damage coming from gear won't change, which means gear overall isn't becoming more (or less) important.

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