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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    Yeah just saw the official notes on the front page with a 2 second cast time and 25% more damage not so bad unless you PVP.. Luckily for me not so bad as I don't PVP..
    you think this is bad for pvp? fairly obvious you dont participate. this means bigger burst and burst is still king. this is a good change.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 09:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormhelm View Post
    God. As if pvp'ing as ele wasn't hard enough already, we now have another of our primary damage spells pushed to the two second mark. It's hard enough getting the cast off in it's current state, it's going to be a joke with that change.

    /sigh, at least it'll be nice for Pve. Assuming you can meta up in time.
    i like this change. makes it rewarding to land a lava burst. its stupid when 1 of them cant even break a priest bubble.
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  2. #142
    The Patient Ridethelight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stormhelm
    God. As if pvp'ing as ele wasn't hard enough already, we now have another of our primary damage spells pushed to the two second mark. It's hard enough getting the cast off in it's current state, it's going to be a joke with that change.

    /sigh, at least it'll be nice for Pve. Assuming you can meta up in time.
    i like this change. makes it rewarding to land a lava burst. its stupid when 1 of them cant even break a priest bubble.
    The damage is always welcome but they could just also let out the increased cast time and just buff lvb. I mean critting not more than 50k on full geared people now is just shitty and this only happens with trinket + jade spirit + tailor enchant + engi tinker. But I rather see a buff to lb.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaZDaZ View Post
    In PvP it's actually a buff. It's not a big deal if you get locked out of fire school since you often have elemental school and nature school to work with.
    Yeah I don't PVP unless I have too and even then you would have to pull me in there kicking and screaming.. lol

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CHRONIClinex View Post
    you think this is bad for pvp? fairly obvious you dont participate. this means bigger burst and burst is still king. this is a good change.
    I stopped PVPing in any meaningful way back in Vanilla and only PVP if I have to like that part of the new legendary quest chain that had you do those two BG's.. I just don't have the reflexes for PVPing like I used too.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    The damage is always welcome but they could just also let out the increased cast time and just buff lvb. I mean critting not more than 50k on full geared people now is just shitty and this only happens with trinket + jade spirit + tailor enchant + engi tinker. But I rather see a buff to lb.
    I think this change for LvB is mainly cause of massive haste scaling issues in PvE.
    To be honest it doesn't matter for PvP. Situation currently for hard casting is already bad and and just will stay bad especially in the arena. You will benefit from increased LvB damage however. And finally the complain about LB crits are near LvB crits will stop.

    They have to change much more baseline in PvP and I think this is one top point of their to do list for next x-pack. Remember they wanted to remove blanked silence but reverted the change and said they will pick it up again for next x-pack probably. So the chance is high we will see a lot of mechanic changes for PvP next x-pack.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by RaZDaZ View Post
    In PvP it's actually a buff. It's not a big deal if you get locked out of fire school since you often have elemental school and nature school to work with.
    True, but this will move us even deeper in proc-only casting in PVP. And what if procs are just not there? RNG can be such a bitch.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    True, but this will move us even deeper in proc-only casting in PVP. And what if procs are just not there? RNG can be such a bitch.
    we already have to suffer from proc based casts only since we do not have a dmging spammable spells. so in a arena enjoy hugging the wall hard. but the dmg is very much needed cuz trying to kill healers with only 30-40k hits is just not gonna get it done

  7. #147
    Yeah, like 40-55k hits (upped from 30-40k) will be crucial to down a healer with 400k hp unless stars allign and moon is full so you get 3 or 4 lava surge procs in a row with overloads. That is a lot of unhealthy RNG.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    But I rather see a buff to lb.
    Which is pretty dumb for PvP.

    Lb dmg is pretty meaningless for pvp, you just cast it when there's nothing else to cast.

    Most of your pressure in PvP comes from Lvb, Fulmination and Eb, if Lb is suddenly able to make some decent pressure, then it's obvious that Lb as filler spell is way too strong.

    Look at the dmg done during PvP, Lb isn't even close to the numbers as in PvE.

    Outside of that, in RBG you very often use Cl, a Lb buff would be close to useless there.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    Yeah, like 40-55k hits (upped from 30-40k) will be crucial to down a healer with 400k hp unless stars allign and moon is full so you get 3 or 4 lava surge procs in a row with overloads. That is a lot of unhealthy RNG.
    I said it earlier, people usually don't die to high numbers alone but to high numbers + Stun / Silence.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which is pretty dumb for PvP.

    Lb dmg is pretty meaningless for pvp, you just cast it when there's nothing else to cast.

    Most of your pressure in PvP comes from Lvb, Fulmination and Eb, if Lb is suddenly able to make some decent pressure, then it's obvious that Lb as filler spell is way too strong.

    Look at the dmg done during PvP, Lb isn't even close to the numbers as in PvE.

    Outside of that, in RBG you very often use Cl, a Lb buff would be close to useless there.
    I know it is a filler but it doesn't even feel like one anymore. The time I am casting lightning bolt I want it to actually do some damage for that cast time.
    Last edited by Ridethelight; 2013-05-16 at 10:38 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    I know it is a filler but it doesn't even feel like one anymore. The time I am casting lightning bolt I want it to actually do some damage for that cast time.
    To me the Lb is fine, it's not supposed to do some serious damage, that's the idea of filler spells.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I said it earlier, people usually don't die to high numbers alone but to high numbers + Stun / Silence.
    It works in both directions - your FS might be dispelled, you stunned/silenced or just interrupted easier than before unless lava surge procs favors you.

    Will this change makes us better in arena? You are pretty sure it will, I am not. It's not that we don't hardcast at all.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    Will this change makes us better in arena? You are pretty sure it will, I am not. It's not that we don't hardcast at all.
    will it make you worse? don't think so. people have more time to interrupt your lvb cast but to prevent this you have to use fake cast anyway...

  13. #153
    The Patient Ridethelight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    To me the Lb is fine, it's not supposed to do some serious damage, that's the idea of filler spells.
    I wasn't talking about serious damage, I was talking about some damage. I don't even care if it is a filler but for a spell with quite a long cast time you would expect a bit more damage. Most instant spells are doing the same damage as lb.

    But I welcome any buff for shaman with open arms.

  14. #154
    Herald of the Titans Santti's Avatar
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    Seriously, you thought Lava Burst was going to get it's coefficients removed? You didn't quite think that one through. It would make it crit for something like 3500 and not to forget the cast time increase to 2 sec. This stuff was datamined, people.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    will it make you worse? don't think so. people have more time to interrupt your lvb cast but to prevent this you have to use fake cast anyway...
    Fake casting lost much of its shine with so much CC flying around and with all those blanket silence effects given to various classes. I won't say it is redundant, it isn't, but current incarnation of PVP greatly favors casters with insta and fast casting spells.
    Last edited by bladisha; 2013-05-16 at 02:21 PM.

  16. #156
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which is pretty dumb for PvP.

    Lb dmg is pretty meaningless for pvp, you just cast it when there's nothing else to cast.
    A large part of that is because the damage per cast is so low. Boosting the damage significantly would change that. You can't say "LB does too little damage in PvP, buffing the damage won't help that". That doesn't make any sense.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    Fake casting lost much of its shine with so much CC flying around and with all those blanket silence effects given to various classes. I won't say it is redundant, it isn't, but current incarnation of PVP greatly favors casters with insta and fast casting spells.
    you are right of course but fake casting is the only thing we can use... that's the problem^^
    that's why I hope they rework their pvp design. if you play a shaman you see what's gone wrong as you are mostly a victim of the annoying stuff.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A large part of that is because the damage per cast is so low. Boosting the damage significantly would change that. You can't say "LB does too little damage in PvP, buffing the damage won't help that". That doesn't make any sense.
    I think what he's trying to point out is that for Lightning Bolt to be effective in pvp, it would have to be buffed significantly. This wouldn't help. For one, buffing it significantly is just not going to happen. We probably have differing opinions on what is meant by 'significant' but the percentage I have in mind is pretty damn big. And so its unreasonable to think that they would buff it by that much. Could we see something like a 5% or 10% increase? Sure, but for pvp it would need to be quite a bit more. Secondly, it won't help because its a fairly long cast, there's no proc or special effect to make it instant more than once every 1.5 mins. Getting interrupted on that is much easier and much more deadly than getting locked out of fire.

    All in all, while it seems counter-intuitive to say that buffing something wouldn't help, this may be one of those rare instances where it's actually true. It might be the case that we'd be better off if they would lower the cast time a bit, or just leave it alone.

    As far as others concerned about the cast time of LvB in pvp: for me, personally, it's about as close to a non-issue as it gets. There's nothing about my play-style that is going to change as a result of this, except now I have the benefit of it hitting harder. We're still casters in an environment that is unfriendly to casters. The only thing that's going to help, in my opinion, is making the changes that they've alluded to in the next expansion, so that other 'casters' are brought to our level. And also, making changes to cc. Those are just general changes that will benefit everyone, so it's not say I don't have specific changes in mind that would benefit our spec; there's plenty of those.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by bladisha View Post
    It works in both directions - your FS might be dispelled, you stunned/silenced or just interrupted easier than before unless lava surge procs favors you.
    Yeah, so what?

    I'm just saying that a high dmg spell usually needs to be backed up by some CC spells to yield the wanted result in pvp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    I wasn't talking about serious damage, I was talking about some damage.
    Define "some" dmg? 10% Buff? 30%?

    How much is "some" that you feel a difference in PvP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    Most instant spells are doing the same damage as lb.
    Which Instant Spells?

    Moonfire?
    Ice lance (With FoF)?
    Conflag?

    Most Instant Spells that deal more dmg than lb have some kind of CD or their dmg is modified by something else, but usually you cannot spam them as you can spam Lb.

    So, comparing a Spell which is spamable to a spell which is not spamable isn't that wise.

    You can say that for example Balance & Shadow hardly hardcast anything in RBG because they just multi dot anything to get a shitload of procs, but that is probably a different story.

    That Hardcast are less attractive than Instant Casts is a different story as well and tied to other problems.

    Also, most people forget that Mastery affects Lb dmg as well, altough by firing a 2nd Lb, while other Mastery's (such as Destro Lock) directly affect dmg of a spell.



    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A large part of that is because the damage per cast is so low. Boosting the damage significantly would change that. You can't say "LB does too little damage in PvP, buffing the damage won't help that". That doesn't make any sense.
    Buffing it to the point where it would make a difference doesn't make any sense for obvious reasons.

    Your Goal in PvP is to kill the enemy, as Elemental your only way to kill an enemy is to do as much Burst as possible in a few seconds, if you want to kill an enemy you achieve this mostly through Lvb, Eb and Fulmination.

    Lb may be able to finish off a nearly dead opponent but the main work to bring your enemy down was done by the spells mentioned above.

    Surely, buffing Lb increases damage done in PvP as well, but it is questionable if it actually helps to achieve your goal in PvP.

    Dmg =/= Dmg in PvP, Fury does more Damage than Arms, yet Arms is the better PvP Spec for Warrior.

    If you want to make Elemental more dangerous in PvP (in that case, buffing dmg output) you need to buff spells that actually bring down opponents.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-05-16 at 06:22 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah, so what?

    I'm just saying that a high dmg spell usually needs to be backed up by some CC spells to yield the wanted result in pvp.




    Define "some" dmg? 10% Buff? 30%?

    How much is "some" that you feel a difference in PvP?




    Which Instant Spells?

    Moonfire?
    Ice lance (With FoF)?
    Conflag?

    Most Instant Spells that deal more dmg than lb have some kind of CD or their dmg is modified by something else, but usually you cannot spam them as you can spam Lb.

    So, comparing a Spell which is spamable to a spell which is not spamable isn't that wise.

    You can say that for example Balance & Shadow hardly hardcast anything in RBG because they just multi dot anything to get a shitload of procs, but that is probably a different story.

    That Hardcast are less attractive than Instant Casts is a different story as well and tied to other problems.

    Also, most people forget that Mastery affects Lb dmg as well, altough by firing a 2nd Lb, while other Mastery's (such as Destro Lock) directly affect dmg of a spell.





    Buffing it to the point where it would make a difference doesn't make any sense for obvious reasons.

    Your Goal in PvP is to kill the enemy, as Elemental your only way to kill an enemy is to do as much Burst as possible in a few seconds, if you want to kill an enemy you achieve this mostly through Lvb, Eb and Fulmination.

    Lb may be able to finish off a nearly dead opponent but the main work to bring your enemy down was done by the spells mentioned above.

    Surely, buffing Lb increases damage done in PvP as well, but it is questionable if it actually helps to achieve your goal in PvP.

    Dmg =/= Dmg in PvP, Fury does more Damage than Arms, yet Arms is the better PvP Spec for Warrior.

    If you want to make Elemental more dangerous in PvP (in that case, buffing dmg output) you need to buff spells that actually bring down opponents.
    honestly the major problem with elemental shaman in pvp is not the dmg, but the unrelability of the dmg. We are very RNG dependant every time you happen to get a cast off you cross your fingers and prey to god that the cast overloads. Or if you happen to get your target low you prey to god that you get a surge proc, or that your maxxed fulmination or buffed ele blast crits.

    Not only that the only way to score a competitve kill now a days is with well timed CC Silence or stun with all the instant heals now. However shaman are severly lacking in that department.

    Yes hex is a pretty nice CC, but the CD is way to over the top to be depended on, Cap totem is completely un reliable and the higher the latter u climb the more useless it becomes. With out a druid Windshear is really nice but a 3 second lockout on a 12 second CD will just not cut it. And lastly elemental shaman the only caster/RDPS without a form of silence ( i know not all class are meant to be the same but really the only rdps to not have 1 LOL). In all honesty i hate blanket silences and i hope they're all removed from the game at some point, or make it so your become silenced after a successful interrupt so at least some skill would be involved.

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