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  1. #161
    The only RNG with shaman's in pvp is the RNG where you can gib someone. I easily set up bursts consistently without procs.

    EB + LvB + Fulmination with some CC creates a ton of pressure quickly. This can often be executed.
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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by SamoTray View Post
    honestly the major problem with elemental shaman in pvp is not the dmg, but the unrelability of the dmg. We are very RNG dependant every time you happen to get a cast off you cross your fingers and prey to god that the cast overloads. Or if you happen to get your target low you prey to god that you get a surge proc, or that your maxxed fulmination or buffed ele blast crits.

    Not only that the only way to score a competitve kill now a days is with well timed CC Silence or stun with all the instant heals now. However shaman are severly lacking in that department.

    Yes hex is a pretty nice CC, but the CD is way to over the top to be depended on, Cap totem is completely un reliable and the higher the latter u climb the more useless it becomes. With out a druid Windshear is really nice but a 3 second lockout on a 12 second CD will just not cut it. And lastly elemental shaman the only caster/RDPS without a form of silence ( i know not all class are meant to be the same but really the only rdps to not have 1 LOL). In all honesty i hate blanket silences and i hope they're all removed from the game at some point, or make it so your become silenced after a successful interrupt so at least some skill would be involved.
    I have pretty much the same thoughts about our state in PVP - we are overly dependant on RNG and on our teammates since we seriously lack CC abilities compared to other casters and other classes.

    That's why I would like to see LvB damage scaling directly with mastery (and crit maybe), but without possibility to overload. RNG will be lower and attached only to lava surge procs.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridethelight View Post
    I know it is a filler but it doesn't even feel like one anymore. The time I am casting lightning bolt I want it to actually do some damage for that cast time.
    lightning bolt is that spell i cast when i used all my big boy spells and im really desperate for a kill. ele blast? on cd. fulmination? no stacks. lava burst? on cd. can i heal a teammate? we're all topped?! fuck. i'll cc something! jk im a shaman. guess i'll lightning bolt...
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  4. #164
    The Patient Ridethelight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah, so what?

    I'm just saying that a high dmg spell usually needs to be backed up by some CC spells to yield the wanted result in pvp.




    Define "some" dmg? 10% Buff? 30%?

    How much is "some" that you feel a difference in PvP?



    Which Instant Spells?

    Moonfire?
    Ice lance (With FoF)?
    Conflag?

    Most Instant Spells that deal more dmg than lb have some kind of CD or their dmg is modified by something else, but usually you cannot spam them as you can spam Lb.

    So, comparing a Spell which is spamable to a spell which is not spamable isn't that wise.

    You can say that for example Balance & Shadow hardly hardcast anything in RBG because they just multi dot anything to get a shitload of procs, but that is probably a different story.

    That Hardcast are less attractive than Instant Casts is a different story as well and tied to other problems.

    Also, most people forget that Mastery affects Lb dmg as well, altough by firing a 2nd Lb, while other Mastery's (such as Destro Lock) directly affect dmg of a spell.





    Buffing it to the point where it would make a difference doesn't make any sense for obvious reasons.

    Your Goal in PvP is to kill the enemy, as Elemental your only way to kill an enemy is to do as much Burst as possible in a few seconds, if you want to kill an enemy you achieve this mostly through Lvb, Eb and Fulmination.

    Lb may be able to finish off a nearly dead opponent but the main work to bring your enemy down was done by the spells mentioned above.

    Surely, buffing Lb increases damage done in PvP as well, but it is questionable if it actually helps to achieve your goal in PvP.

    Dmg =/= Dmg in PvP, Fury does more Damage than Arms, yet Arms is the better PvP Spec for Warrior.

    If you want to make Elemental more dangerous in PvP (in that case, buffing dmg output) you need to buff spells that actually bring down opponents.

    Let's just not get any futher into this because clearly you don't want to get a buff for lb. I should have said instant casts like shur toss atm and yes moonfire does about the same damage, maybe even fel flame. It was mostly meant as an overstatement. Elemental damage is alright and like I said I am glad with every buff they throw at us.

    But if they really want to buff us in PvP they should look at our survivability and cap totem. Atleast we are getting some kind of glyph for damage reduction but they could also just give us a baseline 10 % reduced dmg taken. When you blow your sham rage you are pretty much screwed untill its up again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 07:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CHRONIClinex View Post
    lightning bolt is that spell i cast when i used all my big boy spells and im really desperate for a kill. ele blast? on cd. fulmination? no stacks. lava burst? on cd. can i heal a teammate? we're all topped?! fuck. i'll cc something! jk im a shaman. guess i'll lightning bolt...
    It depends if you got the glyph for it, it is free damage on the move. Atleast the glyph is becoming baseline now so its a nice change.

  5. #165
    Why is it people never take in to account elemental overload when factoring in LB damage? Year a single non proc LB doesn't hit very hard but with an overload proc attached it does decent damage.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    Why is it people never take in to account elemental overload when factoring in LB damage? Year a single non proc LB doesn't hit very hard but with an overload proc attached it does decent damage.
    yea, but overload is unreliable and provides double rng with crit for huge variance in output. Its not really concern in pve, where it averages itself over time, but in pvp its more of a hindrance than bonus tbh.

  7. #167
    Why is every Ele Sham related thread I read filled with Endus preaching DPET?

    As for LB critting harder than LvB-- a Blizz argument might be to make crit attractive. I would argue because of this current PvP Ele builds are MORE viable in a PvP situation, (haste-crit centric).

    The only other option would be to redesign LvB with a crit modifier similar to warlocks, or as in this case, a fixed value of 25%... (to prevent crit stacking in excess of 25% were crit be allowed to modify LvB.)

    Anyways, imo Blizz is implying a +25% across the board increase to the existing tooltip. {New LvB}=[LvB]*125%. Either that or they baked the +25% into SP scaling itself, so rather than 80%, we would see 105%.

    Ultimately, this is a huge buff and helps maintain haste as an attractive stat in addition to unlocking Elemental Mastery.
    Last edited by Elestia; 2013-05-17 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    Why is every Ele Sham related thread I read filled with Endus preaching DPET?
    Because he's right. It doesn't matter that LB occasionally crits harder than LvB since LvB is 100% crit, if you push your LvB button you'll always deal more damage on average than if you pushed your LB button.

    The only other option would be to redesign LvB with a crit modifier similar to warlocks, or as in this case, a fixed value of 25%... (to prevent crit stacking in excess of 25% were crit be allowed to modify LvB.)

    Anyways, imo Blizz is implying a +25% across the board increase to the existing tooltip. {New LvB}=[LvB]*125%. Either that or they baked the +25% into SP scaling itself, so rather than 80%, we would see 105%.
    Last time I checked it was 100% SP but that was on the previous build, can't confirm since servers are offline atm.

  9. #169
    I think it would be neat if they made Lava Burst function like Chaos Bolt where your critical strike chance increased its damage.

    (assuming it doesn't already function like this)

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Because he's right. It doesn't matter that LB occasionally crits harder than LvB since LvB is 100% crit, if you push your LvB button you'll always deal more damage on average than if you pushed your LB button.
    Personally i think it's a subjective question if it's cool that filler spell occasionally hits harder than a spell which is the core of your Spec.

    If you think it's okay since Lvb is still more effective, that's okay.
    If you think it still feels wrong that Lb sometimes hits harder than Lvb, then there's no right or wrong, either you agree with it or not.

    Though it's debatable if you should change something objective because it feels wrong, that's a designer's choice.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #171
    Shamans are not the only with the that mechanic, Demo locks also have that, SB(hardcast not touch of chaos) can crit more than Soulfire(100% crit), Tbh I dont think its a good design, But for demon locks isnt really a probleam SB in this tier its residual in the damage breakdown and Soulfire scales from crit.

    Maybe shamans should had the crit scalling direct into damage on LvB, but the 25% damage may fix and if they don't change the metagem coefficients with the almost if not more than 50% uptime, this could be massive especially for burst phases with ascendance where elementals are already kings.
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  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Personally i think it's a subjective question if it's cool that filler spell occasionally hits harder than a spell which is the core of your Spec.

    If you think it's okay since Lvb is still more effective, that's okay.
    If you think it still feels wrong that Lb sometimes hits harder than Lvb, then there's no right or wrong, either you agree with it or not.

    Though it's debatable if you should change something objective because it feels wrong, that's a designer's choice.
    The "feeling" you have about LB/LvB are your opinions and endus doesnt seem to correct opinions. He explains facts. I don't understand why people feel the need to try to prove him wrong . Did he make you look stupid some time in the past?

  13. #173
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korlach View Post
    The "feeling" you have about LB/LvB are your opinions and endus doesnt seem to correct opinions. He explains facts.
    Pretty much. It doesn't matter to me if someone says "I hate Hex, I feel it has too many limitations". I take issue if they say "Shsman don't have any CC because I refuse to consider Hex a CC". There's no point trying to convince someone they should like something, but we should be able to at least agree on what the facts are.

    And with regards to Hex (which I'm using as an example because it hasn't come up in this thread so it won't appear as if I'm picking on anyone passive-aggressively), it's a CC. You might think it's a bad one and that Shaman need more, which is fine. But exaggerating the reality doesn't help; hyperbole tends to get people to just disregard or dismiss your opinion because they see the hyperbole as incorrect, whereas if you'd phrased it more within the bounds of reasonable argument, you might have had a chance to change their minds.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by korlach View Post
    The "feeling" you have about LB/LvB are your opinions and endus doesnt seem to correct opinions. He explains facts. I don't understand why people feel the need to try to prove him wrong . Did he make you look stupid some time in the past?
    Not sure what are you trying to tell me.

    It's simply a subjective matter if someone says that a filler shouldn't have the possibility to deal more damage than a "core" spell.

    Hence, the argument that Lvb has a higher DPCT than Lb does not grasp this issue.

    Did i try to correct him? I am well aware of the numbers, so it's utter bullcrap to interpret my post as:
    Quote Originally Posted by korlach View Post
    I don't understand why people feel the need to try to prove him wrong
    How can i people proof wrong on a subjective issue? Can i prove people wrong on the question which is their favorite colour?

    Trying to solve subjective issues with objectives answers does not work.

    That's the nature of a subjective issue, that there will be no definite answer, an objective answer is definite.

    Just to point this out:
    Does it feel wrong if Lb can crit higher than Lvb? <= Subjective question
    Because Lb can crit higher than Lvb, is Lb > Lvb? <= Objective question

    Feel free to dis/agree on the 1st question, you won't a choice on 2nd question as it has a definite answer, but trying to answer the 1st question with the 2nd answer is simply missing the point of this question.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-05-18 at 02:30 AM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Personally i think it's a subjective question if it's cool that filler spell occasionally hits harder than a spell which is the core of your Spec.

    If you think it's okay since Lvb is still more effective, that's okay.
    If you think it still feels wrong that Lb sometimes hits harder than Lvb, then there's no right or wrong, either you agree with it or not.

    Though it's debatable if you should change something objective because it feels wrong, that's a designer's choice.
    Sure but in that case you have to compare apples to apples meaning you can't compare a fully buffed/proc/whatever LB and a NO buff at all LvB and in fact a fully buffed LvB still hits way harder than a fully buffed LB. Non-scientific comparisons are the plague of the forums and I really hope people understand that one day (that's not for you personally Kraljin, you've been pretty objective in these forums).

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Sure but in that case you have to compare apples to apples meaning you can't compare a fully buffed/proc/whatever LB and a NO buff at all LvB and in fact a fully buffed LvB still hits way harder than a fully buffed LB. Non-scientific comparisons are the plague of the forums and I really hope people understand that one day (that's not for you personally Kraljin, you've been pretty objective in these forums).
    he is not comparing buffed lb's to buffed lvb's if you look on WOL you will see Avg crits of the two spells and lb is coming on top i know Lvb has the way higher DPCT, but still strange to see our filler spell critting for more than our core dmg spell

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Sure but in that case you have to compare apples to apples meaning you can't compare a fully buffed/proc/whatever LB and a NO buff at all LvB and in fact a fully buffed LvB still hits way harder than a fully buffed LB.
    My Values from the ingame Tooltips (without any buffs except flametongue):
    Lvb Baseline: 26k Dmg
    Lb Baseline: 41k Dmg

    Lvb Dmg: 26k*1.5*2.5= 97,5k
    Lb Dmg : 41k*2.5= 102.5k

    If both cast happen under the same circumstance in terms of Spellpower and that Lb will crit, Lb will deal more damage.

    Obviously Lvb is still better than Lb, but you don't need to compare a fully buffed lb to a non buffed lvb to get this result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Non-scientific comparisons are the plague of the forums and I really hope people understand that one day (that's not for you personally Kraljin, you've been pretty objective in these forums).
    It's an issue of game design, when objective discussion with subjective discussions collide.

    From an objective standpoint, it doesn't matter if lb is able to crit higher than Lvb as long as Lvb is remains more efficient, from a subjective standpoint you can agree or disagree if this interpretation ruins the "feeling" of your rotation.

    Subjective matters have their place in gaming forums, as you play games for a subjective reason, but those discussion become very difficult as soon as numbers are involved, people can "feel" numbers but numbers can't describe feelings.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    Non-scientific comparisons
    There is nothing to be scientific about in WoW. It's a programmed game that uses mathematics, that's about it.

    Sure ppl need to back stuff up with proof (mathematically) when they make bold statements that are different what is generally accepted. Still doesn't make WoW science so stop treating WoW as science and start treating it as a game.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Not sure what are you trying to tell me.

    It's simply a subjective matter if someone says that a filler shouldn't have the possibility to deal more damage than a "core" spell.

    Hence, the argument that Lvb has a higher DPCT than Lb does not grasp this issue.

    Just to point this out:
    Does it feel wrong if Lb can crit higher than Lvb? <= Subjective question
    Because Lb can crit higher than Lvb, is Lb > Lvb? <= Objective question

    Feel free to dis/agree on the 1st question, you won't a choice on 2nd question as it has a definite answer, but trying to answer the 1st question with the 2nd answer is simply missing the point of this question.
    The thing is, the potential to deal more damage is not a reason to cast Lightning Bolt before Lava Burst, which is the ultimate point of this argument. Incidentally, that statement is actually incorrect, unless you consider the absolute best possible outcome for Lightning Bolt against the worst setup for Lava Burst. This is because while LvB has more base damage but a lower scaling figure (100% vs ~144%) Lava Burst gets a bonus 50% damage when your target has Flame Shock on it, making that scaling 150% vs 144%. One further note to add: when the FS glyph was changed I did some experimentation to see whether it was worth casting LvB without FS up, just to use the cooldown, and it wasn't.

    The trouble of arguments like these is you're discussing purely hypothetical, probably-never-going-to-happen-ever situations.
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    The thing is, the potential to deal more damage is not a reason to cast Lightning Bolt before Lava Burst, which is the ultimate point of this argument.
    Well, did i say that that Lb has the possibility to beat Lvb in terms of efficiency under normal conditions?

    Not really and trying interpretate this into my post(s) is not right.

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Incidentally, that statement is actually incorrect, unless you consider the absolute best possible outcome for Lightning Bolt against the worst setup for Lava Burst. This is because while LvB has more base damage but a lower scaling figure (100% vs ~144%) Lava Burst gets a bonus 50% damage when your target has Flame Shock on it, making that scaling 150% vs 144%.
    Actually i have taken the FS Bonus into account.

    But i do not see how you get your scaling values, with no gear i get the following tooltip values:

    Lb:2350
    Lvb:1383

    Formula from wowhead for Lb:1187 to 1355 (+ 73.9% of SpellPower)
    Formula from wowhead for lvb:1105 to 1420 (+ 80% of SpellPower)

    btw. i have 151 sp because of base int while being naked.

    Lb: (1271 + 151*0.74)*1.7 = 2350

    For the Sp scaling value: (1271 + 151*0.74)*1.7 = 2160 + 151*1.25 = 2348 => Scaling value 1.25 => 125%
    this minor difference comes rounding, if you run it with exact numbers you will pretty much get 2350.

    With Shamanism the Sp scaling is 125%, feel free to point out the error here.


    The 100% Value for Lvb comes from the 25% buff i guess, 5.1 Lvb Sp scaling was 120% and with 5.2 80%, since 80*1.5 = 120%.


    Obviously the discrepancy between the scaling values skews this issue with increasing Ilvl, but the difference between the baseline values make a rather minor difference and the difference between scaling values only swings in in favor of Lvb when 5.3 hits.

    Yet i do not see why my math in my previous is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    One further note to add: when the FS glyph was changed I did some experimentation to see whether it was worth casting LvB without FS up, just to use the cooldown, and it wasn't.
    But that a FS vs. Lb issue in the 1st place, Lb needs to have a higher DPET than FS (without taking extra lvb dmg into account) to even to consider that.

    And i think that FS damage itself suffices to beat a single Lb.

    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    The trouble of arguments like these is you're discussing purely hypothetical, probably-never-going-to-happen-ever situations.
    Never tried to prove that Lb is sometimes more beneficial than Lvb, all i tried to prove is that Lb is able to produce a higher damage number than Lvb even without some short time buffs active.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-05-18 at 10:29 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

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