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  1. #281
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    So if you got 40 raiders (not just avg player but geared, know there lcass etc) togethere the bosses were easy in TBC? Is that what you are trying to say? If that is the case then there should be a metric fucton of people running around with hand of adal and champion of the naru!

    Guess what...not many got those and allot more would never have gotten into BT or MH had the attunements not been lifted becuase TK and SSC were freaking hard as hell when they were current content in the apropriate gear!
    It's not just the 40 raiders, it's bugs being fixed and wealth of mods and all kinds of crap that made the bosses SEEM more difficult than they actually were compared to now when all that stuff is fixed and in place. In other words raiding was at it's least accessible but the bosses themselves and encounters were easy as opposed to now where encounters are just hard and overwhelming. Getting hand of adal and champion of naru was more about commitment and time than actual difficulty. Hyjal is the easiest instance ever made. Coordinating the trash was harder than the bosses even archimonde is a joke compared to tot. If we got to the boss wave we were good in that place.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Haha, yeah. Vashj und Kael
    Durumu is far more complicated than either vash or kael. Hell Lei Shen is 10x the fuckign challenge. Let's compre end bosses to bosses. The rest of those instances are piss easy.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-14 at 09:07 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #282
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Haha, yeah. Vashj und Kael
    The other bosses in there weren't bad, though, even before the Attunements for BT and Hyjal were lifted. Like I said, I never downed Kael'thas and Vashj. My guild at the time was terrrrible.

    But damn if I didn't have fun farming the REST of the instances.

    Also: I never finished one of the title quests because you had to pay gold at the end.
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  3. #283
    so you are 9/12 normal tot and complaining about it being too hard....wtf....seriously

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:07 PM ----------

    doesnt that jsut prove the point that you dont want to work for it? this proves everything about the amount of effort people want to put in...

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's not just the 40 raiders, it's bugs being fixed and wealth of mods and all kinds of crap that made the bosses SEEM more difficult than they actually were. Getting hand of adal and champion of naru was more about commitment and time than actual difficulty.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:04 PM ----------



    Durumu is far more complicated than either vash or kael. Hell Lei Shen is 10x the fuckign challenge. Let's compre end bosses to bosses. The rest of those instances are piss easy.
    I don't see how Leishen is harder than Vashj or more complicated. Vashj P2 required more coordination then anything at Leishen. Leishen is basically 1 mechanic in 4 iterations. ^.^
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  5. #285
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    The main issue agian is not that normals are too hard now it's that there is a gap in the raiding platform that has not been filled due to "LFR" being pushed as that filler!

    Previously there would be the small raids ZG,AZ,Kara etc that would cater more to the avg joe wanting to do something. They would do those for decent gear and maybe toss a pug for previous tier togethere. These are the raids id join on my alts ..now... LFR or GTFO!

    In wrath they came up with another solution and tossed out 10 mans! Now they were tuned lower provided similar gear just less powerfull. 25 man guilds could plow through it but the avg joe had a hard time with it and over time with gear etc they cleared it.

    then Cata came out... 10 man guilds started asking for a challenge and wanted to be on par with there 25 man countre parts. Thus 10 and 25 were normalized!

    THIS is where the gap is as that 10 man or half raid development is now all lumped into LFR and the groups that were doing the easy organised raids are left grasping at the air with nothing to do but LFR or wipe to content that is harder than they ever saw previously!

    Nerfing normals is not the way to fix it as then you also kill that group and kill the "training ground for heroics" but leaving the groups that previously had WOTLK 10 mans with nothing but LFR was a huge fucking fail move that should be fixed asap but not at the detriment to others!

  6. #286
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    I think it's part of the problem , I mean I rauid ToT 3 days a week I myself am a good player and so are m fellow raiders, but we are only 4/12 I'm kinda upset I might not get the finish before 5.4 comes
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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    I don't see how Leishen is harder than Vashj or more complicated. Vashj P2 required more coordination then anything in at Leishen. Leishen is basically 1 mechanic in 4 iterations. ^.^
    What coordination? relay up the stairs? please that's nothing at best it's on the same level as coordinating phase spectrum and lfe drain at the same time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    so you are 9/12 normal tot and complaining about it being too hard....wtf....seriously

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:07 PM ----------

    doesnt that jsut prove the point that you dont want to work for it? this proves everything about the amount of effort people want to put in...

    Quite the opposite. If I had quite and stopped raiding you may have a case. I'm not quitting but I also don't happen to think I'm a bad at this game and I've had years of raiding experience. However some of my friends who are weaker raiders or who are new to this game we've had to sit and they left and they weren't happy. I'm lucky to know a bunch of good players and we have fun and progress but I would hate to be a new raider at this game.

    It is vastly to hard. That's all their is to it.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-14 at 09:13 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #288
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    so you are 9/12 normal tot and complaining about it being too hard....wtf....seriously

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:07 PM ----------

    doesnt that jsut prove the point that you dont want to work for it? this proves everything about the amount of effort people want to put in...
    Wait, are you speaking to me?
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  9. #289
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Edit: as for vashj ... you must not have done it while it was current content... the adds all over, strider kiting, getting the green add ead, having a macro for who you tossed it to calling that shit out, getting her to the next phase, dodging green shit on the ground, ETC ETC there was more shit going on and vent was chaos untill she died.

    It is by far one of the hardest fights I ever did when it was a current fight becuase of the mass amounts of cordination needed and if ANY quadrant fucked up at all it was a wipe!

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What coordination? relay up the stairs? please that's nothing
    Yeah, Leishen is also nothing. Stand in the right position. Gratz, you have killed 100% of the bosses in WoW.
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

  11. #291
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    The main issue agian is not that normals are too hard now it's that there is a gap in the raiding platform that has not been filled due to "LFR" being pushed as that filler!

    Previously there would be the small raids ZG,AZ,Kara etc that would cater more to the avg joe wanting to do something. They would do those for decent gear and maybe toss a pug for previous tier togethere. These are the raids id join on my alts ..now... LFR or GTFO!

    In wrath they came up with another solution and tossed out 10 mans! Now they were tuned lower provided similar gear just less powerfull. 25 man guilds could plow through it but the avg joe had a hard time with it and over time with gear etc they cleared it.

    then Cata came out... 10 man guilds started asking for a challenge and wanted to be on par with there 25 man countre parts. Thus 10 and 25 were normalized!

    THIS is where the gap is as that 10 man or half raid development is now all lumped into LFR and the groups that were doing the easy organised raids are left grasping at the air with nothing to do but LFR or wipe to content that is harder than they ever saw previously!

    Nerfing normals is not the way to fix it as then you also kill that group and kill the "training ground for heroics" but leaving the groups that previously had WOTLK 10 mans with nothing but LFR was a huge fucking fail move that should be fixed asap but not at the detriment to others!
    My radical dream is that maybe they would consider making 10 mans and 25 mans completely separate instances, as in BC. Have them award equivalent, if different, gear. But for this to work, they'd have to give the full treatment to BOTH instances.
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  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Wait, are you speaking to me?
    no not you, i apologize...was talking to glorious leader...who also makes it sound like Vashj was easy but guilds had serious issues coordinating that at the time....so where he gets off saying that he speaks for the little people is outrageous when he is minimizing a fight he saw easy that others didnt....double standards if you ask me

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Yeah, Leishen is also nothing. Stand in the right position. Gratz, you have killed 100% of the bosses in WoW.
    Not even a close comparison. If BC was as smooth as it was now but the bosses kept their same difficulty everyone would shit over Vash. It's not even close. Durumu requires more coordination.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it is indeed pointlessly overtuned for a normal mode raid.
    What ? I don't even... what? This is nearly perfect tuning for normals.... it's normals not LFR, not ICC 10man normals. This is how normals should be people should get better, Blizzard should not cater to shit players.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    no not you, i apologize...was talking to glorious leader...who also makes it sound like Vashj was easy but guilds had serious issues coordinating that at the time....so where he gets off saying that he speaks for the little people is outrageous when he is minimizing a fight he saw easy that others didnt....double standards if you ask me
    No double standards needed. If everything in BC was as smooth and developed as it is in the current tier Vash would drop like a sack of rocks. Hell even the developers have said the game needs increasing difficult to engage the player base in raiding. Well they jumped the shark in ToT. I mean it's a never ending rise and it just leaves more and more people behind. At some point it has to correct itself.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Durumu is far more complicated than either vash or kael. Hell Lei Shen is 10x the fuckign challenge. Let's compre end bosses to bosses. The rest of those instances are piss easy.
    If your talking Normal mode, you sir, are full of shit.

  17. #297
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by re1gn1te View Post
    What ? I don't even... what? This is nearly perfect tuning for normals.... it's normals not LFR, not ICC 10man normals. This is how normals should be people should get better, Blizzard should not cater to shit players.
    Those "shit players" are the ones who take in the noobs that they then train up, gear up, and produce as potential recruits for higher progressed guilds.

    Those "shit players" are the reason that hardcore guilds can exist.
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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaman View Post
    If your talking Normal mode, you sir, are full of shit.
    No I'm not but thanks for playing. I'm telling you transpose BC into now and BC raids are easier than heroic dungeon bosses. LOL.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    But it has taken me watching guilds I love just...fall to pieces..over the past two expansion...to realize that hardcore guilds live and die with the casual "bads" in this game. You may think you don't, but you do. Those "casual guilds full of bads" accept the players the hardcores won't because they're not experienced enough, geared enough, etc. They give those noobs experience, gear, training, and advice. And then a small percentage of those noobs move on to bigger and brighter things. And so it goes.

    Hardcore raiders burn out, just like everyone else. What I don't understand is why no one seems to be asking where the fuck we're going to get replacements for those raiders that burn out when we're allowing the guilds that FEED US to fall apart?

    You can't raid with just yourself.
    Well
    This is the concept that fuels WoW raiding (and any hard PvE oriented content in any MMO) from the beginning. There is the thing that not many people wants to be the feeders for our sucess. The feeders complained that much we didnt have the proper Progression path for TWO expansions (since T9 till T14) thats a lot of time for people to forget, even more easily forget system that was naturally in the game and now its coming back with all pointing it out and making all kinds of efforts to stop it.
    As a long time Guild leader I got to conclusion I have to find and nurture my feeders. Guilds with some decent leadership willing to learn and than train raiders for your guild (best works if you find feeders with exact same raidtime). Helping your feeders with alts helps a ton as you boost them a little for their weaker members and thus help them with recruitment (which they now do for you as you will take the better ones in your guild anyway). Ultimately you can suck the feeder dry, recruiting whole leadership and better raiders, if your guild suddenly drops in raid attendance (than find another and repeat).
    The other, a little darker, effective method of recruiting is intentional breakup of rival guild and taking their raiders (takes a bit of time and practice)

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not even a close comparison. If BC was as smooth as it was now but the bosses kept their same difficulty everyone would shit over Vash. It's not even close. Durumu requires more coordination.
    We seem to have a very different understandind what "coordination" means. Dumuru has basically one mechanic you have to coordinate. Guess which one.

    May I ask when you cleared the raids in BC?
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

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