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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea DA trash is pretty bad. Snails before Ji Kuun are just annoying. Running around to kill the stupid mogu to summon Megara is annoying. Again none of it is about being difficult, it's just about how inconvenient it is. The snails before ji kuun are a perfect example. They just kill you out right and in alot of cases just feel like they were meant to push the raid back and delay it as much as possible. Not for entertainment value or for immersion purposes.
    We have a ton of fun when we do the snails. We have a running bet, anyone who dies to the snails has to donate a sha crystal to the raid bank. We laugh and have fun doing that trash.

  2. #882
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivyr View Post
    To me and just my opinion. the only time life drain seems a problem is when the tank gets it. They wy my guild handles it though is by haveing people pair off. So my self and out arms warrior stay together to take it off each other etc. Dunno if you and your guild have tried this but helps alot.

    However I do agree, there is alot going on there in that fight. Something else I feel unnecessary in ToT is the venom mancers ghost. I just killed the source of the poison why do they need to spawn an after image that does the same thing and blends in with the poison pools lol.
    Well see the thing about life drain especially on 10 man is that it forces a raid that is already wracking it's brain trying to organize everything (standing in spectrum, chasing down red adds and doing their general raid business) to get another level of coordination on top of that. Like so many attempts we had him at 10% or so and then life drain came and it jst prolonged the fight into another spectrum phase. This is actually another problem with their raid design philosophy. On 10 man you send nine players to stand in spectrums to help split the dmg up. In 25 man you send 9 players to do the exact same thing. It makes ZERO sense and is just brutal for 10 mans. WE've got good raid coordination so we deal with it and we've got players with good raid awareness and good leadership but that doesn't mean it wasn't a struggle and that doesn't mean guilds who aren't as strong in those areas aren't hurting bad.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #883
    Dreadlord Rivyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not at all, it's up to any teacher to get their student engaged, and if necessary show them how to learn.
    Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

    If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.
    I'm a Paladin, Judging is sort of my thing...

    "•Blackout Kick now causes the victim to wake up the next day and question their life choices."

  4. #884
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    We have a ton of fun when we do the snails. We have a running bet, anyone who dies to the snails has to donate a sha crystal to the raid bank. We laugh and have fun doing that trash.
    Yea man I agree. To an extent trash does let people unwind and just chill with each other which is the best part of organized raiding. Just having a blast with people on vent ya know. Having said that though I mean it's also really annoying at times to when theirs so much of it and so much of it is obnoxious to. Maybe ToES was to little trash? I don't know I never heard anyone complain hey wheres my raid trash blizzard? Especially since we seem to have no luck on trash epics either..

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivyr View Post
    Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

    If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.
    But the teacher is also responsible for giving the student the tools and a good environment to learn in. If were going to go with this hey blizzard is my college professor model then they fail at that to. Saying the teacher can only teach is irellevant when BLizzard isn't even doing that properly. You know I bought sc2 a day or to ago the expansion and man those people know what normal means. They spend so much time teaching you crap. That's how you do normal for the majority of your player base.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #885
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivyr View Post
    Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

    If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.
    Nope.

    Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

    Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

    Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  6. #886
    ok well in the end i will go have fun wiping to heroic bosses and those that refuse to learn and listen can bitch about stuff being too hard. i don't lose here. enjoy your blaming of blizzard for your lack of effort. i shall see you all in raid!!! well maybe not lololol.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    em·ploy·ee
    [em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee] Show IPA
    noun
    a person working for another person or a business firm for pay.

    All I know is that I pay Blizzard to make/maintain a game for me to play...
    Sure sounds like they work for me.
    /shrug
    And here's the great disconnect. You pay for a game you happen to enjoy. Not a game that you'd enjoy if they only changed x, y, z to appease you. You are a customer, Blizzard is not your employee.

    When you no longer enjoy it, you no longer play it. Simple.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  8. #888
    this thread become a joke,
    really.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not at all, it's up to any teacher to get their student engaged, and if necessary show them how to learn.
    And if the student refuses? Still the teachers fault?

  10. #890
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And here's the great disconnect. You pay for a game you happen to enjoy. Not a game that you'd enjoy if they only changed x, y, z to appease you. You are a customer, Blizzard is not your employee.

    When you no longer enjoy it, you no longer play it. Simple.
    I don't get it. Are you making an argument in favor of harder raids or in favor of continued subscriber loss?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nope.

    Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.
    Teacher gets paid by student. Student parties all the time, pays no attention, puts no effort forth, fails. Teachers fault.

    Unreal.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  12. #892
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    why is it that almost everyone defending this current raid philosophy is also massively patronizing?
    Good question, and it's posed often in this forum, and every time it is, the same thing happens:

    Poster A is an obnoxious jerk

    Poster B calls him out on it

    Poster A COMPLETELY IGNORES IT, AND NEVER ADDRESSES IT, but continues to act like a jerk.

    Seriously, people who do this, why do you do this? Why make gross-insulting statements then run away? Are you cowards? Do you realize how stupid that is in general? What's wrong with you people? It's the internet? Is that why you behave like horrible human beings?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    this thread become a joke,
    really.
    How come you're always insulting and crap in every random thread about these subjects, and when you're called out on it, you never respond? Why are you so insulting and rude to strangers on the internet? Do you enjoy being a bad person?

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Especially since we seem to have no luck on trash epics either..
    Ya the trash epics are few and far between this tier it seems. I think we have gotten 4 total. Although 1 of them was thunderforged. That was nice.

  14. #894
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    And if the student refuses? Still the teachers fault?
    Yes, of course.

    Either he needs to be giving the money back or upping his game.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I don't get it. Are you making an argument in favor of harder raids or in favor of continued subscriber loss?
    I'm in favor of Blizzard putting their foot down and basically saying "this is the game. If you dont like it, fuck off". Even if it winds up being a game I dislike and leave, it's far more respectable of a position then to watch them desperately try to make this a jack of all trades, master of none mmo.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nope.

    Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

    Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

    Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.
    Man pays builder to build wall. Doesn't let builder on his property. The wall does not get built. Man's fault.

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nope.

    Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

    Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

    Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.
    lol, logic straight from kindergarden.
    your examples of plumber and builder have nothing in common with your teacher - student, and Blizzard - player.

    the leak is either fixed or don't, wall is build or don't, you don't ask owner of the house if he enjoy it. and you don'rt ask owner for help with said work.

  18. #898
    Is ToT too hard? No. The difficulty is just all over the place, and the linearity makes it downright painful to progress if you hit a wall.

    Horridon, Council and Megaera were/are blocks for the average guild because they were gear checks as well as mechanic checks. If those semi-gear checks were saved for Iron Qon and Consorts (who are arguably way undertuned on normal), I doubt there'd be so much complaining.

    Another option would've been to just make the 3 sections into concurrent wings. Linearity only becomes a huge deal when the blocks are poorly placed, as was the case, so an easy solution is to give people choices. Can't kill Horridon in the "Troll wing"? You can try Tortos or Durumu in the other wings. You have options and can pick a fight based on what you think your raid composition/player strengths would excel at most.

    It's not even a matter of "decreasing epicness" like this. We've never heard of most of these bosses until you actually get to their encounter (with the exception of Jin'Rokh, Council, and Lei Shen), so it's not like being able to mix and match the order decreases the story value, it just makes the entire raid more accessible.

    It's interesting that Heroic actually allows these choices just based on how it works. "Oh, we don't really have the DPS for heroic Horridon, but I hear that heroic Ji-kun or Tortos is more about organization and mechanics, let's give those a shot instead!". It definitely makes heroic progression more malleable.

    As for trash? Horridon and Council trash are about as bad as it gets. Again, putting the longest trash before early bosses doesn't make things fun for guilds stuck on those bosses.

    Art-wise... the instance isn't particularly interesting. Outdoor Ruins which've been done in every troll instance ever, a cave, a sewer, and a pretty nondescript royal temple. Nothing really stood out in the environments as particularly exciting. Compare that to the bright colors of Sunwell, or the giant chasm separating the four wings in ICC, or Ulduar's awesome titan touches like the train to Mimiron... all ToT has is a cutscene that you can't skip. Definitely a shortcoming.

  19. #899
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Ya the trash epics are few and far between this tier it seems. I think we have gotten 4 total. Although 1 of them was thunderforged. That was nice.

    Lucky sob. I FINALLY got a piece of thunderforged the other day and it was the shield which was nice. From a 476 pvp shield to 538 thunderforged. It was good to be rewarded for a change.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, of course.

    Either he needs to be giving the money back or upping his game.
    Your just being ridiculous now. Obviously no point in engaging you any further.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 11:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Lucky sob. I FINALLY got a piece of thunderforged the other day and it was the shield which was nice. From a 476 pvp shield to 538 thunderforged. It was good to be rewarded for a change.
    Our poor tank is still using a 476 off of spirit kings LFR. He is hoping lei shen drops his shield tonight. 476 to 522 would be a hell of an upgrade. Shields seem to be even rarer than weapons. :S

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