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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    SO learn your class. Really setting up a toon correctly is not difficult but has a profound effect on your gameplay. I fixed a friends UI, and keybinded for him, he went from HORRIBAD to decent and still needed to learn priority in a rotation. He wiped on easy bosses and i looked at their numbers, changed out some bad's and boom they full cleared. That isnt rocket science bro.
    It's really not rocket science, you're right. I guess it's a matter of personal opinion, but do you think it's appropriate that content is designed and tuned around downloading and setting up numerous 3rd party addons just to be able to perform at an acceptable level?

    Please don't read that as "you can't succeed without addons", that's not what I'm saying.

    Edit:
    Re: Clearing with alts as an argument for ease (assuming by alt you mean a character you play less, with a lower ilvl). I don't get your point - You don't walk up to a boss to have it /yell "Haha! Your group average ilvl is too low!" and insta-gib you all. Lets be generous and say your alts are sitting around 495-500 ilvl (as indeed, mine is). You're obviously a skilled player, so you're probably able to get more out a lower ilvl toon than average player. You've already cleared the content on your main, so you know the fights, the tricks, the things to watch out for. I'd expect a group full of alts who have cleared content on their mains to be more successful than a group of mains even with 5-10 ilvls difference in gear.
    Last edited by Sparkidy; 2013-05-17 at 02:34 AM.

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    In my opinion difficulty isn't the issue, it's the inclusion of LFR which takes players (who could potentially be fairly casual, normal mode raiders - like myself nowadays) out of the raiding pool because they can get a similar "raiding" experience without any commitment.

    Whether that's a bad thing overall is subject to debate. If a large group of players are getting what they want from the game by facerolling through LFR with other people who only seem to communicate to belittle someone's DPS or lack of situational awareness then, as much as it confuses the hell out of me I can't say they're "wrong". Unfortunately LFR does limit the amount of people who could make up the numbers in smaller guilds and, by throwing 5% bonuses at you every time you wipe it's not exactly promoting skill-improvement.
    I know a few people who are pretty good players who only do LFr and the occasional pug with us. The other guilds on the server are pretty bad and they dont want to carry other players trying to clear content wiping on easy bosses because the other raiders arent that good. I know 5-6 people like this and they get on do LFR and pug with us, but they are damn good raiders who dont want to raid hardcore but dont mix well with casuals who are pretty bad.

    They would be a nice addition to a smaller guild like you mentioned and actually one of my friends joined a small guild then started wiping on easy content, in his opinion,and he didnt mesh well with them. He asked in whisper about some other raiders who werent doing well and the response is they were friends, so he thanked for the invite but left the guild heading back to LFR.

    So I dont know how many LFR raiders would add to small guilds having trouble.

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    The only people claiming they were bored at the end of DS were the heroic raiders who had already cleared the place many times many months before. Also, it's funny you bring up mandatory activities. What happens when you can't down a boss? You either get more skill, or you get more gear. Since most everyone is bad, according to people's reasoning here, the other thing left is getting more gear. How would you do that? Lo and behold, the only upgrades for you are gated behind rep and dailies. Oh, but let's check the AH/BMAH! What, you don't have a bank toon funneling thousands of gold to your main to purchase gear? How bad of you! Go farm, you git!

    Look, personally I think ToT is perfect. However, I recognize my skill is a little higher than those other 9 lowly peons I choose to associate myself with. Sarcasm aside, I realize that my personal world (of warcraft) view is not a reflection, nor indicative of, the wow population as a whole, and that Blizzard needs to do something to encourage people into raiding. Having a high collective group difficulty is not the first thing I would choose to address, but what do I know, I don't have Blizzard's massive amount of playerbase info at my fingertips.
    Actually DS stands alone in it's disappointment to the community purely because it was one of those instances that ended up being around for months before we finally got a new expack Think it was about 9 months DS lingered for, only time I remember spending so long grinding the same raid was BT and Sunwell days and even then some guilds were still going back during Wotlk because of the Warglaives.

    As to what I was pointing out to the OP about dailies and rep not being mandatory, I got this nagging feeling he's moaning from a casual raiding point of view rather then say, someone whose raiding 3-4hours a night 3-4 nights a week. The whole meaning of casual has gotten lost over this and the previous expansion especially with the introduction of LFR but Cata didn't help that mind set at all. Used to be, casual meant someone who played WoW because they enjoyed it, they took the game at a casual pace and just did whatever it was they had time for.

    Then LFD came along which made getting groups for instances so much more simple due to the fact you didn't have to stand around waiting to form one but could be out in the world doing whatever it was you wanted to do while you waited for that queue to pop and then later with LFR. The main prob now though is that casual doesn't have that same meaning any more, now a casual player wants to be able to keep pace with a normal raiding raider but only by putting in the same effort they exerted in Cata. Indeed it's not so easy to carry people but the other side of that coin is normal raids have become distinct again in terms of how fast they are/aren't being cleared by every guild/player around.

    Back in days of Vanilla, TBC and some of Wotlk, you had no hope of bringing along a casual guildie to help out but with LFR here they got a chance to get some pieces and can fill the occassional spot when/if needed but for the more casual player whose not got the time or in a clearing guild it can be heavily frustrating I agree.

    As to the whole gear thing on reputation vendors, can I point out something a LOT of people are missing? Take your justice points, head to Orgrimmar, change them all into honor points, head down to the pvp vendor along the wall between Townlong Steppes and Kun-Lai Summit and buy yourself a load of epic 476 gear. This will allow you to SKIP grinding blue justice gear, allow you to gear into 476 epics faster while you're killing world bosses for those drops also and once your ilvl is high enough get into LFR and kill stuff til your hearts content and you're geared enough to progress to the next raid. Rinse and repeat til you're into ToT normal.

    Doesn't require a single reputation grind to do it this way or any need to spend gold either, also you can get a nice 522 epic neck from Shado-Pan Assault vendor at neutral so that should help up your ilvl if needed too.

  4. #1064
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Gratz to you and yours... you are not an average raider... so why are you here? HeatherRae is a top notch raider and she "gets it" Many simply are not able to do what you can, get over yourself and understand that this is a fact and no matter how much you put them down or be condescending its not going to improve the situation.

    /facepalm
    I am uncomfortable with this statement. In my mind, I'm pretty average and just very, very fortunate to be raiding with good people willing to give me gear.

    With that said, I do think that a lot of hardcore/heroic-level raiders forget what it was like to be new, or raid with unskilled people.
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  5. #1065
    You cant kill something? Look at your WOL and see who is doing what numbers, Dps?Hps? Tanking. Who is standing in fire and so on then make the changes.
    No disrespect but do you even live in the same world as the rest of us? The majority of players dont even know what a WoL is... Seriously your raiding world is NOTHING like the average persons.

    Swap people out that arent performing
    You understand there are what? 20 servers that have the pop to "switch someone out" What if those people are your friends? Im going out on a limb again and try to explain it... the things you take for granted and are telling everyone to do here are just not part of the average raiders world... how and why cant you get that?

    or pull them aside and work with them.
    This is the only real thing I have seen you said, the problem is many of these raiders dont have the time to hours on a target dummy, or research videos and writeups for bosses or class specific mechanics. Yet again, your world and the average raiders world are not the same.

    If they wont try to get better why would you want to gear them?
    Because you are friends? You enjoy the company and companionship? There are tons of reasons people raid and they have nothing at all to do with your heroic mindset of get better or gtfo...

    Nerfing does not fix anything and nerfing is the reason we are in this thread to begin with, people used to nerfs of content making them feel like raiders when in fact they probably shouldnt be raiding at all.
    Source?

    I see you taking alot of license with your opinions and stating them as facts, When the lead encounter designer says theres a group of raiders that got left out cause of how normals are and they want to change that... your tirades about get better or get out kinda fall on deaf ears.

    I am uncomfortable with this statement. In my mind, I'm pretty average and just very, very fortunate to be raiding with good people willing to give me gear
    .

    Thats very refreshing to see a humble heroic raider. Maybe some can take a few hints from you and tone down the condesention.
    Last edited by jax; 2013-05-17 at 02:43 AM.

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    It's really not rocket science, you're right. I guess it's a matter of personal opinion, but do you think it's appropriate that content is designed and tuned around downloading and setting up numerous 3rd party addons just to be able to perform at an acceptable level?

    Please don't read that as "you can't succeed without addons", that's not what I'm saying.
    The UI fix was just helping him out as a RL friend but learning your priority rotation, gemming/reforge, haste breakpoints and so on all give you a better chance of downing a boss. These are just playing your toon and yes i do think content is tuned correctly. If people want to progress they will make changes or wait for nerfs like last tier. You want to play with your friends who are bad? Great people have fun but dont think progression is going to be easy because you are choosing to play with bad players.

    You dont want to Learn these things then fine dont, but to think that progression is important enough to whine about but not important enough to get better at, is a joke. I dont know many people who dont have any add-ons at all and i run only 5-6.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    No disrespect but do you even live in the same world as the rest of us? The majority of players dont even know what a WoL is... Seriously you raiding world is NOTHING like the average persons.



    You understand there are what? 20 servers that have the pop to "switch someone out" What if those people are your friends? Im going out on a limb again and try to explain it... the things you take for granted and are telling everyone to do here are just not part of the average raiders world... how and why cant you get that?



    This is the only real thing I have seen you said, the problem is many of these raiders dont have the time to hours on a target dummy, or research videos and writeups for bosses or class specific mechanics. Yet again, your world and the average raiders world are not the same.



    Because you are friends? You enjoy the company and companionship? There are tons of reasons people raid and they have nothing at all to do with your heroic mindset of get better or gtfo...



    Source?

    I see you taking alot of license with your opinions and stating them as facts, When the lead encounter designer says theres a group of raiders that got left out cause of how normals are and they want to change that... your tirades about get better or get out kinda fall on deaf ears.
    When you choose friends that may not be that good over another possibly good player, you are choosing friendship over progression. So progression shouldnt really be that important right?

    If you dont any of these things then maybe you should start and just maybe you will start to progress without more nerfing on top of this already nerfed content.

    You cant see the logic? A guild of not so great players are given a 30% buff and they clear content. Next tier there is no 30% to help them so they believe the content is once again too hard as this subject comes along every tier, every single tier.

    My casual friends tell me they didnt have time yet i see them on realid farming pets, mounts and running old content on alts. Leveling alts,yet they stil ask me questions every week on why content is too hard.

    My experiences with trying to help friends obviously influences my views.

  7. #1067
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I know a few people who are pretty good players who only do LFr and the occasional pug with us. The other guilds on the server are pretty bad and they dont want to carry other players trying to clear content wiping on easy bosses because the other raiders arent that good. I know 5-6 people like this and they get on do LFR and pug with us, but they are damn good raiders who dont want to raid hardcore but dont mix well with casuals who are pretty bad.

    They would be a nice addition to a smaller guild like you mentioned and actually one of my friends joined a small guild then started wiping on easy content, in his opinion,and he didnt mesh well with them. He asked in whisper about some other raiders who werent doing well and the response is they were friends, so he thanked for the invite but left the guild heading back to LFR.

    So I dont know how many LFR raiders would add to small guilds having trouble.
    I know what you mean - it just seems like Blizzard have backed themselves into a corner with LFR.

    The original draw of raiding was to band together with a group of like-minded individuals and overcome a fairly difficult challenge (relatively speaking). LFR, as an introduction to raiding teaches players that they can sink a small amount of time into the game each week and walk out with decent gear. Moving from LFR to normal raiding means a time/effort commitment and, for a lot of people the gear-upgrade is a fairly inconsequential one.

    LFR just teaches bad habits. That you can kill bosses by zerging them... That you can earn gear by being half-AFK and, if you wipe then "here's a 5% bonus so you do better next time". If it was, say a tier behind normal content then maybe more people would put a bit of effort in to normal raiding, bolstering smaller guild numbers and giving raid leaders the opportunity to swap people in/out etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emi666 View Post
    casual doesn't have that same meaning any more
    I have no idea what it means any more. Unlike my 5 nights a week, naxx40 clearing days pre-tbc - I generally raidlog, do pet battles for coins so I can use bonus rolls and do one or two 3 hour raids a week if time allows - we're starting to attempt heroic modes. I'd consider myself casual, but it's all relative as the main team are currently working on HC lei shen 25 and we're a social bunch.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-05-17 at 02:53 AM.
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  8. #1068
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Thats very refreshing to see a humble heroic raider. Maybe some can take a few hints from you and tone down the condesention.
    Don't tell anyone. I got told I was an Elitist Bitch the other day because I told someone he didn't know what he was talking about when he said non-absorb healers can't keep up with Disc/Pallies in Heroic content. :-\
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  9. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    I know what you mean - it just seems like Blizzard have backed themselves into a corner with LFR.

    The original draw of raiding was to band together with a group of like-minded individuals and overcome a fairly difficult challenge (relatively speaking). LFR, as an introduction to raiding teaches players that they can sink a small amount of time into the game each week and walk out with decent gear. Moving from LFR to normal raiding means a time/effort commitment and, for a lot of people the gear-upgrade is a fairly inconsequential one.

    LFR just teaches bad habits. That you can kill bosses by zerging them... That you can earn gear by being half-AFK and, if you wipe then "here's a 5% bonus so you do better next time". If it was, say a tier behind normal content then maybe more people would put a bit of effort in to normal raiding, bolstering smaller guild numbers and giving raid leaders the opportunity to swap people in/out etc.

    I dunno, it's late and I'm ranting.
    LFR teaches bad habits, Nerfs teaches people to keep playing at a low level while downing bosses and clearing tier's. A lot of bad habits are formed when you know content will be nerfed eventually.

    Should i become a better player to clear content now. Or wait for nerfs? Lots of bad habits that are rewarded.

  10. #1070
    I think I only run with 2 or 3. Which I guess proves the point. But try looking at it this way - you're a relatively new player, you're interested in trying some normal mode raids. In order to meet the standard, think of the things expected of you:

    Download:
    DBM/BW
    Some kind of CD tracker or similar (not quite mandatory, but almost)
    Go to an online forum to read up on:
    Action Priority List
    Stat weights
    Gemming
    Reforging
    Talent Speccing
    Get as much gear as possible to off-set any lack of skill through: VP, LFR, coins, BoE drops (=gold), world bosses
    Get someone more knowledgable to check your WoL to see what you could improve on.
    What's WoL? World of Logs. It's this website that, via a 3rd party addon to you game, logs every single action from the combat logs of your entire raid and can be used as an analytical tool to see how people are performing, what abilities they're using, and as often as not, a way of flourishing your e-peen, or in another way, publicly shaming someone.

    The fact that something like WoL even exists is enough to boggle the mind sometimes.

    That's a solid list. And bear in mind that these are the things that are expected of you just to go into normal modes. Is it too much? Not for me, obviously not for you, but if I wasn't as...experienced/invested/masochistic as I am, I can very easily see how that might be enough to put someone off from even trying.
    Last edited by Sparkidy; 2013-05-17 at 02:57 AM.

  11. #1071
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    LFR just teaches bad habits. That you can kill bosses by zerging them... That you can earn gear by being half-AFK and, if you wipe then "here's a 5% bonus so you do better next time". If it was, say a tier behind normal content then maybe more people would put a bit of effort in to normal raiding, bolstering smaller guild numbers and giving raid leaders the opportunity to swap people in/out etc.
    I'm actually fairly incensed that LFR is teaching people who don't know any better strats that will wipe them on the normal version of the encounter. Durumu is case in point.
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  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    I think I only run with 2 or 3. Which I guess proves the point. But try looking at it this way - you're a relatively new player, you're interested in trying some normal mode raids. In order to meet the standard, think of the things expected of you:

    Download:
    DBM/BW
    Some kind of CD tracker or similar (not quite mandatory, but almost)
    Go to an online forum to read up on:
    Action Priority List
    Stat weights
    Gemming
    Reforging
    Talent Speccing
    Get as much gear as possible to off-set any lack of skill through: VP, LFR, coins, BoE drops (=gold), world bosses

    That's a solid list. And bear in mind that these are the things that are expected of you just to go into normal modes. Is it too much? Not for me, obviously not for you, but if I wasn't as...experienced/invested/masochistic as I am, I can very easily see how that might be enough to put someone off from even trying.
    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.

  13. #1073
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    Bosses have too much hp.
    Raiders do under-average-calculated dps.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    Raiders do under-average-calculated dps.
    Which leads to healers going oom or having to heal a extra 2-3 minutes, if not more, of a fight leading to wipes. The longer the fight goes, the more chances for mistakes and wipes.

  15. #1075
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Making the game super easy or nerfed to the core isnt going to fix anything. People will not become better players, if anything they develop worse habits becoming even worse at the game. You cant kill something? Look at your WOL and see who is doing what numbers, Dps?Hps? Tanking. Who is standing in fire and so on then make the changes.
    People will not become better players. This is the key issue. It isn't going to happen, ever.

    Huge swathes of the potential raiding population will never become better players. The only thing being asked for is that this is recognised as the simple fact that it is and that those players are given some semi organised group content to do.
    Swap people out that arent performing or pull them aside and work with them. If they wont try to get better why would you want to gear them?
    Most raiders raid with friends (or they did until they got tuned out) their question to you would be - why on earth would you kick people you liked in favour of purple pixels? What the hell is wrong with you?

    I went to a guildies wedding last month, we've played together for 5 years and are very good friends. If the game gets tuned up and they can no longer perform, do you really expect me to just ditch them (or vice versa) - "oh thanks for sharing important parts of your one and only life with me, but now blizzard have tuned stuff up so fuck off out of my raid!" Its an MMO, matey, the point of it is social gaming.
    Nerfing does not fix anything and nerfing is the reason we are in this thread to begin with, people used to nerfs of content making them feel like raiders when in fact they probably shouldnt be raiding at all.
    I agree, content shouldn't be nerfed. It should launch already doable by the average.
    I am here because people think nerfing is the answer when it is not. People only become worse players each tier of content because they believe in their heads they are really good players because they cleared a tier with a 30% buff then the next tier starts with no nerfed content and guess what? It is too hard for them because they didnt have to get better to down bosses, they were carried by nerfs. Every tier is like this now.
    Which means every tier should start 30% easier.

    Before tot launched we had a one raid running full clears + a few HC modes and a second run almost clearing toes every week. Horridon (+summer) killed the 2nd raid and attendance is much lower than T14 accross the board. I've got people playing D3 just so they can still chat, but they can't be arsed coming to wipe over and over. These downward circles are common in medium level and lower level raiding guilds, especially on mechanic heavy fights.

    What happens is this - your raid learns mechanics. They get a few bosses in. Then one or two people are missing for a week or two and you have to draft in new guys who don't know the fights. Then you wipe all over again while the new guys learn the fights, basically restarting from scratch. For a lot of players who might have sunk 80 attempts into killing horridon the first time, the thought of wiping to him for yet another evening while the new guy learns means they don't want to raid that night. They turn up anyway but they aren't having fun any more. A few weeks of this and they quit raiding and just hang out instead.

    ....meaning you have to get even more new guys in. The ICC/DS model was/is ideal for mom and pop raiding guilds because there was always something you could do as a group depending on who you had on that night. Currently LFR doesnt need a guild and normals require amazing play and there is no other group content for average players to do together that they can't do on their own with less effort. Don't need to be grouped to do a scenario, HC dungeons are a joke and if you do group up it doesnt really change the experience. Challenge modes are great, but if you are average you are amost certainly are too busy doing dailies for actual gear instead.

    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.
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  16. #1076
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, they're much harder. Maybe you could point me to the MoP equivalent of Ulduar's first boss (the vehicle fight)?
    The 1st boss in ToT on normal.
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  17. #1077
    You missed my point - I'm not saying it's hard or unachieveable, I'm saying it's daunting to suddenly have all these tools for improvement thrust at you. I can do the same thing, hooray for us. But we're not the kind of player that's being discussed here. I've played at a high-ish level in the past, and I have no doubt that I could again, if I wanted to spend less time with my family. I'm talking about the guy who might have cleared ICC or DS with the high nerfs, who's used to not having to put in a huge effort to succeed. His own problem? Sure. But this is what he's been taught by previous content. So to suddenly change the rules on him is a bit unfair, if you ask me. Comes down to "get better or quit" again really. It's just that the "quit" door is apparently becoming much more appealing than the "get better" one, with what's involved with getting better.

  18. #1078
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    People will not become better players. This is the key issue. It isn't going to happen, ever.

    Huge swathes of the potential raiding population will never become better players. The only thing being asked for is that this is recognised as the simple fact that it is and that those players are given some semi organised group content to do.


    Most raiders raid with friends (or they did until they got tuned out) their question to you would be - why on earth would you kick people you liked in favour of purple pixels? What the hell is wrong with you?

    I went to a guildies wedding last month, we've played together for 5 years and are very good friends. If the game gets tuned up and they can no longer perform, do you really expect me to just ditch them (or vice versa) - "oh thanks for sharing important parts of your one and only life with me, but now blizzard have tuned stuff up so fuck off out of my raid!" Its an MMO, matey, the point of it is social gaming.


    I agree, content shouldn't be nerfed. It should launch already doable by the average.


    Which means every tier should start 30% easier.

    Before tot launched we had a one raid running full clears + a few HC modes and a second run almost clearing toes every week. Horridon (+summer) killed the 2nd raid and attendance is much lower than T14 accross the board. I've got people playing D3 just so they can still chat, but they can't be arsed coming to wipe over and over. These downward circles are common in medium level and lower level raiding guilds, especially on mechanic heavy fights.

    What happens is this - your raid learns mechanics. They get a few bosses in. Then one or two people are missing for a week or two and you have to draft in new guys who don't know the fights. Then you wipe all over again while the new guys learn the fights, basically restarting from scratch. For a lot of players who might have sunk 80 attempts into killing horridon the first time, the thought of wiping to him for yet another evening while the new guy learns means they don't want to raid that night. They turn up anyway but they aren't having fun any more. A few weeks of this and they quit raiding and just hang out instead.

    ....meaning you have to get even more new guys in. The ICC/DS model was/is ideal for mom and pop raiding guilds because there was always something you could do as a group depending on who you had on that night. Currently LFR doesnt need a guild and normals require amazing play and there is no other group content for average players to do together that they can't do on their own with less effort. Don't need to be grouped to do a scenario, HC dungeons are a joke and if you do group up it doesnt really change the experience. Challenge modes are great, but if you are average you are amost certainly are too busy doing dailies for actual gear instead.

    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.
    You dont have to do anything. You choose what progression means to you and how far you go. You want to play with bad players then progression is not important, good for you, have fun. You want to progress, you make the changes needed. It is not a difficult formula.

    What is the average player? If people clear a instance in blue with some greens and others cant in all epics, what is the average?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    You missed my point - I'm not saying it's hard or unachieveable, I'm saying it's daunting to suddenly have all these tools for improvement thrust at you. I can do the same thing, hooray for us. But we're not the kind of player that's being discussed here. I've played at a high-ish level in the past, and I have no doubt that I could again, if I wanted to spend less time with my family. I'm talking about the guy who might have cleared ICC or DS with the high nerfs, who's used to not having to put in a huge effort to succeed. His own problem? Sure. But this is what he's been taught by previous content. So to suddenly change the rules on him is a bit unfair, if you ask me. Comes down to "get better or quit" again really. It's just that the "quit" door is apparently becoming much more appealing than the "get better" one, with what's involved with getting better.
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.

  19. #1079
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.
    When I started playing in TBC, I was so confused about what I was supposed to do. My first character was a Human Priest, and I got conned into healing Deadmines at level 10 or 12. Needless to say, the experience was so traumatizing that I nearly quit.

    Later, I'd leveled a Hunter up to about 60ish or so, but I got bored. I missed healing (which I had done in other games, though nothing as complicated as this). So I rolled a Blood Elf Priest. I was still deeply confused about healing, and terrified of going into a dungeon after what had happened on my first Priest. But, I was in a guild with people I knew IRL (that's how I picked up the game, actually), and they had already trained me somewhat on my Hunter (remember when guilds taught you how to trap? How to control your pet? How to taunt trap before trap launcher?). One of the healers hooked me up with a Holy Pally in a small raiding guild that was on the same server.

    Highheals was the most flamoyant, fabulously gay Paladin I've ever run into. He dragged me and two friends through Scarlet Monastery wearing a pink dress. Just for funsies. He twisted my arm until I got Healbot so I could see everyone, he taught me about downranking. He taught me about healing priorities. He taught me to sit down and drink if I needed to. He pushed me to PvP to help me learn how to raid heal. And if it weren't for him, I never would have made it to 70. Because I was ready to give up, and I was so frustrated (remember, BC leveling...it sucked, especially as a healer, but even as Shadow!). He took me to my first raid (an insane AQ 20 when I was level 65, with like, 8 level 70s in raid gear). Seeing that raid...seeing how fast it was, how FUN it was, inspired me to keep pushing (and yes, he did help me with the last 5 levels).

    I was a noob. I was bad. I stood in things. I didn't know how to heal myself and the tank. I've stood in defile. I've failed the jump on Thaddeus and gotten hit by fire walls on Sarth. I failed at tornadoes, and fell through the web in Firelands. I dreaded meteors. I went insane on Yogg Saron. I failed at Penetrating Cold (and killed the entire healer group on my Shaman as, well, my Healing Spring got eaten by something). I stood in purple fire. I will say I never blew the raid up in Hyjal, tho. :-P But I've dispelled ionization in the pool.

    I never would have gotten to where I am if people didn't help me along the way. And it's true - you can get better at the game. But we all started as the confused noob who had no idea what they were doing. What took you 20 minutes to figure out took me 6 months as a healer. But there are some people who, for whatever reason, are never going to reach that point. There IS a skill cap, and some people hit it very quickly. That doesn't mean they're worthless (I mean, jesus christ, this is a game!), and it doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get as much enjoyment out of the game as hardcore raiders do.

    I thought Normal content was for raiders who, for whatever reason, either could not or would not do heroic content. Why are we treating it as though somehow hardcore progression raiders have a right to tell people stymied by the current progression in Normal ToT that they're bad, they should quit, they should get better, they should cut their friends loose (for holding them back), they should stop sucking, etc? If normal ToT is a joke for you, that's great - IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR YOU TO PROGRESS IN. GO DO HEROICS.

    Apologies for rambling. I hope that made some modicum of sense.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

    Thank you to Yoni for this AMAZING signature!

  20. #1080
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.
    A lot of people understand what you're saying man, the simple problem is you can't tune content for everyone. If you have a terrible player or two in your raid team then you can't hold that against the majority of the normal-raiding population who want a semi-challenge.

    The only solution is for something like LFR>sub-normal>normal>heroic and there would still be people who'd complain about the difficulty of the sub-normal mode. It's great that blizzard have made raiding more accessible but it can't get to a point where there's no challenge involved at all :-(
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