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  1. #1081
    When you choose friends that may not be that good over another possibly good player, you are choosing friendship over progression. So progression shouldnt really be that important right?
    Unless you want to raid with friends and have been for the better part of 3 years in this game... then all the sudden in MoP you cant because of the wacked out way the difficulty is set up... Why is it your position that people should have to choose? They didnt have to do one or the other in the last 2 expacs and now all the sudden now they do? F that... and thats what people are saying in droves.

    If you dont any of these things then maybe you should start and just maybe you will start to progress without more nerfing on top of this already nerfed content.
    Or maybe the content should be doable as it was the past 3 years and as the lead encounter designer said it should be? Silly I know!

    You cant see the logic?
    What logic? Nothing you have said is logical... choose your friends or raiding, choose to get better or quit... The "logical" thing would be to continue 10 man content as it was in the last 2 expacs in MoP.. they didnt and the raiding scene is suffering for it.

    A guild of not so great players are given a 30% buff and they clear content. Next tier there is no 30% to help them so they believe the content is once again too hard as this subject comes along every tier, every single tier.
    I havent been a part of said discussions starting at tier 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, and 13 as you clearly were because you state for a fact that this happens every single tier!

    My casual friends tell me they didnt have time yet i see them on realid farming pets, mounts and running old content on alts. Leveling alts,yet they stil ask me questions every week on why content is too hard.
    I dont understand, your casual friends clearly think its too hard so they have went to other entertainments... isnt that the point?

    My experiences with trying to help friends obviously influences my views
    Understandable, why cant you see that your type of raiding just isnt what many want or can do, the Lead dude stated as much and yet you still argue the same thing over and over without trying to see anyone else's point of view... not even the dude that makes the raids!
    I mean are you really that narrow minded, seriously? Please dont take offense but I am totally in shock that someone that can play the game at the highest levels doesnt have the brain power to understand that their way of raiding is only 0.50% of all raiders and means nothing to the vast majority of raiders?

    I get your point that nerfing stuff doesnt teach things... why cant you see that making it too hard doesnt teach things either... as those people that just give up and unsub or just go do LFR arent learning a damn thing you want them to either...

    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.
    and still you persist... How many average raiders even know what hunter forums on MMO are? You clearly have a high gaming IQ and the skill set to do these things in 20 mins.. the average person doesnt.

    I honestly dont know why I am even trying, your elitism is mindboggling, you truly have no idea that there are 200k or so raiders that dont fit your mind set. I say we burn em all!

    /sigh
    Last edited by jax; 2013-05-17 at 03:29 AM.

  2. #1082
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You dont have to do anything.
    It's not a case of having to do anything, it's a case of there not being anything to do.
    You choose what progression means to you and how far you go. You want to play with bad players then progression is not important, good for you, have fun. You want to progress, you make the changes needed. It is not a difficult formula.
    You can't "play with "bad" players if there is no content you can do together. Get it yet?
    What is the average player? If people clear a instance in blue with some greens and others cant in all epics, what is the average?
    The average is the middle of the bell curve. Go to LFR, find the middle values. Normal should be clearable with that level of DPS and healing.

    That the truly amazing can clear stuff in blues is completely and utterly irrelevent, designing wow around that is like designing supermarket doorways only midgets can get through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    A lot of people understand what you're saying man, the simple problem is you can't tune content for everyone. If you have a terrible player or two in your raid team then you can't hold that against the majority of the normal-raiding population who want a semi-challenge.
    Why not? I've been able to carry people in raids since molten core. Suddenly it's off the table. If i've had something for 8 years, I kindof expect it in year 9.
    The only solution is for something like LFR>sub-normal>normal>heroic and there would still be people who'd complain about the difficulty of the sub-normal mode. It's great that blizzard have made raiding more accessible but it can't get to a point where there's no challenge involved at all :-(
    Just detune dnormals so they are like DS/ICC. Drop heroics down a bit so they are doable by most people after that, and tell the "500 wipes is fun" crowd to fuck off to some korean MMO that requires you to kill 10,000 mobs per quest which is their natural home. All 5000 of themare never going to be happy anyway, so stuff em.
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  3. #1083
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.
    Do you not realize that those casual guilds are training the future hardcore raiders that will keep your guild solvent? Do you think that hardcore raiders just spring to life, fully-formed with all the knowledge and skill? They come from casual guilds, and grow from there. Your guild won't take them as a noob. Neither will mine. Both of our guilds are recruiting from more casual guilds to fill our rosters. If those casual guilds - and the even more casual guilds that feed them - are not around, we are shit up a creek, dude.
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  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    When I started playing in TBC, I was so confused about what I was supposed to do. My first character was a Human Priest, and I got conned into healing Deadmines at level 10 or 12. Needless to say, the experience was so traumatizing that I nearly quit.

    Later, I'd leveled a Hunter up to about 60ish or so, but I got bored. I missed healing (which I had done in other games, though nothing as complicated as this). So I rolled a Blood Elf Priest. I was still deeply confused about healing, and terrified of going into a dungeon after what had happened on my first Priest. But, I was in a guild with people I knew IRL (that's how I picked up the game, actually), and they had already trained me somewhat on my Hunter (remember when guilds taught you how to trap? How to control your pet? How to taunt trap before trap launcher?). One of the healers hooked me up with a Holy Pally in a small raiding guild that was on the same server.

    Highheals was the most flamoyant, fabulously gay Paladin I've ever run into. He dragged me and two friends through Scarlet Monastery wearing a pink dress. Just for funsies. He twisted my arm until I got Healbot so I could see everyone, he taught me about downranking. He taught me about healing priorities. He taught me to sit down and drink if I needed to. He pushed me to PvP to help me learn how to raid heal. And if it weren't for him, I never would have made it to 70. Because I was ready to give up, and I was so frustrated (remember, BC leveling...it sucked, especially as a healer, but even as Shadow!). He took me to my first raid (an insane AQ 20 when I was level 65, with like, 8 level 70s in raid gear). Seeing that raid...seeing how fast it was, how FUN it was, inspired me to keep pushing (and yes, he did help me with the last 5 levels).

    I was a noob. I was bad. I stood in things. I didn't know how to heal myself and the tank. I've stood in defile. I've failed the jump on Thaddeus and gotten hit by fire walls on Sarth. I failed at tornadoes, and fell through the web in Firelands. I dreaded meteors. I went insane on Yogg Saron. I failed at Penetrating Cold (and killed the entire healer group on my Shaman as, well, my Healing Spring got eaten by something). I stood in purple fire. I will say I never blew the raid up in Hyjal, tho. :-P But I've dispelled ionization in the pool.

    I never would have gotten to where I am if people didn't help me along the way. And it's true - you can get better at the game. But we all started as the confused noob who had no idea what they were doing. What took you 20 minutes to figure out took me 6 months as a healer. But there are some people who, for whatever reason, are never going to reach that point. There IS a skill cap, and some people hit it very quickly. That doesn't mean they're worthless (I mean, jesus christ, this is a game!), and it doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get as much enjoyment out of the game as hardcore raiders do.

    I thought Normal content was for raiders who, for whatever reason, either could not or would not do heroic content. Why are we treating it as though somehow hardcore progression raiders have a right to tell people stymied by the current progression in Normal ToT that they're bad, they should quit, they should get better, they should cut their friends loose (for holding them back), they should stop sucking, etc? If normal ToT is a joke for you, that's great - IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR YOU TO PROGRESS IN. GO DO HEROICS.

    Apologies for rambling. I hope that made some modicum of sense.
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It's not a case of having to do anything, it's a case of there not being anything to do.


    You can't "play with "bad" players if there is no content you can do together. Get it yet?


    The average is the middle of the bell curve. Go to LFR, find the middle values. Normal should be clearable with that level of DPS and healing.

    That the truly amazing can clear stuff in blues is completely and utterly irrelevent, designing wow around that is like designing supermarket doorways only midgets can get through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:18 AM ----------



    Why not? I've been able to carry people in raids since molten core. Suddenly it's off the table. If i've had something for 8 years, I kindof expect it in year 9.


    Just detune dnormals so they are like DS/ICC. Drop heroics down a bit so they are doable by most people after that, and tell the "500 wipes is fun" crowd to fuck off to some korean MMO that requires you to kill 10,000 mobs per quest which is their natural home. All 5000 of themare never going to be happy anyway, so stuff em.
    Ya and maybe you arent that good to begin with and you carrying someone was doable based on how easy the content is.

    The middle curve of LFR , where strats have no meaning? Then you apply that difficulty to a raid where there are strats? You are a genuis.

  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.
    How can you say something is easily doable when 75% of people fail at it ?

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  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.
    It's more that some of them will try to get better, and they will get as good as they can become. But there are always raiders - in every guild, if we're honest - who hit a point and either refuse or be unable to go further. Maybe they don't have the time for it. Maybe they get confused by it. Maybe they have some other thing that limits their ability to get better. Guilds used to be able to bring those people - who may have contributed in other ways (maybe they were good at strat but not execution, maybe they were a moral support for the guild, maybe they were the glue that kept their guilds together through thick and thin - and still see the normal content. Now they can't do that. You can't carry multiple unskilled people unless you are extremely talented (and on some fights it's just plain impossible). This is destroying guilds.

    And I honestly do not feel that Normals should be some kind of race, should be "important," or should be something you strut around going, "Oh man, I killed this on NORMAL and it was so hard!" If you want that, you should go heroic. Let the casuals have their playgrounds, ffs. :-\
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  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.
    I'd suggest that an even better busines model still would be to soften up normal content so no-one takes the door. The hardcore crowd is unequivocally unaffected by a softening up of normal modes. You'll just smash through it in 2 weeks instead of 3 before moving onto heroics.

  8. #1088
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Do you not realize that those casual guilds are training the future hardcore raiders that will keep your guild solvent? Do you think that hardcore raiders just spring to life, fully-formed with all the knowledge and skill? They come from casual guilds, and grow from there. Your guild won't take them as a noob. Neither will mine. Both of our guilds are recruiting from more casual guilds to fill our rosters. If those casual guilds - and the even more casual guilds that feed them - are not around, we are shit up a creek, dude.
    Have you seen the interviews from the Titan development team? Mentioning that Titan will be the most hardcore game they have ever developed.

  9. #1089
    Funny how this thread is full of people talking about how raids are too hard, meanwhile the perennial "WoW is dying" threads run on the general consensus that WoW is crap now because it's become too easy.

    All just about limited perception I think.

  10. #1090
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Have you seen the interviews from the Titan development team? Mentioning that Titan will be the most hardcore game they have ever developed.
    I don't really see what that has to do with anything I've said.
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  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    It's more that some of them will try to get better, and they will get as good as they can become. But there are always raiders - in every guild, if we're honest - who hit a point and either refuse or be unable to go further. Maybe they don't have the time for it. Maybe they get confused by it. Maybe they have some other thing that limits their ability to get better. Guilds used to be able to bring those people - who may have contributed in other ways (maybe they were good at strat but not execution, maybe they were a moral support for the guild, maybe they were the glue that kept their guilds together through thick and thin - and still see the normal content. Now they can't do that. You can't carry multiple unskilled people unless you are extremely talented (and on some fights it's just plain impossible). This is destroying guilds.

    And I honestly do not feel that Normals should be some kind of race, should be "important," or should be something you strut around going, "Oh man, I killed this on NORMAL and it was so hard!" If you want that, you should go heroic. Let the casuals have their playgrounds, ffs. :-\
    When fights are HPS/DPS based you can carry. When there are umpteen things each person has to do or everyone dies and you need great DPS/HPS, carrying ceases.

    But what if your long running guild is based around carrying? Plenty of them are. What if you are a 12 person guild and 3 are offline tonight? Grab a random? Oh, nm. 9 man it? Oh, nm. Give up and hand in your sub? hmmm...
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  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Have you seen the interviews from the Titan development team? Mentioning that Titan will be the most hardcore game they have ever developed.
    No... can I see this interview?

  13. #1093
    honestly about 1/2 the guilds need to die.. the servers are too watered down. Its very hard to find decent raiders on low pop realms.
    "You take 4,994,468 boredom damage from daily quests.... You have died."

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    It's more that some of them will try to get better, and they will get as good as they can become. But there are always raiders - in every guild, if we're honest - who hit a point and either refuse or be unable to go further. Maybe they don't have the time for it. Maybe they get confused by it. Maybe they have some other thing that limits their ability to get better. Guilds used to be able to bring those people - who may have contributed in other ways (maybe they were good at strat but not execution, maybe they were a moral support for the guild, maybe they were the glue that kept their guilds together through thick and thin - and still see the normal content. Now they can't do that. You can't carry multiple unskilled people unless you are extremely talented (and on some fights it's just plain impossible). This is destroying guilds.

    And I honestly do not feel that Normals should be some kind of race, should be "important," or should be something you strut around going, "Oh man, I killed this on NORMAL and it was so hard!" If you want that, you should go heroic. Let the casuals have their playgrounds, ffs. :-\

    To me LFR is where people should raid that do not want to put the effort out to progress. I asked how can you mention a skill cap if the person isnt even trying.

  15. #1095
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    To me LFR is where people should raid that do not want to put the effort out to progress. I asked how can you mention a skill cap if the person isnt even trying.
    LFR isn't organised group content, chief.
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  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I don't really see what that has to do with anything I've said.
    If hardcore isn't a good business model why would they start a whole new game that will be hardcore? That was my point, sorry to confuse you.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR isn't organised group content, chief.
    aNeither are a lot of the guilds that call themselves progression raiding guilds.

  17. #1097
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    If hardcore isn't a good business model why would they start a whole new game that will be hardcore? That was my point, sorry to confuse you.
    Honestly, I'll believe it when I see it. Rumors of Titan have been floating around for forever, but so far we've actually heard 0 about the game other than speculation and some vague references. When they present the game, we'll see how hardcore they're going to be.

    Hardcore sure worked in Cata. :-\
    Last edited by HeatherRae; 2013-05-17 at 03:39 AM. Reason: I fail at quoting. :(
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  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Have you seen the interviews from the Titan development team? Mentioning that Titan will be the most hardcore game they have ever developed.
    URL or you are lying.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    If hardcore isn't a good business model why would they start a whole new game that will be hardcore? That was my point, sorry to confuse you.
    They wouldn't. Which is why you're probably either confused or lying.
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  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    If hardcore isn't a good business model why would they start a whole new game that will be hardcore? That was my point, sorry to confuse you.
    It won't be. Titan will be a mass market blizzard title just like everything else they make. He's just selling it.
    aNeither are a lot of the guilds that call themselves progression raiding guilds.
    Most guilds don't call themselves progression raiding guilds. Progression raiding is something for the top 10% of raiders, everyone else is just out to have some fun.

    get it through your head, most people have close to zero interest in any competitive aspect. You are mistaking your own preferences for everyone elses.
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  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Honestly, I'll believe it when I see it. Rumors of Titan have been floating around for forever, but so far we've actually heard 0 about the game other than speculation and some vague references. When they present the game, we'll see how hardcore they're going to be.

    Hardcore sure worked in Cata. :-\
    nd speaking of "WoW," Sams said he expects "Titan" to eclipse "World of Warcraft" (a game that currently boasts more than 12 million subscribers), and added that they expect the game's reach to be "more hardcore than anything that we've done before."

    "We think that it's going to be very impactful in our industry and, we hope, very impactful to the world," Sams said. "The thing that we hope will happen is that it will not stop 'World of Warcraft' but we believe will eclipse it."

    And Sams pointed out that many of the people on the "Titan" team are the people who built "WoW." But with those employees being shifted over to "Titan" and so much focus being heaped on the forthcoming game, does this mean Blizzard plans to back away from supporting "WoW"?

    Not anytime soon.

    "I see 'World of Warcraft' as having many more years in front of it," Sams said. "We're going to continue to support that product for many, many years to come."

    One thing's for sure, Blizzard knows how to raise our expectations. But what is "Titan" going to look like? What is it going to play like? The company has been incredibly tight-lipped so far.

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