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  1. #1121
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    ICC easy on normal... Yeah like the first 4 bosses but the rest wasn't exactly faceroll. After the first 4 the difficulty level definitely started to rise pretty fast, PUGS would probably down the next 2 bosses at max (you get the occasional amazing PUG that gets farther but that was rare). You needed a guild to progress in that instance because if you cleared all of it minus the last boss then you were in for a big surprise. Lich King didn't take shit, he would throw you around like it was his god-given right. He'd show you who daddy was because that was just what the boss was, a minority finished Lich King before the nerfed the shit out that place.
    >.>

    On my realm, pugs routinely cleared ICC on normal, and several did multiple heroic encounters. I regularly did GDKP pugs where we cleared 5-6 heroic bosses, plus Lich King. I ran a pug on an RP server that had no problem going 6/12 normal 10, with people in fairly awful gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    In what universe is this? You were raiding 10 man?
    I did 10 man alt runs on the weekend before I put my foot down and refused (silly guild), but no. My first 10 man guild wasn't until DS. I was firmly 25 man from BC to the middle of Cata.

    LK normal was easy? The top 500 25m guild I was in who finished all hardmodes wouldn't really agree with your statement.
    As I said above, on my realm at the time, we routinely had pugs clearing the instance and doing multiple heroics. Mine was not the only server like this.
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  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Normal modes are too hard and that is really killing the casual/noob raiding scene which is the majority of the game. In my opinion MOP is a little to tedious with all the dailies and farmville and nonstop new reps you have to grind that is probably contributing to the the burnout of a lot of people.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/

    Numbers look quite normal.

    I agree that there is a huge gap between LFR and normal. That doesn't make normal too hard. And as stated, LFR is meant for people who have no time for normal raiding with a guild so I don't really see a reason why the gap needs to be smaller.

  3. #1123
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/

    Numbers look quite normal.

    I agree that there is a huge gap between LFR and normal. That doesn't make normal too hard. And as stated, LFR is meant for people who have no time for normal raiding with a guild so I don't really see a reason why the gap needs to be smaller.
    Primarily because there are people in between LFR and Normal level of skill who are being shut out by the current environment. Happily, recent comments by the devs lead me to believe the situation will be rectified by the end of the expansion.
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  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    >.>

    On my realm, pugs routinely cleared ICC on normal, and several did multiple heroic encounters. I regularly did GDKP pugs where we cleared 5-6 heroic bosses, plus Lich King. I ran a pug on an RP server that had no problem going 6/12 normal 10, with people in fairly awful gear.



    I did 10 man alt runs on the weekend before I put my foot down and refused (silly guild), but no. My first 10 man guild wasn't until DS. I was firmly 25 man from BC to the middle of Cata.



    As I said above, on my realm at the time, we routinely had pugs clearing the instance and doing multiple heroics. Mine was not the only server like this.
    That doesn't make ICC normal easier than MSV normal. Things just changed.

  5. #1125
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Lets do a quick recap of the story so far...

    Tot normal/HC has the lowest participation rate in a very long time. Even then, until they nerfed horridon that participation rate was largely confined to killing jinrokh (a fairly easy boss that nevertheless contains a few one-shot-the-raid mechanics) this is after a tier 14 whereupon the vast majority of players (75%) who started raiding in MSV never got past garalon in hof. This was after they got stuck on elegon in MSV for a month. This assumes they got past stone guards, by no means a certainty given how stupidly complicated it is.

    However, Tot LFR has been a roaring success (Durumus invisible maze of doom and lei shens house of flying pugger insults aside) with millions sleepwalking through it, collecting loot as they press their aoe button over and over while watching whatever people watch on TV these days. The gap between LFR and normal mode is more like a chasm, say casual raiders (some of whom raided DS HC and who now can't raid with their friends at all other than LFR.) Sites like wowprogress confirm that raider attrition is on a scale unseen since TBC. However, unlike TBC wow is no longer attracting new subs like flies on shit and overall sub numbers are down. Very down. 1.8 million adrift on the success of Dragonsoul, in fact.

    In response to this, blizzards lead encounter designer comments that there is a group of people with no raiding content that they can realistically clear and this isn't the best situation for friends and family guilds who don't remove players when they aren't amazing at the game i.e. people who aren't sociopathic in their pursuit of pixels and the mainstay of wows population.

    The forum response to thse undeniable facts is thus

    "Stfu noob, l2play."

    and

    "Me and my hardcore raiding buddies cleared everything last week, therefore my anecdote > all the objective numerical data."

    Oh and let us not forget

    "You only have to use website x, y and z, then spend f hours on the dummy, then use website a, b and c to make sure your gems and reforges are all ok and then you'll be able to perform adequately. Not perform well mind you, you'll only be perform as expected if you do those things, just do all of that merely so that you won't be called useless by me and my hardcore chums. If you don't automatically know all these things then you suck and you should stop playing right now. Loser."
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  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Primarily because there are people in between LFR and Normal level of skill who are being shut out by the current environment. Happily, recent comments by the devs lead me to believe the situation will be rectified by the end of the expansion.
    Ofcourse there are. LFR requires no skill at all. So it's not any different than before LFR.

    There are also people who are between normal and heroic level of skill. It sucks, deal with it.

  7. #1127
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    That doesn't make ICC normal easier than MSV normal. Things just changed.
    Um, actually, yes it does. You see, I could pug ICC normal on 10 or 25 man. When was the last time you saw a 25 man pug? I'm on a high population server now, and I still only rarely see successful 10 man MSV pugs, and only if they're primarily filled with raiders who grossly outgear the content.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Ofcourse there are. LFR requires no skill at all. So it's not any different than before LFR.

    There are also people who are between normal and heroic level of skill. It sucks, deal with it.
    Those players had an option to raid in previous expansion. That option has dried up for them. These are players that hardcore guilds need, though I get the feeling from your posts that you would be happy if they all just quit and left. Sadly, if that did happen, hardcore guilds would die rather quickly. Hardcore guilds don't recruit the bulk of their raiders from other hardcore guilds. They recruit from less progressed, more casual guilds. And those guilds recruit from still less progressed, more casual guilds. When the guilds at the bottom start dying out, it causes a chain reaction from the bottom to the top.

    Essentially, you're advocating cutting the legs out from under hardcore guilds, and I don't think you've quite grasped that yet.
    Last edited by HeatherRae; 2013-05-17 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Forgot how to spell at 4am
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  8. #1128
    The Patient
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    I think the difficulty of ToT is fine, I do believe however that the scaling is wrong. The difference between Jin and Horridon is too big, while after Horridon there is Council(which they nerfed to the ground to the point it's not funny anymore). The last 4 bosses(except Lei Shen), boss 8-11 are all relatively easy, while in the middle there are more problematic bosses like Durumu.

    Nerfing normal modes would mean a guild like mine(3x 2.5 hours a week) would clear a raid like ToT in 1 or 2 weeks instead of the 4 it took us now, and after that we would hit the wall that is heroic. I don't think that's a good idea at all. a 10 man raid, easier than normal but brain-required, only for premades, would seem a better idea for me then.
    Last edited by Viriel; 2013-05-17 at 08:55 AM.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    "You only have to use website x, y and z, then spend f hours on the dummy, then use website a, b and c to make sure your gems and reforges are all ok and then you'll be able to perform adequately. Not perform well mind you, you'll only be perform as expected if you do those things, just do all of that merely so that you won't be called useless by me and my hardcore chums. If you don't automatically know all these things then you suck and you should stop playing right now. Loser."
    Yes that's what everyone is saying. Forget about all the people trying to help and get complaining in return and content nerfed because those people are not accepting the help and are selfish.

    The complaining about content being too hard has never been this bad while the game has never been more accessible and forgivable/easy. But it must be that the game is too hard, it's not our fault!

  10. #1130
    ToT heroic 10 man is too hard. The players are already less commited with each expansion and after we managed to have 12/12 normal on farm we managed to kill the first boss heroic after 20 tries.

    And when we wiped at the next bosses heroic suddenly people had important stuff to do at the next week and could not attend... we have not raided for 2 ids now... I think people are scared/annoyed about how much effort it is to do hard content.

    I personally think that's a sad developement since hard mode should be hard. But I think this time it's a bit overtuned since even players who cleared every content for 8 years with us tend to die often and for different reasons.

    ps: sorry for my bad english


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  11. #1131
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    I think the difficulty of ToT is fine, I do believe however that the scaling is wrong. The difference between Jin and Horridon is too big, while after Horridon there is Council(which they nerfed to the ground to the point it's not funny anymore). The last 4 bosses(except Lei Shen), boss 8-11 are all relatively easy, while in the middle there are more problematic bosses like Durumu.
    Better scaling definitely would have helped many guilds. The fact that guilds are getting cockblocked at the second or third boss in the instance, when there are far easier bosses further in, is really sapping the morale of many casual players. Especially in 10 man guilds.
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  12. #1132
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    I think the difficulty of ToT is fine, I do believe however that the scaling is wrong. The difference between Jin and Horridon is too big, while after Horridon there is Council(which they nerfed to the ground to the point it's not funny anymore). The last 4 bosses(except Lei Shen), boss 8-11 are all relatively easy, while in the middle there are more problematic bosses like Durumu.

    Nerfing normal modes would mean a guild like mine(3x 2.5 hours a week) would clear a raid like ToT in 1 or 2 weeks instead of the 4 it took us now, and after that we would hit the wall that is heroic. I don't think that's a good idea at all. a 10 man lfr only for premades would seem a better idea for me then.
    The thing is, while it would suck for you to run out of new content to do after a few weeks, as things stand other people have no content whatsoever.

    And it's a very different situation trying to keep a guild afloat when there is some content that your team can tackle than when there is no content for them at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 09:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Yes that's what everyone is saying. Forget about all the people trying to help and get complaining in return and content nerfed because those people are not accepting the help and are selfish.

    The complaining about content being too hard has never been this bad while the game has never been more accessible and forgivable/easy. But it must be that the game is too hard, it's not our fault!

    Oh yeah let me add

    "I'll ignore the ojective data and instead pretend the poster themselves need help to clear content, which I will hand out in an incredibly patronising fashion like some sort of interent wow god."

    And

    "Strawman that people are whinging for nerfs."
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  13. #1133
    Herald of the Titans Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    >.>

    On my realm, pugs routinely cleared ICC on normal, and several did multiple heroic encounters. I regularly did GDKP pugs where we cleared 5-6 heroic bosses, plus Lich King. I ran a pug on an RP server that had no problem going 6/12 normal 10, with people in fairly awful gear.
    This was with a 25% buff, there was no pugs with 0% (25 man). 10 mans in wrath were far easier than 25 man, due to the ilvl, so they cannot be compared.

    ICC Heroics were pretty hard at 0%, the 25% buff just destroyed any challenge. The pug I did in ICC 25 man was 11/12 HC, but this was all down to the 25% buff.

    This is a prime example of how badly people look back on previous expansions.

    There is also a very simple reason we don't see 25 man pugs anymore (which I do miss), 10 man is easier and drops the same loot.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2013-05-17 at 09:02 AM.

  14. #1134
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    This was with a 25% buff, there was no pugs with 0% (25 man).

    ICC Heroics were pretty hard at 0%, the 25% buff just destroyed any challenge.
    The heroics (well...except for Gunship -_-), yes. The actual clearing of the instance, no. Most pugs were able to get past Saurfang and into the wings without too much trouble. Putricide was a big block. The Blood Wing and Sindy were basically not doable without a couple days of work, but you could do all the bosses up until then with relative ease. If you were in a more "organized" pug, like a GDKP run or a regular pug (I don't know how widespread this was, but we had groups of people in various guilds who would pug content together on a regular basis, with DKP and everything), you had a good shot at getting the bulk of the instance down. Once the nerfs came in, of course, it was faceroll.

    The ICC Heroics were fantastic, I thought. I wasn't too keen on Lootship, but I really enjoyed progression through the heroics there. I thought they were very well tuned.
    Last edited by HeatherRae; 2013-05-17 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Probably should sleep, spelling is not working!
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  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Um, actually, yes it does. You see, I could pug ICC normal on 10 or 25 man. When was the last time you saw a 25 man pug? I'm no a high population server now, and I still only rarely see successful 10 man MSV pugs, and only if they're primarily filled with raiders who grossly outgear the content.
    Like I said things changed. We have LFR now for example. Why would you pug normal when you got LFR?


    Those players had an option to raid in previous expansion. That option has dried up for them. These are players that hardcore guilds need, though I get the feeling from your posts that you would be happy if they all just quit and left. Sadly, if that did happen, hardcore guilds would die rather quickly. Hardcore guilds don't recruit the bulk of their raiders from other hardcore guilds. They recruit from less progressed, more casual guilds. And those guilds recruit from still less progressed, more casual guilds. When the guilds at the bottom start dying out, it causes a chain reaction from the bottom to the top.


    Essentially, you're advocating cutting the legs out from under hardcore guilds, and I don't think you've quite grasped that yet.

    You have to wrong feeling then.

    There is no problem for normal raiding players to move to heroic raiding either. This thread is about normal difficulty and if you want to lower normal difficulty you are actually cutting the legs from under hardcore raiding guilds by making the gap between normal and heroic bigger.
    Also adding another difficulty will make recruiting even harder when it is already too hard right now because of LFR and "equal" 10 mans.

  16. #1136
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post


    You have to wrong feeling then.

    There is no problem for normal raiding players to move to heroic raiding either. .
    There is if they don't exist in the first place, which is what is happening right now.

    If all the normal modes raiders move to LFR, where are you going to recruit from?
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  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    The heroics (well...except for Gunship -_-), yes. The actual clearing of the instance, no. Most pugs were able to get past Saurfang and into the wings without too much trouble. Putricide was a big block. The Blood Wing and Sindy were basically not doable without a couple days of work, but you could do all the bosses up until then with relative ease. If you were in a more "organized" pug, like a GDKP run or a regular pug (I don't know how widespread this was, but we had groups of people in various guilds who would pug content together on a regular basis, with DKP and everything), you had a good shot at getting the bulk of the instance down. Once the nerfs came in, of course, it was faceroll.

    The ICC Heroics were fantastic, I thought. I wasn't too keen on Lootship, but I really enjoyed progression through the heroics there. I thought they were very well tuned.
    If you just spammed trade for players it was really not that easy without nerfs. Like every tier, before LFR, it took time before these unorganized pugs had a good shot at killing bosses.
    During ICC I joined plenty of pugs even after nerfs and plenty of them failed miserably even with players like myself who did the heroic version, decked out in half BiS gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 09:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    There is if they don't exist in the first place, which is what is happening right now.

    If all the normal modes raiders move to LFR, where are you going to recruit from?
    From the good players who raid normal who are left behind by the whining noobs?

  18. #1138
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post

    From the good players who raid normal who are left behind by the whining noobs?
    And where will those good players come from when no one is raiding normals and everyone is in LFR?

    And how will you know who they are?
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  19. #1139
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Like I said things changed. We have LFR now for example. Why would you pug normal when you got LFR?
    There's no one to pug with, for one. I avoid LFR like the plague, personally.

    You have to wrong feeling then.

    There is no problem for normal raiding players to move to heroic raiding either. This thread is about normal difficulty and if you want to lower normal difficulty you are actually cutting the legs from under hardcore raiding guilds by making the gap between normal and heroic bigger.
    Also adding another difficulty will make recruiting even harder when it is already too hard right now because of LFR and "equal" 10 mans.
    I think you need to look at the raiding population. When was the last time you tried to recruit? Do you have any idea how hard it is to recruit for a casual 10 man? Most casual 25 mans have completely disintegrated. They don't exist. You're either progressing in heroic 25 man, or you go 10 man and progress in heroic there.

    The guilds that once trained, equipped, and groomed new players to get into raiding, get interested in progression, and eventually move on for bigger and brighter things with better guilds, are no longer around. No hardcore guild is going to take these people. So where are they going? They're going to social guilds and disappearing into the miasma of LFR. They can't pug into a run and hopefully get SOME real experience because pugs are so scarce, and tend to only take people who already have the achievements (meaning newer players get left out). More progressed guilds have a harder and harder time recruiting because there's no pool of talent, and they generally want to take people who are at least familiar with normal. The guilds even more progressed can't find recruits because those guilds beneath them are either starved of applicants or defunct, having fallen apart getting stuck two or three bosses into a normal instance with 12 total bosses (imagine being stuck on Marrowgar or Lady D for months? Or being stuck on XT for months?).

    This rises up the chain. Hardcore raiders burn out. You need to ask yourself where hardcore guilds are going to find their replacements when no one is training them.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    If you just spammed trade for players it was really not that easy without nerfs. Like every tier, before LFR, it took time before these unorganized pugs had a good shot at killing bosses.
    During ICC I joined plenty of pugs even after nerfs and plenty of them failed miserably even with players like myself who did the heroic version, decked out in half BiS gear.
    I don't know what to tell you. I know what I experienced during Wrath. I do not recall having great trouble with these runs. And I was in quite a lot of them after I stopped raiding with my main guild for a few months.

    From the good players who raid normal who are left behind by the whining noobs?
    And this is the crux of why you are so condescending and antagonistic. I guess you were never a noob, hm?
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  20. #1140
    On Normal mode Jin'rokh the Breaker was killed by 25,429 raid guilds. That's 99.87% of all raid guilds.
    On Hard mode Jin'rokh the Breaker was killed by 5,425 raid guilds. That's 21.31% of all raid guilds.
    this goes down to Hard Mode Lei Shen who was killed by just 85 raid guilds, that's only 0.33%!

    This is clearly overtuned content since even vanilla Naxxramas was cleared by 3% of the raid guilds according to Blizzard iirc.
    For comparison hard mode final boss kills:

    H: Madness of Deathwing: 14126 (22.05%)
    H: Ragnaros: 7945 (11.53%)
    H: Nefarian: 3560 (4.71%)
    H: Halion (25): 969 (7.99%)
    H: The Lich King (10): 5664 (6.71%)
    H: The Lich King (25): 1101 (1.85%)

    And we could all agree, that the LK 25 man was also overtuned. And even he has 500% more kills than Lei Shen.
    I think they need to nerf the heroic and normal content a little bit more or they will lose the remaining raiders in the long term.

    The number of raiding guilds has dropped from nearly 90,000 during WotLK to 25,000 now!

    PS: source http://www.wowprogress.com/
    Last edited by Kryos; 2013-05-17 at 09:14 AM.


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