1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.

    Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.

    Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.

    Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too. No Warlock? You're going to have tons of fun with Windstorm. No Paladin? I hope you like two tanking.
    This would lead to changes like:
    - Grounding Totem doesn't redirect effects on raid environments.
    - From now on you can't avoid any boss mechanic with any ability. No Cloak, No Ice Block, No Divine Shield, No Deterrence, can't use Every Man for Himself either.
    - Blink doesn't remove stuns on raid environments.
    - AMS doesn't prevent any effect on raid environments.
    - Hand of Protection doesn't remove any effects on raid environments.
    - Dispersion doesn't reduce damage taken on raid environments.
    - Spell Reflect also doesn't work anymore.
    - It's not possible to Disarm bosses or adds anymore.
    - Mechanics like Down Draft from Ji-kun also prevent Stampending Roar from working.
    - In order to prevent Multi-dot abuse, you can only have dots up on one target.
    - Warlock Portals removed.
    - Atonement Healing removed.
    - No encounter mechanic can be dealt better with Absorb mechanics than Healing mechanics.
    - And so on.

    Not looking forward to a game like this.

  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Go for it.


    Oh no, if the turtles came out in a conga line ready to be kicked i'd still find it tricky.


    Same thing, for most guilds. Like I said, you want to seperate difficulty from the players actually performing the tasks, it's a bit weird.
    I don't see what's so weird about it. I want fights to be, within some reasonable margin, about the same difficulty regardless of raid composition. One ranged DPS should be within 15% as useful as any other ranged DPS on a fight. Same with everything else, tanks, melee DPS, healers. This simply is not the case currently.

    I just want classes to be balanced so you're not forced to have specific, arbitrary classes to make fights feasible.

    Progressing on Heroic Council and not being able to immunity frostbite at all when other groups that have paladins/mages are able to completely ignore said mechanic is not cool.

    Bringing in a 500 iLvl Brewmaster alt to Heroic Tortos because it's easier to heal with said brewmaster kiting bats rather than a 525 iLvl Prot Warrior (kiting or tanking, it went horribly either way) is not cool.

    If a conga line of turtles moving at 30% speed is difficult for you, so be it. I'm not buying that it's as difficult as a spattering of mach-4 turtles going in every direction though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milkwolfgang View Post
    This would lead to changes like:
    - Grounding Totem doesn't redirect effects on raid environments.
    - From now on you can't avoid any boss mechanic with any ability. No Cloak, No Ice Block, No Divine Shield, No Deterrence, can't use Every Man for Himself either.
    - Blink doesn't remove stuns on raid environments.
    - AMS doesn't prevent any effect on raid environments.
    - Hand of Protection doesn't remove any effects on raid environments.
    - Dispersion doesn't reduce damage taken on raid environments.
    - Spell Reflect also doesn't work anymore.
    - It's not possible to Disarm bosses or adds anymore.
    - Mechanics like Down Draft from Ji-kun also prevent Stampending Roar from working.
    - In order to prevent Multi-dot abuse, you can only have dots up on one target.
    - Warlock Portals removed.
    - Atonement Healing removed.
    - No encounter mechanic can be dealt better with Absorb mechanics than Healing mechanics.
    - And so on.

    Not looking forward to a game like this.
    Oh hey, while we're on the topic of Grounding Totem!

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=123461

    Glyphed Grounding Totem can prevent the damage from the Get Away! mechanic on Lei Shi. I say can, because I'm pretty sure it still works even on Heroic, Blizzard just doesn't care enough to fix it.

    You used to be able to toss a Flare on Lei Shi and prevent Get Away! from happening completely. Do you really think something like this is balanced? How would you feel if your guild had no hunters and you knew about this?

    Hand of Purity's 70% reduction worked on Frostbite on Heroic Council for ages, then they realized how blatantly overpowered that was and hotfixed it.

    Blizzard is far too generous (I'd even say they're just lazy) with what does and doesn't work to handle boss mechanics.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I don't see what's so weird about it. I want fights to be, within some reasonable margin, about the same difficulty regardless of raid composition. One ranged DPS should be within 15% as useful as any other ranged DPS on a fight. Same with everything else, tanks, melee DPS, healers. This simply is not the case currently.

    I just want classes to be balanced so you're not forced to have specific, arbitrary classes to make fights feasible.
    Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.
    Progressing on Heroic Council and not being able to immunity frostbite at all when other groups that have paladins/mages are able to completely ignore said mechanic is not cool.

    Bringing in a 500 iLvl Brewmaster alt to Heroic Tortos because it's easier to heal with said brewmaster kiting bats rather than a 525 iLvl Prot Warrior (kiting or tanking, it went horribly either way) is not cool.

    If a conga line of turtles moving at 30% speed is difficult for you, so be it. I'm not buying that it's as difficult as a spattering of mach-4 turtles going in every direction though.
    Once you are overloaded, it doesn't matter what else gets added.
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  4. #1244
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.
    So.. you just don't think there's any problem with certain classes being mind-bogglingly overpowered. It makes them unique, so it's good.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it's an extremely negative aspect of raiding in WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Once you are overloaded, it doesn't matter what else gets added.
    I really don't understand what you're overloaded with on normal tortos. Use cooldowns for stomps, don't stand in circles, don't get hit by turtles. Is three really too many mechanics for a normal mode from a healing perspective?

  5. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    So.. you just don't think there's any problem with certain classes being mind-bogglingly overpowered. It makes them unique, so it's good.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it's an extremely negative aspect of raiding in WoW.
    But you don't think that just making the bosses doable with the lowest possible spec and if the better ones do it easier is a solution?


    I really don't understand what you're overloaded with on normal tortos. Use cooldowns for stomps, don't stand in circles, don't get hit by turtles. Is three really too many mechanics for a normal mode from a healing perspective?
    There you go again, "from a healing perspective". No. From MY perspective there was too much going on.
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  6. #1246
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    But you don't think that just making the bosses doable with the lowest possible spec and if the better ones do it easier is a solution?
    No, because then the fight would be completely trivial with the correct classes and be boring as hell. Did you miss the part where I said I play games like this for the challenge? I don't want the challenge to be "shit, we have no warlock and have to recruit one or this boss will take 300+ wipes and be basically impossible to get a repeat kill on."

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    There you go again, "from a healing perspective". No. From MY perspective there was too much going on.
    Well, what perspective are you looking at it from exactly, then? DPSing? Tanking? Please enlighten me on what mechanic I'm missing here. (Bats, I know -- I'll get to that shortly. I mean anything else.)

    Probably the most difficult role on that fight is the OT that handles picking up bats, and even that is only really difficult because the bats spawn in random locations. It's still the exact same concept regardless: dodge turtles and circles, use cooldowns for stomps. Just replace "heal players" with "DPS correct targets."

  7. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    No, because then the fight would be completely trivial with the correct classes and be boring as hell. Did you miss the part where I said I play games like this for the challenge?
    then play the least optimal class. Or wear a blindfold. Not really seeing an argument whereby everyone has to struggle like fuck just so you can have something you can do for yourself anyway.
    I don't want the challenge to be "shit, we have no warlock and have to recruit one or this boss will take 300+ wipes and be basically impossible to get a repeat kill on."
    Then my suggestions match your needs perfectly.


    Well, what perspective are you looking at it from exactly, then? DPSing? Tanking? Please enlighten me on what mechanic I'm missing here. (Bats, I know -- I'll get to that shortly. I mean anything else.)
    My perspective while healing. it doesn't matter what class. This is what I mean, you want to measure difficulty against some theoretical maximum performance and solve all issues around difficuty by just pointing to said perfect performance. Buit that's not things really work - in reality real people actually find stuff difficult due to their own abilities, likes, dislikes and so on. These inherent qualities aren't going anywhere and have to be addressed if you want to design for them.
    Probably the most difficult role on that fight is the OT that handles picking up bats, and even that is only really difficult because the bats spawn in random locations. It's still the exact same concept regardless: dodge turtles and circles, use cooldowns for stomps. Just replace "heal players" with "DPS correct targets."
    Agan, you are completely ignoring what I am telling you. I found healing it difficult on normal. I was overloaded with shit to do. Tortos died, btw but it wasn't much fun and at all points I was like "fucks, sake arrgh."
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  8. #1248
    I attribute most of the break ups to summer time, and what generally occurs before summer time starts for a lot of players: Finals.

    Our guild is currently 4/13HM. By no means near the top, as well not exactly slackers either. We have seen/are seeing our ups and downs like a lot of guilds that aren't at the top end. We aren't flooded with apps like they are. Most of the people we lost were due to RL issues (Finals), burnt out (Dailycraft & Summertime blues), and the occasional ship jumper thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the flag.

    I don't feel ToT normal was difficult at all. The first week with the mistuning of 10man made me wonder, especially walking in with Heroic T14 gear, the first couple bosses (excluding Jin'Rohk) took a LOT more time than those that followed.

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Agan, you are completely ignoring what I am telling you. I found healing it difficult on normal. I was overloaded with shit to do. Tortos died, btw but it wasn't much fun and at all points I was like "fucks, sake arrgh."
    You still haven't actually answered my question, I acknowledged that you found it difficult to heal. I asked you what part of it you found made it difficult. You can't just throw up your hands and say all of it and expect a conversation to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    then play the least optimal class. Or wear a blindfold. Not really seeing an argument whereby everyone has to struggle like fuck just so you can have something you can do for yourself anyway.

    Then my suggestions match your needs perfectly.
    I don't get it. You're telling me that if I want a challenge, I should go out of my way and screw over the 9 other people I raid with by intentionally making it harder for myself, for my own pleasure?

    Alright, I'm out. You're crazy.

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    You still haven't actually answered my question, I acknowledged that you found it difficult to heal. I asked you what part of it you found made it difficult. You can't just throw up your hands and say all of it and expect a conversation to work.
    I've already told you several times. I was overloaded with shit to do. It wasn't that any particualr part was difficult, it's that when you stack it all together I have too much on my plate to deal with.


    I don't get it. You're telling me that if I want a challenge, I should go out of my way and screw over the 9 other people I raid with by intentionally making it harder for myself, for my own pleasure?
    What is the difference between that and getting blizzard to do it for you? (Other than it ruining the game for loads of other people, that is.)
    Alright, I'm out. You're crazy.
    You want more difficulty and you can have it any time you like. All you have to do is make things harder for yourself and you are golden. Why is this logic hard to follow for you?
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  11. #1251
    How is ToT normal too difficult? i think it's just right. even before nerfs horridon wasn't too bad. i admit my scrub guild only cleared it after the nerf but still we were gonna get it eventually.

    L2P imo. do things right and it's not hard at all.

    there are however bad design decisions. stupid things like kicking turtles, and that really awful maze on durumu imo just make it a gate. Tortos when done with someone who knows how to kick is simple but if you have one screw up on the kick it's gg. durumu isn't a pass/fail player issue as much as it is a graphical issue. I still have problems seeing teh path at times. sometimes the path is discernnable other times it's not. that's just bad design.

    the other fights i don't think are unreasonable in any way and lei shen is a great end of tier fight. i don't know about hardmodes as i don't particularly care about them.

    After reading many of the posts i do agree that some fights are much more difficult to progress on even in normal if you don't have the power classes. the power classes or certain classes/specs just make some fights easier by way of their mechanics or spells and such. if youdon't have that class/spec then you have a much harder time. blizzard is imo focused on making so many new or differing encounters as to ignore class balance or usage. unless of course if it's a mage class. they always have to have 3 viable specs. or at the very least the top or never below middle pack.
    Last edited by Caliph; 2013-05-18 at 02:41 PM.

  12. #1252
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    What is the difference between that and getting blizzard to do it for you? (Other than it ruining the game for loads of other people, that is.)


    You want more difficulty and you can have it any time you like. All you have to do is make things harder for yourself and you are golden. Why is this logic hard to follow for you?
    I said in basically every post I want the fights to be difficult on their own merit and not rely on class imbalance to provide a difficulty curve. Your response is that I should play the worst class possible for every encounter because apparently I'm a horrible person and deserve to be punished. Certain things are overpowered in PvE, and other classes should be given comparable utility to compensate, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I've already told you several times. I was overloaded with shit to do. It wasn't that any particualr part was difficult, it's that when you stack it all together I have too much on my plate to deal with.
    Got it, 4 mechanics is too many for a normal mode. Somebody inform Blizzard post-haste.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 02:44 PM.

  13. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I said in basically every post I want the fights to be difficult on their own merit and not rely on class imbalance to provide a difficulty curve. Your response is that I should play the worst class possible for every encounter because apparently I'm a horrible person and deserve to be punished. Certain things are overpowered in PvE, and other classes should be given comparable utility to compensate, period.
    Or the fights be detuned so that he weakest class can do them and if you want more difficulty, try and juggle or play guitar or some shit while you play wow.

    There is zero reason for hundreds of thousands of other potential raiders to be left hanging just because you want blizzard to do something for you you can do for yourself anyway.
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  14. #1254
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Or the fights be detuned so that he weakest class can do them and if you want more difficulty, try and juggle or play guitar or some shit while you play wow.

    There is zero reason for hundreds of thousands of other potential raiders to be left hanging just because you want blizzard to do something for you you can do for yourself anyway.
    Why exactly do you raid in the first place? You have the worst attitude about raid difficulty of anyone I've spoken to in years.

  15. #1255
    I took 3~ weeks off during T14 and was in basically a casual guild for all of MSV progression. I still managed to see phase 2 of Heroic Sha while it was current, the amount of time given was gratuitous.
    Gratz? Clearly you define casual differently than others... Your ancedotal story means nothing when the Lead Encounter Designer has stated for a fact that that ToT is too much for a big chunk of people.



    Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.
    Huh? Wtf are you saying?

    Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.
    So the fight is hard... if you can stack a class it makes it much easier...

    Um, you just said the fight was hard to complete but your saying the fights arent hard????

    Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.
    So the fight is hard to complete unless you class stack...

    So the fight is hard to complete...
    Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too. No Warlock? You're going to have tons of fun with Windstorm. No Paladin? I hope you like two tanking.
    So the fight is hard to complete without class stacking...

    So the fight is hard to complete...

    /boggle

  16. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Why exactly do you raid in the first place?
    because it's a lot of fun, mostly. Or it has been these last 8 years or so.
    You have the worst attitude about raid difficulty of anyone I've spoken to in years.
    How so? Nowhere have I been negative.
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  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Gratz? Clearly you define casual differently than others... Your ancedotal story means nothing when the Lead Encounter Designer has stated for a fact that that ToT is too much for a big chunk of people.
    The guild I was talking about killed Heroic Jin'rokh for the first time 3 days ago. It took them two months to clear normal mode at 500+ iLvl. I'm sure there are more casual guilds out there, but I'm pretty sure by any reasonable standard, two months to clear normal mode (when you already have a fully geared raid group) is casual.
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    So the fight is hard to complete without class stacking...

    So the fight is hard to complete...

    /boggle
    One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    because it's a lot of fun, mostly. Or it has been these last 8 years or so.


    How so? Nowhere have I been negative.
    I pointed out that a lot of fights seem difficult to guilds because they don't have the correct classes available for the fights. Your response to this was essentially "they should just nerf the fights, they don't need to balance the classes" and "if you want difficulty you should just play a shitty class."

    You attack me for liking difficult fights and belittle me for suggesting Blizzard should balance classes properly rather than blindly nerfing fights.

    Your attitude is terrible.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 02:56 PM.

  18. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.

    Current state of the chosen ones compared to the shit classes is not acceptable. It doesn't affect 10man normal or 25mans as much, but 10man heroic gains far too much from taking 2 locks (for example) to the point where it can almost trivialise encounters compared to a raid comp without the chosen ones. Yeah people could reroll the fotm class, but that's not fun, nor should it be expected. Don't nerf heroics, balance classes so there is no clear favourite for every single boss. Normals aren't difficult to kill anyway and don't require a strict comp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.
    To be fair the strength of one good warlock can really sway the difficulty of many encounters this tier when compared to say a hunter, or any melee. (10hc)

  19. #1259
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post

    I pointed out that a lot of fights seem difficult to guilds because they don't have the correct classes available for the fights. Your response to this was essentially "they should just nerf the fights, they don't need to balance the classes" and "if you want difficulty you should just play a shitty class."

    You attack me for liking difficult fights and belittle me for suggesting Blizzard should balance classes properly rather than blindly nerfing fights.
    I'm sorry if you feel attacked, I really only offered solutions to your issues that would leave everyone else alone.
    Your attitude is terrible.
    How so? Nowhere have I been negative.

    I gave you a perfect solution to your problem (wanting more difficulty) which would also leave the game completable for a lot more people (benefits them as well)

    it's a solution you can use right now, today and will last you forever. It even extends beyond wow. You can thank me any time you like for it.

    But why me giving you exactly what you asked for means I have a terrible attitude i'd love for you to explain. Enlighten me.
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  20. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    To be fair the strength of one good warlock can really sway the difficulty of many encounters this tier when compared to say a hunter, or any melee. (10hc)
    Oh yeah, I agree completely. That's why I kept preaching how terrible class balance is. A decent warlock can DOUBLE the amount of damage say, a Hunter can do on Heroic Council. On top of that, Warlocks have an infinitely easier time staying alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm sorry if you feel attacked, I really only offered solutions to your issues that would leave everyone else alone.
    Your "solution" involves punishing me (I enjoy my class quite a lot and have no desire whatsoever to play something else), and completely disregards the problem (class balance this tier is abysmal, you may simply be unaware if you're not progressing on heroics).

    You also seem stuck in willful ignorance. Every single post I've said I want better class balance, and that I enjoy difficult fights. The answer to this is not, has never been, and never will be "play a shitty class" -- so stop repeating it please, you're making a fool out of yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    But why me giving you exactly what you asked for means I have a terrible attitude i'd love for you to explain.
    Enlighten me.
    Already did, not going to do it again.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 03:08 PM.

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