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  1. #1261
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post


    Your "solution" involves punishing me (I enjoy my class quite a lot and have no desire whatsoever to play something else), and completely disregards the problem (class balance this tier is abysmal, you may simply be unaware if you're not progressing on heroics).
    Not at all. If the boss is easily killable on the WORST class,then you can play what you like. if you want more difficulty, just add extra things to do while you are at your keyboard until you are challenged. Job done, and the other 8 million players of wow aren't inconvenienced in any way.
    You also seem stuck in willful ignorance. Every single post I've said I want better class balance, and that I enjoy difficult fights. The answer to this is not, has never been, and never will be "play a shitty class" -- so stop repeating it please, you're making a fool out of yourself.
    My solution wasn't "play a shitty class" it was "do extra stuff out of game until it's difficult for you. " lets face it, you could even make LFR a challenging hell for yourself if you really are interested in diffculty using that method.

    peel an orange and do lfr while also completing a rubiks cube. Hurrah, you are doing something difficult and no one else needs to have nightmares in normal mode again. Everyone wins.
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  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not at all. If the boss is easily killable on the WORST class,then you can play what you like. if you want more difficulty, just add extra things to do while you are at your keyboard until you are challenged. Job done, and the other 8 million players of wow aren't inconvenienced in any way.
    I'm confused, are you living in some fantasy world where you can kill any boss with any raid composition? I'd sure love to visit, because that's not the reality I happen to inhabit.

    I'm not asking Blizzard to make the fights harder, I get the impression that's what you think I'm suggesting. I want all the fights to be feasible without certain classes being mandatory. I'm fine with certain classes being better than others, but you should not be able to increase overall raid DPS by 25% by swapping one class for another -- especially not when that swap actually improves raid utility.

    Also, making LFR challenging is borderline impossible. You can spam a single button while watching a movie, leaving yourself on follow and successfully complete LFR.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 03:15 PM.

  3. #1263
    but I'm pretty sure by any reasonable standard, two months to clear normal mode (when you already have a fully geared raid group) is casual.
    and you would be wrong... this is the problem, people that are better than average do not understand what average is...

    26% of all raiding guilds have killed LeiShen to date.. thats what? 2.5 months in and 1/4 of all raiders have finished the tier... does you killing a heroic boss seem average now? It may be incredibly average when your 13/13 heroic but trying to portray you killing any heroic bosses with your guild and it being "average" is laughable.
    Having killed heroic Jinrohk puts you in the top 80% of all raiders... that would be a B in school terms. I was unaware that Bs were average, Sure thought D's were average and C's above average, B's very good, and A's the tip of the sword...

    You understand that average is 50% out of a 100% in most countries right??? When your in the top 80% of guilds with a heroic kill... you are FAR above the "average"

    One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.
    And yet you avoid the entire point of the post... you admitted 3 different times the fights were hard to complete, then said with the right class they arent, then said the fights are easy...

    What a world we live in...


    peel an orange and do lfr while also completing a rubiks cube. Hurrah, you are doing something difficult and no one else needs to have nightmares in normal mode again. Everyone wins.
    I loled IRL at this... great mental image!
    Last edited by jax; 2013-05-18 at 03:17 PM.

  4. #1264
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I'm confused, are you living in some fantasy world where you can kill any boss with any raid composition? I'd sure love to visit, because that's not the reality I happen to inhabit.
    No, I am saying that the solution to your problem of "omfg class balance" is to make the game be that way. i.e. if you can clear the raid with anything at all, then theres no issue that other classes are necesssary, is there?
    I'm not asking Blizzard to make the fights harder, I get the impression that's what you think I'm suggesting. I want all the fights to be feasible without certain classes being mandatory.
    Then make the fights much easier - and if you want more difficulty, add it yourself, out of game. Everyone wins.
    Also, making LFR challenging is borderline impossible. You can spam a single button while watching a movie, leaving yourself on follow and successfully complete LFR.
    You've got no imagination then. The point is to MAKE it difficult for yourself. I'm sure you can find a way, if difficulty is really your thing.
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  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    and you would be wrong... this is the problem, people that are better than average do not understand what average is...

    26% of all raiding guilds have killed LeiShen to date.. thats what? 2.5 months in and 1/4 of all raiders have finished the tier... does you killing a heroic boss seem average now? It may be incredibly average when your 13/13 heroic but trying to portray you killing any heroic bosses with your guild and it being "average" is laughable.
    Having killed heroic Jinrohk puts you in the top 80% of all raiders... that would be a B in school terms. I was unaware that Bs were average, Sure thought D's were average and C's above average, B's very good, and A's the tip of the sword...

    You understand that average is 50% out of a 100% in most countries right??? When your in the top 80% of guilds with a heroic kill... you are FAR above the "average"
    That's all fine and dandy, but we weren't talking about averages. We're talking about casual vs hardcore guilds, and I'm willing to bet more than 85% of guilds are casual -- which puts killing heroic Jin'rokh 3 days ago quite easily within reach of a casual guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    And yet you avoid the entire point of the post... you admitted 3 different times the fights were hard to complete, then said with the right class they arent, then said the fights are easy...

    What a world we live in...
    They're hard to complete for the wrong reasons. Not having a warlock show up for Heroic Council should not be grounds to cancel a raid, especially when you have more than enough people available. Sadly it pretty much is though -- the fight is trivial mechanically, there is very little to "learn" and a whole lot of "we have to do a lot of DPS or we lose."

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Then make the fights much easier - and if you want more difficulty, add it yourself, out of game. Everyone wins.
    You're basically saying that instead of levelling the playing field, we should lower the bar until anyone with access to a credit card can kill the hardest boss in the game.

    I disagree with you on a fundamental level here, and I'm not going to humor you by handicapping myself with shit like solving a rubix cube while I raid so it's "more difficult." I'm not a fucking circus clown, I don't juggle chainsaws while I raid because I'm some sort of difficulty-junkie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You've got no imagination then. The point is to MAKE it difficult for yourself. I'm sure you can find a way, if difficulty is really your thing.
    Oh no, I can imagine ways to make LFR difficult. You're talking about artificial difficulty, which as I've said repeatedly I have no interest in whatsoever, and you're apparently too dense to notice.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 03:31 PM.

  6. #1266
    That's all fine and dandy, but we weren't talking about averages. We're talking about casual vs hardcore guilds, and I'm willing to bet more than 85% of guilds are casual -- which puts killing heroic Jin'rokh 3 days ago quite easily within reach of a casual guild.
    Source? This seems more like some mumbo jumbo you made up to try and defend a undefensible postition?

    No where is casual defined because it can mean so many things... The only measure you can use is "average"

    They're hard to complete for the wrong reasons.
    Now your arguing semantics, the point was they are too hard. Not why they are too hard. If we get into why each person thinks they are too hard we have stepped into pandora's box, hell the debate on if they are too hard has been raging for 65 pages... twisting it now to try and define the why of it is a fools errand!

  7. #1267
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Source? This seems more like some mumbo jumbo you made up to try and defend a undefensible postition?

    No where is casual defined because it can mean so many things... The only measure you can use is "average"
    No, that's the only measure you can use. I personally know damn well the guild I'm talking about is a casual guild, I was in it for christs sake. But no, apparently you know more about the guild I was in than I do.


    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Now your arguing semantics, the point was they are too hard. Not why they are too hard. If we get into why each person thinks they are too hard we have stepped into pandora's box, hell the debate on if they are too hard has been raging for 65 pages... twisting it now to try and define the why of it is a fools errand!
    I'm not arguing semantics, I'm defending my initial statements. When I joined this topic I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, so I don't give two shits about the 65 pages prior and whatever nonsense they delved into. You want to attack my statements go ahead, but don't drag other random crap into it.

  8. #1268
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    You're basically saying that instead of levelling the playing field, we should lower the bar until anyone with access to a credit card can kill the hardest boss in the game.
    No, I am quite sure I said so that the weakest existing team can complete it.
    I disagree with you on a fundamental level here, and I'm not going to humor you by handicapping myself with shit like solving a rubix cube while I raid so it's "more difficult." I'm not a fucking circus clown, I don't juggle chainsaws while I raid because I'm some sort of difficulty-junkie.
    Then may I respectfully suggest you are mistaken when you intone that you seek difficulty. I hope you follow my reasoning here - you said you wanted more challenge. I gave you a way to get that challenge, which you then rejected.


    Oh no, I can imagine ways to make LFR difficult. You're talking about artificial difficulty, which as I've said repeatedly I have no interest in whatsoever, and you're apparently too dense to notice.
    How is it any more artificial than getting the designers of wow do it? You do realise it's all arbitary, right?
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  9. #1269
    No, that's the only measure you can use. I personally know damn well the guild I'm talking about is a casual guild, I was in it for christs sake.
    No, you know what YOU consider casual... not what the definition is of casual becasue it cant be defined in this game. Ask a 100 people what casual is and you will get a 100 different answers... 2 nights a week, 2 hours a night, not min/maxing profs, not using reforge addons or sites, not pulling 90% of your theoretical dps or hps, wiping on first heroic 100 times, just going with friends when you can, no scheduled raid nights, just weekends...
    The list of what could be considered casual is as long as my johnson... and just as irrelevant to what your saying in conjunction to this thread.

    But no, apparently you know more about the guild I was in than I do
    I have no clue about your guild except to know that YOU consider it casual, I might consider it hard core because I only raid 1 night a week for 1 hour and you raid 3 days a week for 3 hours...
    Perception, look it up and maybe you will understand what the points being made here are all about.

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Then may I respectfully suggest you are mistaken when you intone that you seek difficulty. I hope you follow my reasoning here - you said you wanted more challenge. I gave you a way to get that challenge, which you then rejected.
    Quote me where I said I wanted more challenge. I said I enjoy difficulty, and I want better class balance. I consider most of the fights this tier to be trivial mechanically, and only really difficult due to poor class balance. I don't care if they stay at this level of mechanical difficulty, because I know people complain like crazy once things get any more complicated than they are right now, and the fights end up getting flat nerfs as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How is it any more artificial than getting the designers of wow do it? You do realise it's all arbitary, right?
    It's the difference between trying to do a marathon blindfolded and getting jetpacks banned from said marathon (or at the very least, give everyone jet packs). I want everyone to be on the same playing field. I should be allowed to complain about Steve McGee getting to use a jet pack in my marathons, and I think you're an asshole for telling me imbalances like that are perfectly fine because they "make classes interesting" and that I should blindfold myself in my marathons if I like difficulty so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    No, you know what YOU consider casual... not what the definition is of casual becasue it cant be defined in this game. Ask a 100 people what casual is and you will get a 100 different answers... 2 nights a week, 2 hours a night, not min/maxing profs, not using reforge addons or sites, not pulling 90% of your theoretical dps or hps, wiping on first heroic 100 times, just going with friends when you can, no scheduled raid nights, just weekends...
    The list of what could be considered casual is as long as my johnson... and just as irrelevant to what your saying in conjunction to this thread.



    I have no clue about your guild except to know that YOU consider it casual, I might consider it hard core because I only raid 1 night a week for 1 hour and you raid 3 days a week for 3 hours...
    Perception, look it up and maybe you will understand what the points being made here are all about.
    I'm sure there's somebody out there that doesn't raid at all and considers what you do hardcore. Fact is the only person that can quantify what you do is you, and I know that guild is a casual guild. They don't really care if you show up late or have to leave early, just do your best, kill bosses and have fun. As long as the guild itself considers what it does casual, my point stands and you're in the wrong for saying otherwise.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 03:50 PM.

  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Quote me where I said I wanted more challenge. I said I enjoy difficulty, and I want better class balance. I consider most of the fights this tier to be trivial mechanically, and only really difficult due to poor class balance. I don't care if they stay at this level of mechanical difficulty, because I know people complain like crazy once things get any more complicated than they are right now, and the fights end up getting flat nerfs as a result.
    Ok, so replace the word "challenge" with the word "difficulty." You said you wanted more difficulty. Igave you a way to get more difficuty, which you rejected.

    I therefore conclude you don't really want more difficulty. Can you see why i did that?


    It's the difference between trying to do a marathon blindfolded and getting jetpacks banned from said marathon (or at the very least, give everyone jet packs). I want everyone to be on the same playing field.
    I thought you wanted more difficulty?
    I should be allowed to complain about Steve McGee getting to use a jet pack in my marathons, and I think you're an asshole for telling me imbalances like that are perfectly fine because they "make classes interesting" and that I should blindfold myself in my marathons if I like difficulty so much.
    Nowhere have I insulted you here. I'd like an apology for this. Man up and then we can continue.
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  12. #1272
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    Class balance is a seperate issue from raid difficulty.
    if you *feel* that you cant kill a boss without X,Y or Z classes, maybe you should recruit that class?. For the record, everything on Normal mode can be done with any class set up at all, it like, really really dosnt matter. Most heroics are not too class dependent, but I agree certain classes make the fights much much easier. (If you want these classes, recruit them).
    Stop blaming raid difficulty for your inability to recruit a balanced roster.
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  13. #1273
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nowhere have I insulted you here. I'd like an apology for this. Man up and then we can continue.
    Why exactly should I have to man up for anything? I still absolutely think you're an asshole for suggesting that class balance is fine as is, fights should just be nerfed, and that I should wear a blindfold if I want difficulty.

    Sequence of events:

    Me: "I play video games specifically searching for difficulty."

    Choptimus: "At least for 10man HC you are punished far too much for not having enough warlocks/mages/rogues/monks/paladins."

    Me: "Have to agree. In general, Blizzard did a horrible job at class balance this tier."

    paralleluniverse: "There are a large amount of bosses where 1 person can wipe the raid."

    Me: "the fights I've seen so far have not been "hard" in any sense of the word. They are simply victims of poor class balance."

    You: "I find this perspective interesting because it seems to seperate difficulty from the actual people who will be performing the tasks."

    Me: "I just don't like it when people try and claim fights are difficult simply because class balance is horrible. A difficult fight should demand high awareness and fast response times from everyone involved. Most of the fights this tier don't do that, they simply demand you have the appropriate classes available."

    You: "It should indeed. Problem is, this is what normal modes are now like."

    Me: "I'm going to take a wild guess here. You don't have a warlock in your raid, do you?"

    You: "Oh no, if the turtles came out in a conga line ready to be kicked i'd still find it tricky."

    Me: "I just want classes to be balanced so you're not forced to have specific, arbitrary classes to make fights feasible. If a conga line of turtles moving at 30% speed is difficult for you, so be it. I'm not buying that it's as difficult as a spattering of mach-4 turtles going in every direction though."

    You: "Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity. Once you are overloaded, it doesn't matter what else gets added."

    Me: "So.. you just don't think there's any problem with certain classes being mind-bogglingly overpowered. It makes them unique, so it's good."

    You: "But you don't think that just making the bosses doable with the lowest possible spec and if the better ones do it easier is a solution?"

    Me: "No, because then the fight would be completely trivial with the correct classes and be boring as hell. Did you miss the part where I said I play games like this for the challenge?"

    You: "then play the least optimal class. Or wear a blindfold. Not really seeing an argument whereby everyone has to struggle like fuck just so you can have something you can do for yourself anyway."

    I can go on. This conversation only devolves further. Apparently you like the idea of difficulty disappearing from this game, anyone that wants it should wear a blindfold while they raid. Bring on the blanket nerfs! To hell with class balance!
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 04:09 PM.

  14. #1274
    I'm not arguing semantics, I'm defending my initial statements. When I joined this topic I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, so I don't give two shits about the 65 pages prior and whatever nonsense they delved into. You want to attack my statements go ahead, but don't drag other random crap into it.
    Yet you said:

    Honestly I don't understand the complaints about difficulty at all. I play video games specifically searching for difficulty.
    No one is "attacking" anything, I am having a discussion and I do not agree with your double talk so I am pointing out where your making mistakes... if thats attacking your statements you have much to learn in this world still... People can disagree with each other without all the histrionics.

  15. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Yet you said:



    No one is "attacking" anything, I am having a discussion and I do not agree with your double talk so I am pointing out where your making mistakes... if thats attacking your statements you have much to learn in this world still... People can disagree with each other without all the histrionics.
    It's not double talk, and I find it hilarious that you think it is.

    A fight can be difficult due to class imbalance, while simultaneously not actually being a particularly difficult fight. This is not a very complicated concept.

    Imagine a fight with self-destructing adds that explode and instantly kill your raid after 5 minutes. They have 100m HP each and there are 100 of them, but sadly your raid has too many <Insert Random Class> and can't AOE them down quickly enough, so you die.

    This imaginary fight is a very difficult fight and can quite easily prevent a guild from progressing.

    Yet at the same time, it is not actually difficult in the literal sense, it's a tank and spank fight -- the most trivial possible type. Yet, it is still exceptionally difficult because it requires amazing AOE DPS that only certain classes are able to provide.

  16. #1276
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Why exactly should I have to man up for anything? I still absolutely think you're an asshole for suggesting that class balance is fine as is, fights should just be nerfed, and that I should wear a blindfold if I want difficulty.
    !
    No apology?

    Weak. We're done.
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  17. #1277
    I'm sure there's somebody out there that doesn't raid at all and considers what you do hardcore. Fact is the only person that can quantify what you do is you, and I know that guild is a casual guild.
    Again you mistep and put your foot in it... how can you KNOW that guild is casual when there is no definition what casual actually is?
    You know YOU THINK its casual because you want it to be that.
    Without a set point of what defines casual or hardcore or any other level of raiding there can be no casual... its like saying its dark when there is no light but light was never invented... how can you possibly define dark without the point of light? How can you claim your guild is casual when you have no clue what casual means to the othter 8 million players?

    The short answer is: you cant...

    So trying to pretend that because your a "casual" guild and you were able to do heroic Jinrohk that SOMEHOW means ToT isnt hard... is nothing but horse dung.
    Try again with someone that doesnt have above a 8th grade education, you may actually get someone to agree.

    They don't really care if you show up late or have to leave early, just do your best, kill bosses and have fun. As long as the guild itself considers what it does casual, my point stands and you're in the wrong for saying otherwise.
    Your point stands that ToT isnt hard because your guild of 10 people consider themselves casual and have completed it???
    Hell I guess I am wrong for saying otherwise... how dare I pretend that your wrong...

    /facedesk

    Do people actually read what they are typing or do they just throw words at the screen and whatever sticks is what they post?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 12:34 PM ----------

    It's not double talk, and I find it hilarious that you think it is.
    It is the definiton of double talk... you say its easy, then say its hard without specific classes... its either hard or not, the symantics of WHY is not the discussion.

    A fight can be difficult due to class imbalance,
    Then its difficult... the why means nothing!

    This is not a very complicated concept.
    I guess it is, for some reason I dont get that you say fights are easy then say they are hard. I mean anything is easy if you can out gear, out class, out skill it... again with the symantics.

    This imaginary fight is a very difficult fight and can quite easily prevent a guild from progressing.
    Which would make it HARD for the vast majority of raids that cant stack the appropriate class... wow back to its hard again..

    Yet at the same time, it is not actually difficult in the literal sense, it's a tank and spank fight -- the most trivial possible type. Yet, it is still exceptionally difficult because it requires amazing AOE DPS that only certain classes are able to provide.
    So its hard, got it!

  18. #1278
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Again you mistep and put your foot in it... how can you KNOW that guild is casual when there is no definition what casual actually is?
    You know YOU THINK its casual because you want it to be that.
    Without a set point of what defines casual or hardcore or any other level of raiding there can be no casual... its like saying its dark when there is no light but light was never invented... how can you possibly define dark without the point of light? How can you claim your guild is casual when you have no clue what casual means to the othter 8 million players?

    The short answer is: you cant...

    So trying to pretend that because your a "casual" guild and you were able to do heroic Jinrohk that SOMEHOW means ToT isnt hard... is nothing but horse dung.
    Try again with someone that doesnt have above a 8th grade education, you may actually get someone to agree.



    Your point stands that ToT isnt hard because your guild of 10 people consider themselves casual and have completed it???
    Hell I guess I am wrong for saying otherwise... how dare I pretend that your wrong...

    /facedesk

    Do people actually read what they are typing or do they just throw words at the screen and whatever sticks is what they post?
    Two things:

    1. I'm pretty sure I specifically said I'm no longer in that guild, and haven't been for months, so you kind of look stupid by talking about it being my guild in the present tense.
    2. If I can't define a guild I was in as casual, I'm pretty sure you can't define it as hardcore either. No concrete definition, bro!

    I still don't understand what your point is. Is a casual guild a guild that consists of players that play casually? I'm pretty sure 10~ hours a week is considered casual by most. I know people that watch more TV than that, are they hardcore TV enthusiasts? On the same spectrum, I know people that play WoW 2-3 hours a week, only PvP, and are elitist and would tear you a new asshole if you called them casual just because they play 2-3 hours a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    It is the definiton of double talk... you say its easy, then say its hard without specific classes... its either hard or not, the symantics of WHY is not the discussion.
    Do you have some sort of disorder? You seem to have a very weak grasp on this topic.

    "Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words."

    I'm being pretty explicit here. No disguising, distortion or reversal.

    I actually thought I did a pretty good job of spelling it out to you, and I feel like you're trying to troll me at this point. I legitimately tried to explain it like I was talking to a 5 year old.

    The semantics of why is quite literally the entire discussion at hand.

    How could it be anything but? Unless you're pulling a fast one on me and using some doublespeak!

    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    A fight can be difficult due to class imbalance,
    Then its difficult... the why means nothing!
    Oh, my sides. The why means nothing guys! Alert the presses!
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 04:56 PM.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by Skit View Post
    to hard to easy, to hot to cold, in and its out, to old to new.. this is the internet.
    Too*

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  20. #1280
    Blizzard should stick to the current tuning for Normals. Give it 2-3 more tiers and we'll have more guilds adjust to it. 30% nerfed Dragon Soul made raiders too overconfident about their actual ability. T14 and T15 are reminding them raids aren't getting such severe nerfs anymore.

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