Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[mvaliz]

I think it's kinda funny. When the raids are accessible, the forums are filled with complaints about how Blizzard is catering to "casuals" at the cost of "true raiders". When they turn up the difficulty, suddenly the forums are filled with complaints about the game being too hard.

If you haven't learned that the community is divided into multiple types of players, you've got issues.

Hard dungeon is released: Those who love harder dungeons don't complain as they're busy playing. Those who hate "hard things" go to the forums and complain.

Easy dungeon is released: Those who enjoy faster fun dungeons with lots of things to do don't complain as they're busy playing. Those who hate "easy" things go to the forums and complain.

[pallyopness]

ok, i had to bite.....I have raided hardcore top world progression, got tired of elitest attitudes and purposely xferred to lower progression realms in search of people with better attitudes who just needed some help learning. The fact of the matter is people dont want to put in the time and effort to down bosses. I have worked with many who both have become top notch raiders and others who felt they didnt need help and the problem was all blizzard and not them. PREPARATION is key to downing bosses. This isnt TBC or vanilla wow. There are hundreds of resources available to learn both mechanics and strats of fights to overall toon knowledge in a self help raiding for dummies tutorial. The ones who claim elitest attitudes are the ones that dont feel they need to research or look anything up to do a boss fight. They go into lfr wipe a few times get determination stacks and IGNORE mechanics and think they can do regulars. I have had more experience from players who think their ilvl=skill this expansion than ever before....we had a 510 ilvl "lfr/rep pro" mage that refused to take advice because he was 510 ilvl and better than anyone with a lower ilvl.....he pulled 60k dps on boss fights...80k on jinrokh.....the problem is not a tuning issue for ToT...it's perfect....the issue is player desires and lack of preparation and refusal to do what is necessary to raid.

[Crushima]

ToT gets nerfed next week when 5.3 comes out, due to valor upgrades and free ilevel600 cloaks.

[Chrispotter]

Maybe people are tired of coming across this kind of attitude all the time...

Which attitude is that?. I'm sure that 12 year old education is harder than current normal mode Throne of Thunder. If people really struggle to this extent in normal ToT they have much bigger issues than this game and IMO they should quit to deal with their personal/medical issues.

[hulkgor]

ToT Challenging? ToT normal is an absolute face roll, and even most heroic fights are just as easy. Doing them on the proper ilvl makes them absolute jokes, with a couple of exceptions.

I really cannot understand how people can consider ToT (normal) challenging, when it's absolutely basic, with very little 'wipe-mechanics'... Is the average raider quality really that low? I'm actually shocked.

[Keoren]

Most players don't have enough working memory to raid at these levels of reaction

That is a demeaning generalisation with nothing to back it up. Even if someone doesn't excel in a rotation or a priority system, it doesn't mean that they don't have the cognitive capability to do so. The PvE playstyles in WoW are fairly simple and the biggest challenge is adjusting your abilities to the varying situations during a fight.

Rather than asking what the players are capable of doing I think the focus should be on determining what the average player is comfortable with, while also offering the players on a higher level ways to push the abilities further. A good example of this is the timing and setting up of a good combustion as a fire mage. It is rewarding to the good (and lucky) players all the while keeping the basic priority system fairly simple.

That said, I don't think this is too relevant to the topic at hand unless we start drawing conclusions about the abilities being too hard to manage during the fights in Throne of Thunder specifically. It is more a topic for when discussing the overall class design.

[Chrispotter]

That is a demeaning generalisation with nothing to back it up. Even if someone doesn't excel in a rotation or a priority system, it doesn't mean that they don't have the cognitive capability to do so. The PvE playstyles in WoW are fairly simple and the biggest challenge is adjusting your abilities to the varying situations during a fight.

Rather than asking what the players are capable of doing I think the focus should be on determining what the average player is comfortable with, while also offering the players on a higher level a possibility to push the abilities further. A good example of this is the setting up of a good combustion as a fire mage. It is rewarding to the good (and lucky) players all the while keeping the basic priority system fairly simple.

If you are comfortable enough to remember your password to log in to the game, you are comfortable enough to do normal ToT with appropriate Gear levels. Okay doing ToT normal with 470 ilvl is probably a challenge, but if your main has 470 ilvl it just means you are not putting in the required effort.

[Tehterokkar]

ToT gets nerfed next week when 5.3 comes out, due to valor upgrades and free ilevel600 cloaks.

Cloaks aren't free, you have to complete the Legendary quest for them afaik. So you need to have done Secrets of Empire quest and Titan Runestone quest

[Ashardis]

Which attitude is that?. I'm sure that 12 year old education is harder than current normal mode Throne of Thunder. If people really struggle to this extent in normal ToT they have much bigger issues than this game and IMO they should quit to deal with their personal/medical issues.

Which attitude? Are you fucking shitting me which attitude? Exactly the shit you just left fall out your arse.
This incessant need to belittle others. The constant search for self reassurance by being a cunt to others

It shows a massive flaw in your ability to be a normal human being and respect what makes individuals different from one another.

[Crushima]

Cloaks aren't free, you have to complete the Legendary quest for them afaik. So you need to have done Secrets of Empire quest and Titan Runestone quest

You can do all the steps on LFR, so in my eyes they are 'free' at least, since you can be afk in lfr and get them.

[Deleted]

This fits the pattern sadly.

Whenever we reached the middle point of an expansion I have noticed on my server guilds start imploding and burning out.

In TBC tier 5 guilds imploded when attunements got lifted and tier 6 became accessible.

In Wrath when Ulduar was out many more established guilds died.

In Cata Firelands burned people out even more.

For MOP now we have Throne of Thunder.

Typically people will be back to faceroll the final raid of an expansion and prepare for levelling in the next one.

[Odina]

Typically people will be back to faceroll the final raid of an expansion and prepare for levelling in the next one.

Also typically around this time of year many of the younger players go MIA due to finals and then summer break comming up. I will be the first to say I'm lucky as our group is all around my age (33) so we do not see as much of a flux when this time of the year comes around!

but again it has nothing to do with all the other variables it's just a tuning issue in TOT that is killing guilds

[Beavis]

I think it's kinda funny. When the raids are accessible, the forums are filled with complaints about how Blizzard is catering to "casuals" at the cost of "true raiders". When they turn up the difficulty, suddenly the forums are filled with complaints about the game being too hard.

The Dunning–Kruger effect strikes again!

[pallyopness]

i mean honest question here.....if raids were too easy and you cleared them easily, would you still raid? seems to be you'd get tired of farming the same bosses for over a year just because blizzard caved into people not willing to prepare properly

[darklady]

It may be the cause of a raid to break up, but not a guild. That's usually due to a draconian, unfair, unresponsive.....well, the word shitty sums it all up, GM. If a raid was the only thing holding a guild together, it was never a good guild from the start.

[Chrispotter]

Which attitude? Are you fucking shitting me which attitude? Exactly the shit you just left fall out your arse.
This incessant need to belittle others. The constant search for self reassurance by being a cunt to others

It shows a massive flaw in your ability to be a normal human being and respect what makes individuals different from one another.

I'm not belittling them, at all. If they feel belittled it means that they themselves think they are idiots. If people are genuinely going into to ToT normal with 500-510 Gear level and Really struggling, I 100% feel sorry for them. My point is, people that struggle with ToT normal, and give up, are suuper bad. People that struggle with ToT Normal, watch videos on youtube for 10 minutes, read a quick class stickie on MMOC and then go into ToT the next week and progress, they are the people who should be applauded and should be continued to be given resources to learn so that they can work their way onto Heroic Raids, where there is a distinct lack of players.

If you have to give up because of ToT normal with gear higher than 495, I honestly beileve that your spare time would be better invested elsewhere, rather than giving up, then complaining on forums because its too hard. (Not saying You are doing this, but some people certainly do)

[Glorious Leader]

ToT normal is simple to hard and to say otherwise is ignorant. All that needs to be done with raiding is encaspulated in my signature.

[Beavis]

i mean honest question here.....if raids were too easy and you cleared them easily, would you still raid? seems to be you'd get tired of farming the same bosses for over a year just because blizzard caved into people not willing to prepare properly

Gating aside, I think Icecrown Citadel had it about perfect. Normal modes were simultaneously challenging enough to keep low skilled raiders occupied for months while easy enough for the moderate and high skilled guilds to blow through quickly enough to get to heroics. And then heroics were tuned in such a way that the high end guilds got to the truly challenging content fast while the people in the middle got to tangle with the lower end heroics. Pretty much all things to all people. And for the truly bad, there was 10-man normal.

Blizzard signed the death warrant for raiding when they merged lock outs. It was an absolutely insane decision.

[pallyopness]

i mean if normal ToT is too hard and your ilvl is adequate, that is why blizzard made LFR.....if you feel that you are better than the LFR raid but arent progressing as a guild, then simple fact is you need to look for resources to better yourself. It falls on player responsibility, NOT blizzard. There are 3 different raiding difficulties.....Heroic raiding was not meant to be for everyone so blizzard isnt going to simply nerf content at the start of releases. Im sorry if those stuck on horridon with 500+ ilvls feel its overtuned and think they are better than other players in lfr, but the fact of the matter is you arent. There are different difficulties to help you get better, if you dont utilize the system and help yourself achieve a better playing ability its not up to blizzard to hand you kills.

[Osmeric]

i mean if normal ToT is too hard and your ilvl is adequate, that is why blizzard made LFR.....

This argument has been made and debunked repeatedly on these forums. Go back and read before repeating this fallacy.