Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Glorious Leader]

Which specific trash is annoying (honest question)? Only one I can think of is dark animus, those fuckers are hard as shit.

Yea DA trash is pretty bad. Snails before Ji Kuun are just annoying. Running around to kill the stupid mogu to summon Megara is annoying. Again none of it is about being difficult, it's just about how inconvenient it is. The snails before ji kuun are a perfect example. They just kill you out right and in alot of cases just feel like they were meant to push the raid back and delay it as much as possible. Not for entertainment value or for immersion purposes.

[jax]

em·ploy·ee
[em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee] Show IPA
noun
a person working for another person or a business firm for pay.

All I know is that I pay Blizzard to make/maintain a game for me to play...
Sure sounds like they work for me.
/shrug

[hyphnos]

I have to ask why are you putting some moral spin on this whole thing? Their is no moral perception to be put in here. It's very simple. The developers failed to provide an experience that was fun so they left. What sense does it make to insult them? What sense does it make to distort this issue by adding your own perverse sense of righteousness on this whole thing? come down of your fucking horse ffs...

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:11 PM ----------



And when they do guess who they leave behind? Sure as hell won't be the casuals...

After reading the comments on the front page about Throne of Thunder, it doesn't sound to me like they have a clue how to make things better.

The lead encounter designer is citing completion rates to say ToT is a success and completely ignoring the dropoff in absolute number of guilds completing ToT vs 5.0 vs 4.3...

[pallyopness]

and this is what is wrong with society.......

[Deleted]

So basically you believe that there is no such thing as personal responsibility. People that have no gumption are leaches on society.

No, I believe that if you pay for a service and it doesn't arrive, the fault isn't with the payee. The failure lies with the person who fails to provide the service.

That is, I believe responsibility lies with blizzard when they lose subs or have lots of people around who can't play the game properly.

[cabyio]

I have to ask why are you putting some moral spin on this whole thing? Their is no moral perception to be put in here. It's very simple. The developers failed to provide an experience that was fun so they left. What sense does it make to insult them? What sense does it make to distort this issue by adding your own perverse sense of righteousness on this whole thing? come down of your fucking horse ffs..

While I agree there is less (not none) moral implications in a game, I was mainly referring to Injin's text:

if you paid the fee to be a doctor to a trained professional and after several years of their tuition you aren't a doctor, they did indeed fail.

While I agree that it is possible for the failure to lie with the teacher, the student also has responsibility in this relationship. That whole post basically says its never the fault of the individual, which is bullshit.

[Glorious Leader]

and this is what is wrong with society.......

why is it that almost everyone defending this current raid philosophy is also massively patronizing?

[Lethey Alexandros]

The lambrynth phase and spectrum phases aren't the problem IMHO. It's the life drain on top of all that. I mean durumu is a nightmare. He's like 3 major boss mechanics rolled into one. If this were tbc he'd be 3 seperate bosses.

To me and just my opinion. the only time life drain seems a problem is when the tank gets it. They wy my guild handles it though is by haveing people pair off. So my self and out arms warrior stay together to take it off each other etc. Dunno if you and your guild have tried this but helps alot.

However I do agree, there is alot going on there in that fight. Something else I feel unnecessary in ToT is the venom mancers ghost. I just killed the source of the poison why do they need to spawn an after image that does the same thing and blends in with the poison pools lol.

[cabyio]

No, I believe that if you pay for a service and it doesn't arrive, the fault isn't with the payee. The failure lies with the person who fails to provide the service.

That is, I believe responsibility lies with blizzard when they lose subs or have lots of people around who can't play the game properly.

Learning is not a commodity product. You don't just pay for it and they dump it into your brain. There is equal responsibility on the part of the student and the teacher. Whether or not this translates over to a game... not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

[Deleted]

LOLOLOL think again buddy:

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Does that sound like you employ them? It more or less sounds like we are guinea pigs to a testing of their game code on a basis that we pay 15 a month. lolol

Since when does being employed imply that your employer owns you? Where do you live? The deep south of the US circa 1800 or something?

[Glorious Leader]

While I agree there is less (not none) moral implications in a game, I was mainly referring to Injin's text:



While I agree that it is possible for the failure to lie with the teacher, the student also has responsibility in this relationship. That whole post basically says its never the fault of the individual, which is bullshit.

this would potentially be true if the relationship between blizzard and its's customer base was that of a teacher and a student and frankly even if it were true well then blizzard fails as a teacher too. They don't provide the tools or the environment for players to fix and get better with what they generally struggle with. It is however irrelevant. While you may see yourself in such a manner, the average player who pays for this game doesn't view themselves as a student to be patronized by a professor. They are a customer who wants satisfaction.

[Deleted]

Learning is not a commodity product. You don't just pay for it and they dump it into your brain. There is equal responsibility on the part of the student and the teacher. Whether or not this translates over to a game... not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

Not at all, it's up to any teacher to get their student engaged, and if necessary show them how to learn.

[cabyio]

Yea DA trash is pretty bad. Snails before Ji Kuun are just annoying. Running around to kill the stupid mogu to summon Megara is annoying. Again none of it is about being difficult, it's just about how inconvenient it is. The snails before ji kuun are a perfect example. They just kill you out right and in alot of cases just feel like they were meant to push the raid back and delay it as much as possible. Not for entertainment value or for immersion purposes.

We have a ton of fun when we do the snails. We have a running bet, anyone who dies to the snails has to donate a sha crystal to the raid bank. We laugh and have fun doing that trash.

[Glorious Leader]

To me and just my opinion. the only time life drain seems a problem is when the tank gets it. They wy my guild handles it though is by haveing people pair off. So my self and out arms warrior stay together to take it off each other etc. Dunno if you and your guild have tried this but helps alot.

However I do agree, there is alot going on there in that fight. Something else I feel unnecessary in ToT is the venom mancers ghost. I just killed the source of the poison why do they need to spawn an after image that does the same thing and blends in with the poison pools lol.

Well see the thing about life drain especially on 10 man is that it forces a raid that is already wracking it's brain trying to organize everything (standing in spectrum, chasing down red adds and doing their general raid business) to get another level of coordination on top of that. Like so many attempts we had him at 10% or so and then life drain came and it jst prolonged the fight into another spectrum phase. This is actually another problem with their raid design philosophy. On 10 man you send nine players to stand in spectrums to help split the dmg up. In 25 man you send 9 players to do the exact same thing. It makes ZERO sense and is just brutal for 10 mans. WE've got good raid coordination so we deal with it and we've got players with good raid awareness and good leadership but that doesn't mean it wasn't a struggle and that doesn't mean guilds who aren't as strong in those areas aren't hurting bad.

[Lethey Alexandros]

Not at all, it's up to any teacher to get their student engaged, and if necessary show them how to learn.

Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.

[Glorious Leader]

We have a ton of fun when we do the snails. We have a running bet, anyone who dies to the snails has to donate a sha crystal to the raid bank. We laugh and have fun doing that trash.

Yea man I agree. To an extent trash does let people unwind and just chill with each other which is the best part of organized raiding. Just having a blast with people on vent ya know. Having said that though I mean it's also really annoying at times to when theirs so much of it and so much of it is obnoxious to. Maybe ToES was to little trash? I don't know I never heard anyone complain hey wheres my raid trash blizzard? Especially since we seem to have no luck on trash epics either..

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:26 PM ----------

Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.

But the teacher is also responsible for giving the student the tools and a good environment to learn in. If were going to go with this hey blizzard is my college professor model then they fail at that to. Saying the teacher can only teach is irellevant when BLizzard isn't even doing that properly. You know I bought sc2 a day or to ago the expansion and man those people know what normal means. They spend so much time teaching you crap. That's how you do normal for the majority of your player base.

[Deleted]

Yes and no, the teach needs to be engageing and try to convey the material to the student in a way they understand but at the same time the student needs to make an effort to retain what it is they are trying to learn. After all the teacher can only teach, they can not give the student the desire to learn, that comes from the student them self.

If there is no will/desire to learn then no matter how the teacher presents it, they will never learn.

Nope.

Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.

[pallyopness]

ok well in the end i will go have fun wiping to heroic bosses and those that refuse to learn and listen can bitch about stuff being too hard. i don't lose here. enjoy your blaming of blizzard for your lack of effort. i shall see you all in raid!!! well maybe not lololol.

[melodramocracy]

em·ploy·ee
[em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee, em-ploi-ee] Show IPA
noun
a person working for another person or a business firm for pay.

All I know is that I pay Blizzard to make/maintain a game for me to play...
Sure sounds like they work for me.
/shrug

And here's the great disconnect. You pay for a game you happen to enjoy. Not a game that you'd enjoy if they only changed x, y, z to appease you. You are a customer, Blizzard is not your employee.

When you no longer enjoy it, you no longer play it. Simple.

[Deleted]

this thread become a joke,
really.