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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    lol, there is no such thing as a skill cap.
    They just dont have the desire/motivation to improve
    I'm sorry, but I disagree. There may be a variety of reasons for this, but I know people who were absolutely skill capped for one reason or another. Generally had to do with their age, their computer, some form of disability (covering medications they may be on, problems with their eyes, problems with their hands/coordination, etc).
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  2. #1022
    I also disagree that there is no "skill cap". In that blog about cognitive capabilties linked around p20, the number of bits of info people can focus on at once varies between 5 and 9. So what if you're one of the 5 crowd? That same post showed the average number of mechanics involved in a ToT boss fight was around 19 from memory, so it's going to get overwhelming for such a player.

    Is it something that could be improved? Sure, in time. But if you're going to tell me that if you were in that situation you would practice for hours, look up stat weight spreadsheets, perfect your action prioritity list on a training dummy until you can do it from muscle memory, farm VPs/coins/gold to upgrade every slot you can for any edge, etc. JUST so you can play with your friends and not hold them back, then I'd have to suggest that you're the exception, not the rule.

    No one is saying that it's impossible for some people to get better, only that when the effort involved to get good "enough" outweighs the reward, in this case being able to play with your friends in challenging yet overcome-able content (which, let's face it, has been pretty well established as the main complaint), then people are going to stop playing the game.

  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    lol, there is no such thing as a skill cap.
    They just dont have the desire/motivation to improve
    This is such a narrow mindset. We have a couple people with health issues in our raid group, but they are awesome people to raid with. This has been the only expansion where the officers got together and seriously talked about benching these people because no matter how many icy-veins or noxxic sites we told them to look at, their play could just not improve. Not that they are 'bad' raiders, it's just they're probably getting 70% out of their toon that a 'heroic' raider would. What do you say to these people? Sorry, you can't play this style that you like so much because you can't get past the 2nd boss. Go to LFR, that should be fun enough for you?

    Who are you to dictate what people should and shouldn't like, what they do or do not deserve to do?
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  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I'm sorry, but I disagree. There may be a variety of reasons for this, but I know people who were absolutely skill capped for one reason or another.
    and ima have to disagree with you
    Unless the player is actually mentally/physically handicapped, there is no reason for a player to reach a skill level of top end raiders, if they choose to be

    There is no special gene within certain players that make them a better player. Coordination and all that stuff are things that can be improved upon

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 12:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    . Not that they are 'bad' raiders, it's just they're probably getting 70% out of their toon that a 'heroic' raider would.
    which means they have room to improve
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  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    Not that they are 'bad' raiders, it's just they're probably getting 70% out of their toon that a 'heroic' raider would.
    I call bull. If your doing 70% of what a heroic raider does, you should be able to get through most of normal without an issue.

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and ima have to disagree with you
    Unless the player is actually mentally/physically handicapped, there is no reason for a player to reach a skill level of top end raiders, if they choose to be

    There is no special gene within certain players that make them a better player. Coordination and all that stuff are things that can be improved upon

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 12:43 AM ----------


    which means they have room to improve
    Black people can become white with enough work. There is no genes or anything in their nature making them black. They just don't work hard enough to be white.

    If you disagree, please name the exact genes that makes someone black.

  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    Who are you to dictate what people should and shouldn't like, what they do or do not deserve to do?
    It's a fine line. Apart from health/disability issues or a simple unwillingness to put the time/effort in, I haven't seen people who are "skill capped". I've seen a couple of people be overwhelmed by mechanics but that generally improves with time and confidence.

    I've seen the "I pay the same amount as you - why shouldn't I get to see the content" type arguments banded about. I could also say "I pay the same amount as him for the gym... Why do I not have rock-hard abs!?".

  8. #1028
    Lol. This thread has derailed wildly off-topic. YES! TOT IS A CHALLENGING RAID! I'm sure once the statistics come out for how long each tier took for the world & US top guilds to clear it we will all realize. This is probably the most self responsible mechanic driven raid i've ever seen. I can't think of a fight where all raid members DON'T need to take some type of personal responsibility to execute mechanics in the fight. Of course normal modes are always going to be more forgiving, and the wish-to-be hardcore raider that hasn't competitively progressed in heroics would disagree, but I assure you this tier of heroics hasn't been a push over. That can easily drain the energy and motivation from a guild once the flaws have been revealed due to mechanically driven boss fights.
    Last edited by Atorius; 2013-05-17 at 01:09 AM.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and ima have to disagree with you
    Unless the player is actually mentally/physically handicapped, there is no reason for a player to reach a skill level of top end raiders, if they choose to be

    There is no special gene within certain players that make them a better player. Coordination and all that stuff are things that can be improved upon
    And I'm going to have to disagree with you, in a way. People learn/improve at different rates, it's not a direct correlation between effort put in and speed/quality of outcome. Some people just aren't capable of improving that fast.

    Also, while there's obviously no "great at games" gene, I'm no geneticist or anything even close, but I'm pretty sure that things like cognitive ability, reaction speed, information processing etc. is probably something that is, at least in part, genetic. Again, absolutely possible to train (to a point), not denying that at all, but I can't agree that everyone is equal in potential capability when it comes to this. Disability or not.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and ima have to disagree with you
    Unless the player is actually mentally/physically handicapped, there is no reason for a player to reach a skill level of top end raiders, if they choose to be

    There is no special gene within certain players that make them a better player. Coordination and all that stuff are things that can be improved upon

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 12:43 AM ----------


    which means they have room to improve
    I feel like you're not actually reading what anyone who disagrees with you is saying.
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  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and ima have to disagree with you
    Unless the player is actually mentally/physically handicapped, there is no reason for a player to reach a skill level of top end raiders, if they choose to be
    Oh you silly person. There is variability in every category of human performance, and not just "handicapped vs. not". We are biological entities, and the equipment we use to think and act has a huge diversity of differences. This is how evolution works, after all: selection based on small differences in traits.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    It's a fine line. Apart from health/disability issues or a simple unwillingness to put the time/effort in, I haven't seen people who are "skill capped". I've seen a couple of people be overwhelmed by mechanics but that generally improves with time and confidence.

    I've seen the "I pay the same amount as you - why shouldn't I get to see the content" type arguments banded about. I could also say "I pay the same amount as him for the gym... Why do I not have rock-hard abs!?".
    Look, most of us are, in real life, fairly reasonable people. I consider myself a very skilled raider. However, the people I raid with, we probably won't get to the end of ToT until 5.4 is out. I've accepted, that as a group, we will probably not get into heroics at all - collectively we're not that skilled. I enjoyed the LK model; I didn't mind that the gear was different, it felt good to progress with a good group of people.

    This tier, we're currently stuck on Megaera. It took us 40+ wipes to get Horridon, Council, and Tortos down... each. The amount of stuff in each boss fight is way more in previous expansions across the board. I don't mind that these bosses are hard; the problem is that it's the beginning of T15, and we had no alternatives. We already had the normal gear from HoF/Terrace, and even though we've prodded and pushed, people are not doing LFR to fill those slots where they can't buy valor gear, which in turn they don't have the rep to buy the SPA stuff.

    "Oh, but just bench them!" You might say, "Find more recruits!" Jolly good! Why don't I just wave my wand and have a plethora of skilled recruits to choose from on a dwindling population server? There is a TON of crap that 'normal/casual/insertchosennamehere' guilds have to deal with; Blizzard has done a poor job fixing the broken tools they've given us.

    This, my heroic raiding friends, is what a fairly average group looks like. Realistically, we'll have a few people quit during the summer, and then our group will fall apart. Most of the remaining group will either quit the game, or look for greener pastures elsewhere and may not have a group by 5.4.

    I would think you'd want MORE people raiding so you would have a healthier pool of players to choose from; not exclude people from probably one of the few areas in this game that still gives you joy. We all know LFR isn't raiding. It's like riding the log ride at the amusement park because your 3 year old son wants to.
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  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Oh you silly person. There is variability in every category of human performance, and not just "handicapped vs. not". We are biological entities, and the equipment we use to think and act has a huge diversity of differences. This is how evolution works, after all: selection based on small differences in traits.
    Which is why we advance so slowly. Most people suck at pretty much everything.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    Look, most of us are, in real life, fairly reasonable people. I consider myself a very skilled raider. However, the people I raid with, we probably won't get to the end of ToT until 5.4 is out. I've accepted, that as a group, we will probably not get into heroics at all - collectively we're not that skilled etc.
    You've just described my situation almost exactly. I think some people playing at a higher level have a bit of a misconception of what the situation is at the lower levels. This has happened to 3 guilds I've been in this Xpac, and it looks like it's about to happen again with the guild I'm currently in.

    But you know what they say, if everyone around you is an a-hole, then you're probably the a-hole

  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazs View Post
    We have all seen alot of changes come with throne of thunder. In all honesty I think they are all for the better. But I wanted to bring to everyones attention the difficulty of this tier. this isnt to QQ about how it is too hard. because TOT is the best raid we have had since Ulduar. but to point out the stress it has been causing alot of guild and I wonder if it is the reason guilds are falling apart.

    Becuase of the difficulty can this be the reason we see fatboss fall. and see Exodus fall apart. or is it simply becuase the content is rolling out too quickly and we arent given a chance to breathe or take a break between races for top tier progression.

    All in all. whatever the cause be. I wanted to see what the community thought. I know guilds rise. guilds fall. but this patch. not becuase content is bad. I believe the difficulty is causing strain and what wouldnt seem like faults in a raid team are now becoming very apparent. I just reflect and see alot of it happening.
    I'm sorry, I usually try not to lol at people's ignorance but LOL!

    Blaming raid difficulty? Seriously? If you actually bothered to look up the facts, Killars from Exodus made a public post about why they weren't going to be continuing in the world first races any more, as to Fatboss, it wasn't the difficulty either, it was simple fact of player burn out. Alot of these players have played since days of Vanilla and TBC and Wotlk so when you consider the amount of years that alone adds up to, then add in Cata and MoP, it's basically 5-9 yrs of constant raiding and grinding on mains and then alts so they can funnel more gear back to mains again. Of course some guilds are gonna fall along the way, that's the life of a raiding guild when it's pushing to clear content at such a high pace, some are able to sustain it while others just decide they got the fun they wanted from the game and that's enough.

    Using the fact a few guilds have broken up and naming 2 of the obvious ones just to further your own thread and opinion isn't reason enough to misquote facts. Just so you see I am actually quoting here, I'll paste Killars facebook post for you:

    QUOTE:

    <Exodus> IS DEAD!?!

    Yes, I'll confirm the news here for anyone not in the loop or questioning the rumors. <Exodus> will no longer continue to function as a 25 man raiding guild. No plan to go 10 man as of yet, but that really doesn't matter because 25 man is what the hardcore raiding scene really is about and Exodus will no longer be competing in such a scene.

    Why? How? Well this game isn't to blame. In the last few years this game (despite many people quitting and guilds dying) isn't to blame for vodka/Exodus' demise it's the raiding community. I don't mean this is a pointing the finger sort of way, it's an inevitable sort of flaw in the competition of the top end raiders. You see... we've basically been killing ourselves off slowly since day 1. In the last few years we've certainly picked up the pace, but the "hardcore raider" is a dying breed and it's certainly becoming a more difficult breed to be a part of. What I mean by this is of course the time commitment and the level of shear dedication and determination it takes and costs to be at the very top. This isn't to poke fun, but to just shed light of why many people, and subsequently, many guilds will fall. Raiding for many many hours on end is fun, CAN be exciting, and at the end of it all can really prove who really wants that world first/us first/realm first the most. Unfortunately we (hardcore raiders) pushed too hard. Tier after tier we just keep adding to the insanity in both farming preparations and actual progressing. It's almost as if progression itself never really ends after a end tier boss dies. Combine this with Blizzard actually putting new content out faster, alts playing a big role, PTR/BETA, dailys, coins, BMAH, well... you just get lost in it all. Right now there are a few legit world first guilds left. The competition is slim because the competition is literally eating each other (well not that literally). Good luck to everyone left in the race for this expact, but I don't know how much longer this sort of thing can last.

    Am I done? Is this my good bye post to the raiding community? No haha no my friends I'm way too stubborn and foolish to actually use my knowledge to stop myself from the enjoyment I get from WoW and the community. This is something I've talked about since around Firelands. I had a clear realization of how much more TIME fit in the equation of "how to be world first" and although it bothered me I still enjoyed it as I was one of the few that had that TIME. I'm simply reiterating what I've said many times as it is the elaborate explanation I can give to people now that my guild(s) have died and I want people to avoid pointing fingers at a particular person or a particular situation.

    What's next for Killars? I dunno... "LFR Troll Rogue ilvl 532" I guess... I really don't know (which is kinda scary) but we'll see.




    As to the Fatboss stuff, they're still playing but they ain't doing guides any more, originally they were playing WoW and other games and just doing simple guides/coverage of the different games as they went along but due to the fact the Fatboss Raid guides became so much in demand they went with it, hell why not. More youtube views = income once you break a certain amount of views. It's just now after a couple years of constantly doing so they're breaking away from the guide thing and gonna start covering different kinds of things again. You only need look this stuff up to find out.

    Go youtube and look up: Fatboss Weekly - Week 30 - "An Announcement!"

    Back to the OP though, the tier isn't hard but it's just not faceroll like Cata was either. It requires guilds to actually work together again and the fact you can't just steam roll your way in seems to get to alot of people but this is how raiding should be, there shouldn't be some easy gap to traverse. You SHOULD have to put in some effort in normal/heroic raiding to see results. If you like steam rolling content stick to farming LFR and the bosses you are able to down on normal until the group as a whole is able to progress together.

    Bare in mind these world first guilds (not necessarily ones previously mentioned above) in general usually hit the new raids at the launch of new expansions in nothing better then blues and possibly those few epics they were lucky enough to get or craft or buy, they'll take breaks after a boss or maybe a few bosses so those who got loot can quickly gem, enchant, reforge etc before they crack on again with the next challenge and so on until the last boss is dead.

    I'm glad ToT is challenging, it's about time Blizz put a distinctive enough gap between LFR and normal/heroic raiding so that people don't just faceroll content and then moan a month or 2 down the line they're bored with nothing to do (every raid in Cata springs to mind) with only exception being Ragnaros. Effort equals reward should always be the point of a raid, not faceroll.

    It's like all this stuff about dailies and reputations etc, if you don't want to do it, DON'T! It's completely optional, there's plenty of ways to gear up or play WoW now that don't include grinding, it's not mandatory. A lot of the people that have supposedly left the game recently (incase you're hinting to the recent sub drop) was purely from the Asian market of players and the reason for that being, in Asia i.e Japan, China etc, they got so many F2P mmo's coming out on a weekly/monthly basis it just probably didn't make sense to them to pay subs over and over for WoW when they nuked the content and got bored faster then any region that's played so far and the reason for that? Because they play these games on such a regular basis free but also at a higher level of play then WoW offered. It just wasn't challenging enough to them or financially worth the subs and later payments for expansion upgrading.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Cant believe this is still going with those 4 persons still arguing determined that ToT normals is too hard 0_o
    Its like a circle jerk of really bad players. We pug alt/pugs every week on alts and full clear normals in one night easily. We are going to start heroics next week with pugs/alts, people who hardly play, clearing this amazing difficult content.

    Every think that it might be you that is so utterly bad that a nerf wouldnt help? I am not directing this at any one person but in general to the people complaining it is too hard. Someone put up a WOL early in the thread and the numbers were laughable at best because people didnt know how to play their own class.

    So you want to clear normal content but you cant even play the basic controls of your toon?

  17. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emi666 View Post
    Back to the OP though, the tier isn't hard but it's just not faceroll like Cata was either. It requires guilds to actually work together again and the fact you can't just steam roll your way in seems to get to alot of people but this is how raiding should be, there shouldn't be some easy gap to traverse. You SHOULD have to put in some effort in normal/heroic raiding to see results. If you like steam rolling content stick to farming LFR and the bosses you are able to down on normal until the group as a whole is able to progress together.

    Bare in mind these world first guilds (not necessarily ones previously mentioned above) in general usually hit the new raids at the launch of new expansions in nothing better then blues and possibly those few epics they were lucky enough to get or craft or buy, they'll take breaks after a boss or maybe a few bosses so those who got loot can quickly gem, enchant, reforge etc before they crack on again with the next challenge and so on until the last boss is dead.

    I'm glad ToT is challenging, it's about time Blizz put a distinctive enough gap between LFR and normal/heroic raiding so that people don't just faceroll content and then moan a month or 2 down the line they're bored with nothing to do (every raid in Cata springs to mind) with only exception being Ragnaros. Effort equals reward should always be the point of a raid, not faceroll.

    It's like all this stuff about dailies and reputations etc, if you don't want to do it, DON'T! It's completely optional, there's plenty of ways to gear up or play WoW now that don't include grinding, it's not mandatory. A lot of the people that have supposedly left the game recently (incase you're hinting to the recent sub drop) was purely from the Asian market of players and the reason for that being, in Asia i.e Japan, China etc, they got so many F2P mmo's coming out on a weekly/monthly basis it just probably didn't make sense to them to pay subs over and over for WoW when they nuked the content and got bored faster then any region that's played so far and the reason for that? Because they play these games on such a regular basis free but also at a higher level of play then WoW offered. It just wasn't challenging enough to them or financially worth the subs and later payments for expansion upgrading.
    The only people claiming they were bored at the end of DS were the heroic raiders who had already cleared the place many times many months before. Also, it's funny you bring up mandatory activities. What happens when you can't down a boss? You either get more skill, or you get more gear. Since most everyone is bad, according to people's reasoning here, the other thing left is getting more gear. How would you do that? Lo and behold, the only upgrades for you are gated behind rep and dailies. Oh, but let's check the AH/BMAH! What, you don't have a bank toon funneling thousands of gold to your main to purchase gear? How bad of you! Go farm, you git!

    Look, personally I think ToT is perfect. However, I recognize my skill is a little higher than those other 9 lowly peons I choose to associate myself with. Sarcasm aside, I realize that my personal world (of warcraft) view is not a reflection, nor indicative of, the wow population as a whole, and that Blizzard needs to do something to encourage people into raiding. Having a high collective group difficulty is not the first thing I would choose to address, but what do I know, I don't have Blizzard's massive amount of playerbase info at my fingertips.
    Last edited by NRL1515; 2013-05-17 at 02:00 AM.
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  18. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Its like a circle jerk of really bad players. We pug alt/pugs every week on alts and full clear normals in one night easily. We are going to start heroics next week with pugs/alts, people who hardly play, clearing this amazing difficult content.

    Every think that it might be you that is so utterly bad that a nerf wouldnt help? I am not directing this at any one person but in general to the people complaining it is too hard. Someone put up a WOL early in the thread and the numbers were laughable at best because people didnt know how to play their own class.

    So you want to clear normal content but you cant even play the basic controls of your toon?
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  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    The only people claiming they were bored at the end of DS were the heroic raiders who had already cleared the place many times many months before. Also, it's funny you bring up mandatory activities. What happens when you can't down a boss? You either get more skill, or you get more gear. Since most everyone is bad, according to people's reasoning here, the other thing left is getting more gear. How would you do that? Lo and behold, the only upgrades for you are gated behind rep and dailies. Oh, but let's check the AH/BMAH! What, you don't have a bank toon funneling thousands of gold to your main to purchase gear? How bad of you! Go farm, you git!
    SO learn your class. Really setting up a toon correctly is not difficult but has a profound effect on your gameplay. I fixed a friends UI, and keybinded for him, he went from HORRIBAD to decent and still needed to learn priority in a rotation. He wiped on easy bosses and i looked at their numbers, changed out some bad's and boom they full cleared. That isnt rocket science bro.

  20. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    The only people claiming they were bored at the end of DS were the heroic raiders who had already cleared the place many times many months before. Also, it's funny you bring up mandatory activities. What happens when you can't down a boss? You either get more skill, or you get more gear. Since most everyone is bad, according to people's reasoning here, the other thing left is getting more gear. How would you do that? Lo and behold, the only upgrades for you are gated behind rep and dailies. Oh, but let's check the AH/BMAH! What, you don't have a bank toon funneling thousands of gold to your main to purchase gear? How bad of you! Go farm, you git!
    I was bored to tears. But that was mostly the fact that there were only 8 bosses, and the two "hardest" fights were some of the most mind-numbing fights I have ever seen. There was nothing "inspiring" about that instance. Spine was just a pointless, annoying grind, and Madness was a pointless, gimmicky fight.

    Look, personally I think ToT is perfect. However, I recognize my skill is a little higher than those other 9 lowly peons I choose to associate myself with. Sarcasm aside, I realize that my personal world (of warcraft) view is not a reflection, nor indicative of, the wow population as a whole, and that Blizzard needs to do something to encourage people into raiding. Having a high collective group difficulty is not the first thing I would choose to address, but what do I know, I don't have Blizzard's massive amount of playerbase info at my fingertips.
    I'm working on Heroic Lei Shen at the moment. Normal was a joke for me. It wasn't a joke for the guild I came from, however. There were some damn good players in that guild (now defunct) who were carrying other, less-skilled players. But we were friends. I am still ambivalent about my decision to leave for progression.
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