Selfless Suicide

[Raleina]

That sort of attitude disgusts me.
Not all people that commit suicide are just doing so on a whim. In fact i'd argue a large majority, like myself planned it for weeks; settled any finances so my next of kin, who i hadn't seen in years would not find debts and news of my death at the door.
I made damn sure that i wouldn't leave anyone in the shit.
I didn't go through with it in the end, because someone basically saved my life with a conversation, but if they hadn't and i'd gone through with it i wouldn't have left a single person in pain or with stuff to deal with because of my death.

Not in pain? Are you serious? How about your family and parents that have to deal with the loss of their child. My cousing killed himself a few years back and it destroyed his parents completely i have seen it first hand what happend to them and i doubt they will ever recover from their pain of losing their child. Imagine you starting a family and a few years later your son or daughter commits suicide you wouldnt feel anything when they are gone? The way you wrote that post you seem like a heartless bastard and a coward

You sir YOUR attitude disgusts me

[The Casualty]

That sort of attitude disgusts me.
Not all people that commit suicide are just doing so on a whim. In fact i'd argue a large majority, like myself planned it for weeks; settled any finances so my next of kin, who i hadn't seen in years would not find debts and news of my death at the door.
I made damn sure that i wouldn't leave anyone in the shit.
I didn't go through with it in the end, because someone basically saved my life with a conversation, but if they hadn't and i'd gone through with it i wouldn't have left a single person in pain or with stuff to deal with because of my death.

I am not arguing in favor of the poster you quoted's attitude, however:

Although you (and others in a similar situation) may have have settled their affairs and tried to soften the blow, you would be hard pressed to argue that you "wouldn't have left a single person in pain", nor do you (or anyone) have the right or ability to prevent others from feeling how they will. Rational or not, you are allowed to feel depressed, and they are allowed to be angry, sad, disappointed etc...over the outcome. All feelings are valid.

Irrelevant given the the point of the thread however. In the end, right or wrong, most people are taking their life because of their own personal circumstances, not for the greater good of others. It doesn't matter if they don't want you to, how badly you would be missed, or what you would leave behind - for the sake of discussion of the reasoning behind the action.

[Coffer]

How about your family and parents that have to deal with the loss of their child.

They are nowhere near as relevant as you think.

[Raleina]

They are nowhere near as relevant as you think.

Relevent or not, i was really clear about what i said, the reason why i replied to it in the first place was because of that single line he wrote "i wouldn't have left a single person in pain" you might want to really read what i said. Thats what im pissed over nothing else, if he had the desire to kill himself in the past thats his choice, but DONT EVER ever think you wont hurt someone with your actions no matter how well you plan it

[The Casualty]

They are nowhere near as relevant as you think.

Perhaps not when deciding whether to commit the act or not, however, the grief is just as valid and relevant to those family and friends as the person committing suicide's grief is to themselves.

[Deleted]

Why do I wake up every day to evil faces spitting in my mouth and molesting me? No medication stops them and nobody believes they exist.

Committed, schizophrenia, what? I need more coffee.

[Anjerith]

No matter what the scenario, Suicide is you giving up and wanting to get past a difficult choice you'd rather not make. It is *always* selfish.

Now, that said, Selfish is a multi-faceted word at the least. While your giving up and not wanting to take the harder road of living (I saw someone mention killing yourself to save other hostages, that is you not wanting to have to live with the fact that someone else did the same. Its also a ridiculous example since one less hostage would dramatically decrease the criminals chances of success, anyhoo..) many suicide minded people have the idea in their heads that, with them gone, some situation will be better for some person.

This is, of course, total bullshit. The Best Case scenario is that you give the people you wanted to help a MAJOR PTSD issue. The worst case is that you mentally destroy them and they in-turn destroy themselves.

But, again, it comes down to your desire to look at being selfish as a bad thing or not.

[chaotus]

Anything selfless would require you to not know the outcome of your actions beforehand. Otherwise it's not selfless. In the case of the bank robber and the hostages, the hostage that blows his head off is still making a decision to save people by using his life, that's not selfless. It's not selfish, but it's not selfless. don't think selfless suicide is possible, you will always know if you are committing suicide as opposed to a freak accident ending your life.

[teddytous]

It's funny there's so many people defending suicide... There are no problems that justify you not wanting to live ever again - apart maybe from extreme permanent pain couple with imminent death.

I have seen people with the worst of the worst. The most udderly devastating lives imaginable, coupled with every disorder you care to rhyme off and worse come back from attempting to genuinely kill themselves and become functioning happy people who would like to keep living. And if they can, guess what, we arn't that different.

People who do this arn't level headed clear thinking people who just decide that this is the right time to end their life. They are disturbed, scared, frightened people who have been backed into a corner by their own damaged minds to the point where they believe not existing would be better.

[Neetz]

I couldn't put it any better teddy. Like I said a lot of people are in denial about their illness when it comes to depression, thats why a lot of the time they seem 'alone' without any help and left alone in that corner their mind backed them into. Depression isn't physical like a stroke so people can't 'watch out for the signs' but if you think someone is depressed, don't back away, help them.

[Melanieshaman]

Yes, that is what I am saying. I'm not condoning the abuse, I'm not saying it is okay, but i'm being realistic. You are more likely to be abused or bullied as a trans-gender individual. That is as much as a fact as getting wet by jumping into a swimming pool.

The difference is, jumping into the swimming pool and getting wet is something you can't avoid, however society can avoid the abuse, but coming to terms with the whole process. Remember, all things take time. Slavery took its toll, and even long after it was abolished, Black people still suffered brutally, and the same could be said for any minority.

I totally understand what you're saying, I just don't understand how in this day and age, when humanity claims to be more savvy, and "enlightened" that they can't let people live the life they feel they have to. My transitioning ONLY effects me, and to an extent my immediate family (It ultimately was at least in part the reason my marriage fell apart-and i knew that would happen).

If my pointing out a social fact makes you think I'm targeting and abusing trans-gender individuals, then I give up.

AGAIN, I never said YOU were targeting anyone, i just don't understand why I should expect it because so much of society is ignorant.

As I said, I'm against the process, not from a religious point of view, but because nature, as I said above, has had trillions of years to get this process right. Like it or not, you were chosen to be a Fe/Male so you have to come to terms with that.

I am not even going to get into the biological reasons why scientists think trans people even exist, there's research out there that says it's a sort of miswiring between hormones in utero, and ultimate physical development... it's still not perfect. oh and WHO chose that I was to be born male??

My feeling is that because of the growth in trans-gender technology, and social acceptance (While it is still a Taboo) that is it becoming more common place, and more people are going for it simply because the opportunity is there, rather then because they suffer from some condition. Men & Women who wished to be the opposite gender have lived for thousands of years, getting by with just cross-dressing.

this is comical... why would anyone choose to be trans because the 'technology' is there? knowing the kind of abuse, ridicule and prejudice we experience? Yes, 'dual soul' people have been around for a long time, and there was no "technology" so they HAD to just "cross dress" (actually live as the gender they believe they were- cross dressing sounds like a part time/choice thing to me).

I don't understand WHY being trans is taboo... because someone says it is? I think being straight should be considered taboo because it's close minded and sexist..make sense? no? yeah, neither does bigotry toward trans people. We are FAR from an enlightened, savvy society.

[Strakha]

I think it is very selfish, but it is also very personal. If someone is that unhappy, perhaps they are doing society a favor in some way as well.

[Hyve]

Despite all those millions of years (not trillions, the universe has been around only for over 13 billions of years)

A lot of scientists, along with individuals are starting to realise that the universe must be a lot older then that, for the sheer possibility of all of our existence's to be totally luck.

You think the possibility that our planet formed from pure energy in a massive explosion, cooled down, formed an eco-system to support life and then its inhabitants went on to an extremely diverse evolution chain that has resulted in all of the technology and species we have today, and that all happened in a mere 13 Billion years? Seriously... Do some people even do the math on these things?

-Hermaphroditism only refers to gonads, sexual organs.

I'm not quite sure why this is relevant to the conversation, but I am aware of the fact. However, what also has to be understood is that Male & Female Minds are completely different. The wiring, chemical production systems, even to the basics of emotions are totally different. No matter how much you try, you're not going to change that by dressing as the opposite gender, having surgery to appear more masculine / feminine, or by taking hormones.

By pure definition, and not meaning any offence, that makes you half-complete. For some, in their life that is enough, and I'm fine with that. That is their choice and I see no reason why my views and opinions on the matter should interfere with their lives, albeit I think it shouldn't be available on the Nation Health Service, but there are hundreds of other things that also fit that list.

What do you make of these 3 things put together?

When put all together, you get a mix of Male & Female, because we're not talking about growth from a few cells, into a Male or Female, we're talking about changing cells, mental statuses, electrical wiring, even our nervous system (which is slightly different in Men & Women)! Put all three together with science, you get the results we're seeing today. Incomplete Men or Women in the process of swapping gender. Something, that with todays technology, is impossible to complete.

There has to be an understanding here. What we're talking about is changing the very foundations of an individual, despite certain tendencies being proud in an individual, that doesn't make good cause for gender alteration.

Imagine it like your computer. You've a computer from the 1980's, which the is Male. Now you've got a computer from 2010, which is the female. Discount the needless fact that one is superior to the other for this argument. While both are computers (as we are humans) they're totally different internally and externally. You can change a few things, but eventually, you'll hit a part where incompatibility prevents the computer from functioning.

If you want to make the 1980's computer 100% compatible, you've got to totally upgrade it to the 2010 model, which is something, in humans we can't do at this point. That is my concern. We've yet to see enough data and information based on how this impacts their lives. It is their life, so they're free to make that choice if they desire, but all I am saying is, we're messing with something that we've got very little data on and very little knowledge.

[felcommander]

A father commiting suicide after having a long term life insurance plan to make sure his wife and children have a place to live.

[Deleted]

No, what's selfish is to demand another to endure an intolerable existence, just to spare families, friends, and enemies a bit of soul-searching.

-David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas

In other words, sometimes suicide shows the selfishness of the people in your support network in that they didn't have time for you when you needed them. Granted the degree of your depression is not always fully apparent but many times I've begged people to be with me and to talk told them I'm feeling so down I feel like I'm going crazy and they will blow me off.

Suicide is selfish, because it's all about you. You are ending your own life for your own reasons.
Selfish doesn't mean "evil", it's normal to be selfish and even healthy to some extent.


But the quotes above are questionable at best. "Soul-searching" etc is all just blaming other people for your problems. It's normal for other people to separate themselves from you, because they are their own person. They have their own lives. It's healthy to separate yourself, it's the opposite of being co-dependent (which is not good for your mental health).

They're not responsible for your problems (unless in very special circumstances, e.g. the rapist who raped you). Still, it's your responsiblity to get help and find a more healthy living environment because, again, it's your life.

The quotes imply that in reality you kill yourself to punish others for some supposed sin. Which is stupid, basically. Either, they're not nice people, in which case they're not gonna care. Or, they're nice people onto which you just transferred your problems. (Aren't children of people who committed suicide more likely to also be depressed lateron and commit suicide? Congratulations in that case.)

((That said, I'm not implying that you shouldn't be there for someone in need. But in general if your friends aren't there for you, either you have the wrong friends in which case it's on you to find more suitable relationships, or you're asking too much of them. People have their own lives and issues and you can't always expect them to jump when you call.))

Researchers at Johns Hopkins Children’s Center found that children who are under 18 when their parents commit suicide are three times as likely as children with living parents to later commit suicide themselves. The likelihood increases when the parent who commits suicide is the mother.

[Gamdwelf]

A father commiting suicide after having a long term life insurance plan to make sure his wife and children have a place to live.

I think the wife and family would prefer to have their father/husband than money.

[Snes]

It's selfish expecting a person, especially a person whom you love, to live through a life of pain and unhappiness.

Except that it doesn't need to be a life of it. Suicide is a permanent solution to a problem that is often temporary.

[Coffer]

often

There's your problem. There are situations where, shockingly, it's the best option. And no, I don't condone it otherwise.

[Polarthief]

10 people being held hostage, the kidnappers provide a weapon and tell them either they all die, or one of them commits suicide and then the rest are free. That's selfless in my book for example.

In said scenario, if, somehow, they are 100% telling the truth (which, let's be honest, that'll never happen outside of a show/movie), I'd be selfish and wait to see if anyone else would. If NO ONE would, well, then yeah, I would because I'm gonna die anyways, right? Might as well save 9 other people.