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  1. #1

    How much haste is to much haste

    Recent simc's for gosup destro have haste crit mastery listed for best itemization's for single target. My question is, for single target, what is the sweet spot I wanna hit for haste?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    Recent simc's for gosup destro have haste crit mastery listed for best itemization's for single target. My question is, for single target, what is the sweet spot I wanna hit for haste?
    There isn't one. Keep on stacking even past 10k haste rating.

  3. #3
    There is however a point where haste will become less then others, that is to what im asking. The haste value where other stats start pulling ahead. I'm more or less just looking to see where people are stopping haste on gosup destro and starting crit/mastery stacking

  4. #4
    Brewmaster AutomaticBadger's Avatar
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    Surely that would just be the point where cast time = global cooldown within Time Warp?
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  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Remember that haste has benefit other than incinerate. Chaos bolt, immolate, rain of fire, trinkets and meta gem and finally mana regen all benefit from haste far past the point where incinerate hits the gcd.

  6. #6
    sigh....cryptic answers. Yes, there is a value short of the global where other stats are pulling ahead. At 10,443 haste haste's value goes a good portion below crit. You can say to keep stacking haste, but there is a spot where haste does not over value others. Thus a sweet spot. Curious as to where others are stopping haste for this and starting other itemization's

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    There is however a point where haste will become less then others, that is to what im asking. The haste value where other stats start pulling ahead. I'm more or less just looking to see where people are stopping haste on gosup destro and starting crit/mastery stacking
    Haste is still better than the other two stats (pure single target) in my testing way past even 15-20k.
    Hence my answer that you should stack Haste always.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 03:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AutomaticBadger View Post
    Surely that would just be the point where cast time = global cooldown within Time Warp?
    Nope. Keep in mind there is no real point where haste stops benefiting Chaos Bolt/Rain of Fire, as well as pet damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 03:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    sigh....cryptic answers. Yes, there is a value short of the global where other stats are pulling ahead. At 10,443 haste haste's value goes a good portion below crit. You can say to keep stacking haste, but there is a spot where haste does not over value others. Thus a sweet spot. Curious as to where others are stopping haste for this and starting other itemization's
    Well if you believe that there is an upper limit on how much haste you can have before it's below the value of the other two, why even ask the question?

    That said, that doesn't jive with my theorycrafting whatsoever.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    sigh....cryptic answers. Yes, there is a value short of the global where other stats are pulling ahead. At 10,443 haste haste's value goes a good portion below crit. You can say to keep stacking haste, but there is a spot where haste does not over value others. Thus a sweet spot. Curious as to where others are stopping haste for this and starting other itemization's
    I'm confused. If you already know the answer, why did you make a thread to ask this question? You seem pretty sure that "there is a sweet spot" and that it's "after 10,443 haste".

    furthermore:

    Chaos bolt, immolate, rain of fire, trinkets and meta gem and finally mana regen all benefit from haste far past the point where incinerate hits the gcd.
    This is why you keep stacking it.

  9. #9
    I asked because the data seems to suggest that there is. I was curious as to if others stopped and started going a different itemization.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    I asked because the data seems to suggest that there is. I was curious as to if others stopped and started going a different itemization.
    You'd probably be better off:
    A) Posting about this in the dedicated discussion forum for Destro (stickied up at the top)
    B) Rather than posting a question, posting your results and how you got them, and starting a discussion on stats that way.
    C) Being upfront and not cryptic about your intentions and not misleading others in an attempt to illicit an expected response

    If we don't know the context behind a post, how are we supposed to know what sort of discussion you want? It appeared to all of us that you were asking a simple question on how much haste is too much haste, and not looking for corroboration of your personal results.

  11. #11
    I personally stopped at 31-ish% raid buffed as that is the time when backdraft incinerates are less than GCD. I know the whole "But chaos bolts, rain of fire, pets!" thing with theorycrafters, but I am worthless with ground based aoe first off and it proved an actual loss for me because of my worthlessness with it.

    However, now I generally run gosac/sup (usually sac) with a mastery heavy build to facilitate easier cross spec with demo.

  12. #12
    ^^ First decent reply that wasn't full of fuckery whole post

  13. #13
    You are asking a question that isint easily answered though, if you wanna really really really dumb it down it would be like this.

    Brusalk is correct in saying that it is the strongest stat even into absoloutely insane ratings (in my findings its still strongest past 15000 so far, i cannot comment on 20k+)

    Haste stops gaining value when you as a player can not react to the rotation fast enough (This could be 5%-45%).

    In general you will start running into issues when you get the meta gem because it really mind fucks rain of fire and how to spend backdraft, but i would say that with raid buffed 30% haste the rotation is still easily managable with close to 100% uptime on Rof.

    Long and short of it together no one can give you the exact answer you want simply because what you want to hear is a definitive number which does not exist as it is your desire to play the spec to its maximum that will drive you to play with stupid haste levels as the rotation does become immensely fast paced for not that much reward sometimes.
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  14. #14
    the easy answer is, whenever you feel that you have enough haste, you'll have enough haste.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    ^^ First decent reply that wasn't full of fuckery whole post
    There's nothing "full of fuckery" about it. Brusalk answered your question. You simply rejected the answer of one of the most prominent Destruction theorycrafters and waited until you got a reply that agreed with you.

    Also, there is a thread dedicated to Destruction questions like this here

    For single target, there is no attainable point in current gear where you should stop stacking Haste. Multi target, Mastery may be better, but for entirely different reasons.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-05-16 at 01:30 PM.

  16. #16
    Some rough logical reasoning here:

    Rain of Fire: gets ZERO benefit from mastery, and crit only affects the damage and not the ember generation. Haste does though only reduce the spells duration which leads to more GCDs spent.

    Pet: gets ZERO benefit from mastery, crit and haste should have similar effect however haste requires less rating for 1% so haste edges it out

    Immolate: Benefits from all stats, but haste edges the other ones out due to above mentioned rating.

    Conflagrate: gets ZERO benefit from haste, crit edges mastery out due to emberbit generation.

    Incinerate: gets moderate benefit from haste after hitting GCD cap with hastebuffs/procs/backdraft, crit edges mastery out due to emberbit generation.

    Chaos Bolt: Mastery wins hands down in all situations for this spell, haste edges crit out due to above mentioned rating.

    Shadowburn: Mastery wins hands down in all situations for this spell, gets ZERO benefit from haste and thus crit is your secondary choice.

    Trinkets: RPPM trinkets all scale with haste (and some with crit)

    Fire and Brimstone: Mastery wins hands down with haste and then crit followed

    Summary:
    RoF, Pet, immolate and trinkets scale supreme with haste
    Incinerate scale supreme with haste up till a certain point then crit
    Conflagrate scale supreme with crit
    CB and SB scale supreme with mastery
    FnB scales supreme with mastery

    Conclusion: What stat is going to matter will be what source of spells are the highest percentage of your spell breakdown on a given fight (and the worth of your trinkets)
    Last edited by Micke; 2013-05-16 at 06:24 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Micke View Post
    Some rough logical reasoning here:

    Rain of Fire: gets ZERO benefit from mastery, and crit only affects the damage and not the ember generation. Haste does though only reduce the spells duration which leads to more GCDs spent.

    Pet: gets ZERO benefit from mastery, crit and haste should have similar effect however haste requires less rating for 1% so haste edges it out

    Immolate: Benefits from all stats, but haste edges the other ones out due to above mentioned rating.

    Conflagrate: gets ZERO benefit from haste, crit edges mastery out due to emberbit generation.

    Incinerate: gets moderate benefit from haste after hitting GCD cap with hastebuffs/procs/backdraft, crit edges mastery out due to emberbit generation.

    Chaos Bolt: Mastery wins hands down in all situations for this spell, haste edges crit out due to above mentioned rating.

    Shadowburn: Mastery wins hands down in all situations for this spell, gets ZERO benefit from haste and thus crit is your secondary choice.

    Trinkets: RPPM trinkets all scale with haste (and some with crit)

    Fire and Brimstone: Mastery wins hands down with haste and then crit followed

    Summary:
    RoF, Pet, immolate and trinkets scale supreme with haste
    Incinerate scale supreme with haste up till a certain point then crit
    Conflagrate scale supreme with crit
    CB and SB scale supreme with mastery
    FnB scales supreme with mastery

    Conclusion: What stat is going to matter will be what source of spells are the highest percentage of your spell breakdown on a given fight (and the worth of your trinkets)
    You have a flaw in your reasoning which stems from the assumption that 1% of one stat is the same overall DPS gain for a spell as 1% of another.

    Also, instant casts do benefit from Haste insofar as you are above the GCD hard-cap of 1 sec.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    ^^ First decent reply that wasn't full of fuckery whole post
    Interesting to support his post when he admits (twice?) to not being able to handle 1/5th of the rotation (counting ember-consuming spells as 1) and that's an important 1/5th of the rotation.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    You have a flaw in your reasoning which stems from the assumption that 1% of one stat is the same overall DPS gain for a spell as 1% of another.

    Also, instant casts do benefit from Haste insofar as you are above the GCD hard-cap of 1 sec.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure conflag and SB has a 1 sec gcd? Or that may have been a beta thing or a weird dream

    And yes rough reasoning is rough, but for the spells where I noted it 1% crit would never be 40% better than 1% haste (until gcd caps) so end result should still be reliable, also it is with a spell by spell basis and destro spec in mind only.
    Last edited by Micke; 2013-05-16 at 07:39 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Micke View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure conflag and SB has a 1 sec gcd? Or that may have been a beta thing or a weird dream

    And yes rough reasoning is rough, but for the spells where I noted it 1% crit would never be 40% better than 1% haste (until gcd caps) so end result should still be reliable, also it is with a spell by spell basis and destro spec in mind only.
    I think you're right about the GCD part. Thanks for correcting me there. (I'm not 100% sure either way, but I'll test it to make sure later when I get home)

    As for your other note, I was referring mainly to this part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Micke
    Incinerate: gets moderate benefit from haste after hitting GCD cap with hastebuffs/procs/backdraft, crit edges mastery out due to emberbit generation.
    You're making the judgement that ember generation is more important than mastery's increase to direct damage done.

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