1. #1

    Elemental: The disconnect between SimC and reality?

    I have always trusted Simcraft and the results it generates. However, I have reached a point (il 526 with 4-set and legendary meta) where Simcraft is giving me stat weights of; Int 4.78, Mastery 2.58, Haste 2.19, Crit 1.98. This means that Simcraft recommends a full Mastery re-gem. Plugging these stat weights into AMR (an excellent tool when used with custom weights) gives me an 'optimal' profile that swaps 2293 Int (2523 SP and 0.91% crit) for 13.97% mastery.

    When I re-sim and compare the two profiles (1 target, light movement) I find:

    Current 'standard' gemming (Int, Int/M, Int/Spirit) - 156,969k

    SimC optimal gemming (Int/M, Mastery, M/Spirit) - 157,337k

    These results are for a single target encounter. I think any kind of AoE will skew the results even further towards Mastery.

    So far, so good. Gemming optimal Mastery gives a small single-target DPS increase and a larger multi-target increase. The problem arises when I look at how top Elemental Shaman are gemming. Every single one seems to follow the standard protocol. What do they know that Simcraft doesn't? Do the stat weights shift back towards Int at even higher ilevels? Or are all these top players just doing it wrong?

    Should I gem as the sims suggest, or follow the example of top players?

    N.B - I'm aware that 5.3 is imminent and the LvB and LB changes will shift stat weights around again, for everybody. I still think this is an interesting question for now.

  2. #2
    I gem for mastery in yellows but still prefer full int gems, and have no problems on either single target or multi target fights.

    As you can see, I pulled high numbers on both a single target fight and one where you get to lol chain lightning spam. I don't think it makes a huge difference how you actually gem compared to int or more mastery, it matters how you manage your spells and get them out at correct times.

    Can't post logs since this is first post on mmo, but Adurp - Addiction - US Spirestone

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adurp View Post
    I gem for mastery in yellows but still prefer full int gems, and have no problems on either single target or multi target fights.

    As you can see, I pulled high numbers on both a single target fight and one where you get to lol chain lightning spam. I don't think it makes a huge difference how you actually gem compared to int or more mastery, it matters how you manage your spells and get them out at correct times.

    Can't post logs since this is first post on mmo, but Adurp - Addiction - US Spirestone
    Nice logs. Here is the link for the lazy: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/410/

    The more quality players contributing on here the better, welcome.

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  4. #4
    I'm personally gemming and reforging away from mastery. There is evidence that going Int,Int/Haste,Int/Spirit will provide more dps over a mastery build. This is with 4pc + meta also. Ikestorm is the one that brought this up on Totemspot that it has more to do with RPPM trinkets and the formula that goes into the proc rate. Higher haste = more procs.

    This contrary to what Simc will tell you to do. http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...?t=6978&page=2 for the discussion.

    I'm not saying this is the only way or even the right way to gear. Each has it's strengths though and may depend if your doing 10 or 25. Food for thought though.

  5. #5
    You should not get a stat weight then reforge fully to mastery because its a little higher then haste at your current data point.

    Try reforging your toon from bits that dont effect your hit cap that fully transition haste to mastery, do this for a few peices then resim. See where it sits you, if its higher, try a slightly different reforge with a bit more mastery and see if its higher still.

    You will find there are certain points where it will say you should reforge haste but if you do you will go down in DPS. I sit at a point where haste is .05 above mastery at all times, and I keep adding more mastery, and the weights stay exactly the same... If I add more haste my dps as per sim goes down... I'm at about 527 ILvL.

    Also even if you get it a bit wrong, mastery is >>>>>> haste on aoe so you aren't missing out on alot considering the fights in the tier.

  6. #6
    under 400 dps, 0.234% dps gain, i don't think top ele even care, the dps they gain on 12 out of the 13 bosses is lost at primordius if they get more than 1 mastery buff with that gemming.

    as you said 5.3 is coming and we'll most likely be wanting haste more than mastery, rng on each pull will be more of a difference than that re-gemming.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid1 View Post
    I'm personally gemming and reforging away from mastery. There is evidence that going Int,Int/Haste,Int/Spirit will provide more dps over a mastery build. This is with 4pc + meta also. Ikestorm is the one that brought this up on Totemspot that it has more to do with RPPM trinkets and the formula that goes into the proc rate. Higher haste = more procs.

    This contrary to what Simc will tell you to do. http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthre...?t=6978&page=2 for the discussion.

    I'm not saying this is the only way or even the right way to gear. Each has it's strengths though and may depend if your doing 10 or 25. Food for thought though.
    Thing is, while haste may be slightly, slightly better for single target , it's utter trash on aoe, where mastery just outshines everything.
    And difference on how much better haste is then mastery on single target is really ignorable.
    Last edited by Ellger; 2013-05-16 at 05:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Adurp View Post
    I gem for mastery in yellows but still prefer full int gems, and have no problems on either single target or multi target fights.

    As you can see, I pulled high numbers on both a single target fight and one where you get to lol chain lightning spam. I don't think it makes a huge difference how you actually gem compared to int or more mastery, it matters how you manage your spells and get them out at correct times.

    Can't post logs since this is first post on mmo, but Adurp - Addiction - US Spirestone
    My question is, why?

    If your stat weights reach 2 Mastery > 1 Int, gemming 160 Int instead of Int/M is suboptimal. I understand that the difference is tiny, and you pull great numbers anyway, but you are leaving some potential damage on the table. That seems really unusual for min-maxing top players.

    For those talking about Haste vs Mastery, it doesn't really matter. I have a feeling that if 2 Haste > 1 Int, people would still be gemming Int instead. I'm more interested in why no-one at the top level is taking advantage of a potential DPS increase. Is it laziness? Force of habit? Are their stat weights just radically different to my results?

    I'm just trying to find out why people aren't changing their gem strategy when SimC suggests a better way, and if it's a logical reason or not.
    Last edited by thegempolice; 2013-05-16 at 08:27 AM.

  9. #9
    Because it is not simply 5 gems what makes those guys the top players.

    Also you are only looking at one single dps number, while rng will leave you within a range of +- 15k around that number.

    Truly, I sometimes doubt that this whole min/max discussion is really beneficial. In reality, does anyone do over 1000 fights, take the WoL data to measure the dps distribution and the average and conclude that the suggested gemming from SimC actually provided a dps boost of - let us say - 1500? That wont happen, so there is no way to verify whether you actually gain such a small boost.

    For me, all the tools can only help you to find the right directions and tendencies for gearing, but not to answer the question how much dps you actually will achieve in reality.

  10. #10
    Blademaster Feuerbart's Avatar
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    First of all you need to understand that SimC doesn´t tell you to go all out on mastery in any way.

    The scaling factors just tell you what your dps increase per stat would be if you add 1000 of that stat. Nothing more and nothing less.
    Since you talk of gemming an reforging you don´t simply want to add stats but you want to change them around.

    So for the comparison of reforging haste<>mastery you could tell SimC to run a reforge plot with these 2 stats. That way you could see how the change would pan out.

    Secondly you always need to take single target, multi target, low movement and high movement situations into account. Between these the value of secondary stats changes. The relative value of int over these stays more or less the same. So int is the allround stat if you want to call it that.

    On a side note my test with radical secondary stat changing have never resulted in significant changes in overall DPS for single target situations.
    On my old main ( Warlock ) the difference of 3k haste <> 3k mastery was 1k DPS which for most players ist offset by fight situations and personal errors.

    Personally I am running with int > ~5k haste > mastery > haste > crit with an actual itemleve of 509 at the moment.

  11. #11
    stop simcrafting and start playing the game, i read mmo champion forums quite alot and always people are talking about simcraft and how to improve their dps, if you really wanna improve your dps, just go play, do LFR, raid w/e, it will make it alot better than spending hours with simcraft.

    also simcraft is not always correct, so take it with a grain of salt.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellger View Post
    Thing is, while haste may be slightly, slightly better for single target , it's utter trash on aoe, where mastery just outshines everything.
    And difference on how much better haste is then mastery on single target is really ignorable.
    That's a pretty bold statement. I'd really ask you to give logs that prove this. This week my AoE damage was the same if not higher than previous weeks. As long as you keep a FS up on the boss you are still taking advantage of the increased proc rate from trinkets.

  13. #13
    Have you tried running reforge plots of int vs mastery and int vs haste? (like 1000 int versus 2000 mastery)

    Because the stat weights only tell you how much your dps would if you ADDED more of those stats to your current profile: IE adding 2k mastery is more than adding 1k int - But that does not reflect what would happen to your dps if you swapped stats around as in regemming (losing int to gain mastery or haste) - because stat weights are relative and once you start dropping one or raising the other - all their weights can change.

    TL/DR run the reforge plots instead.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by thegempolice View Post
    My question is, why?

    If your stat weights reach 2 Mastery > 1 Int, gemming 160 Int instead of Int/M is suboptimal. I understand that the difference is tiny, and you pull great numbers anyway, but you are leaving some potential damage on the table. That seems really unusual for min-maxing top players.

    For those talking about Haste vs Mastery, it doesn't really matter. I have a feeling that if 2 Haste > 1 Int, people would still be gemming Int instead. I'm more interested in why no-one at the top level is taking advantage of a potential DPS increase. Is it laziness? Force of habit? Are their stat weights just radically different to my results?

    I'm just trying to find out why people aren't changing their gem strategy when SimC suggests a better way, and if it's a logical reason or not.
    I haven't actually simcrafted my character this expansion, I just sit on dummies for lengthy periods of time on off-raid nights trying different gem/enchant combinations until I find one that works for what I want to do + trinket procs and such. The biggest reason I shy away from haste, is currently with the trinket setup I'm using and the meta gem + Hero, I sit at a 0.6 second cast time on LvB during my initial ascendance.

    I try to min/max yes, but the 1k dps increases for changing the whole gem setup mean almost nothing since there is no "patchwerk" style fight this tier. There will be no point this entire tier where I will sit on the boss and have to do a rotation that may or may not give me an extra 1k dps.

    Every single fight has some gimmick, where I would have to change gems/enchants every boss to be able to pull maximum dps. Take Jin'Rokh for example, it would be more beneficial to have more haste than mastery, since it is a single target fight, and when I would pop hero, I would probably not get a shado-pan assault proc. Durumu, it would be beneficial for me to just gem full mastery, since a lot of the extra damage I do is on Ice Walls (almost 58% of my damage on that fight this week).

    Now when you say min/maxing, you are most likely simcrafting a fight that we will never have. Damage modifications would change our stat weights, buff fights (like primordius) would change as well. So as for top players going a certain way, most of them go for one that will work throughout all of the instance and not one instance of a fight.

  15. #15
    The point is that with int gemming, you simply take the middle way.

    Mastery/Haste stat weights vary with and depend a lot on EB/PE choice, light and heavy movement, single and multitarget. And those SimC results still do not take properly into account: encounter mechanics like dmg multiplier, immunity effects etc.

    However, afaik, Simc tells you for every profile and talent choice that int is of constantly high value. And since simc is the best available tool, you simply go for the "standard solution" which seems to be int stacking.

    Otherwise, if you want to squeeze those max possible dps according to Simc, you should start to regem, re-enchant and reforge every encounter and every time you change a talent.

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